Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

[contendershooter]

Last year I proposed a change to mimic Mississippi's muzzleloader season here which would allow the use of single shot rifles and shotguns during the muzzleloader season, being that muzzleloaders are not really primitive weapons any longer and a single shot rifle or handgun chambered in a .35 caliber or larger cartridge that was a previous black powder cartridge like a 38/40, 44/40, 45/70, current handgun cartridge or a single shot shotgun with the foster style or sabot slug offers no advantage over a muzzleloader and in some ways not be as good as a muzzleloader. I am making another presentation this February and would like some feedback. Please view the survey and answer accordingly.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z6R68PS

Here is Mississippi's Regulation:

single or double barreled muzzleloading rifles of .38 caliber or larger

single shot, breech loading cartridge rifles of .35 caliber or larger

single or double barreled shotguns loaded with a single ball or slug

Initially it was the "sharps" and 1885 hi-wall style rifles that were legal, but it was so confusing on how the "original, replicas, and reproductions" portion was allowed to be used, they opened it up to ANY breech loaded single shot rifle, .35 caliber or larger

 

[scn]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

No advantage over a muzzleloader? That is a stretch.

While the ballistics of some of those weapons are similar, the ease of reloading and getting off additonal shots is a total game changer from the current muzzleloading season.

Hopefully the Commission will continue to keep it as a muzzleloading season.

 

[plinker22]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

I'm with scn on this.

 

[TheLBLman]

Hopefully the Commission will continue to keep it as a muzzleloading season.

And/or just make it "any" weapon.

What I don't want to see is any more "special" weapons segments, promoted more by manufacturers/sellers of these than by hunter demand.

Why should we demand hunters go out and buy a new "weapon" so they can participate in better hunting opportunity?

If hunting opportunity can be expanded, then let's do it with weapons most deer hunters already own. What we don't need to do is put some special weapons enthusiasts on a pedestal, and continue this dividing of hunters.

 

[Hangnail]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

I wouldn't have any problem at all with single shot rifles or shotguns legalized for the current muzzleloader season. I'm neither for nor against it. I think Louisiana has the same or similar weapons available for use now. I do think it would increase the hunter numbers to some degree which would probably increase the kill, which is why Louisiana changed their rules. If the powers that be at TWRA think the number of deer taken and hunter participation is fine like it is, I don't see them changing anything.

 

[chiggerbit]

No, please, NO!

Mississippi's season was referred to as "PRIMITIVE WEAPONS" already, but Tennessee's muzzleloader season has been and is still just that, and should only be for muzzleloaders or bows. Period. It's just my opinion, but why change it? So what if modern advances in muzzleloading have helped with accuracy/terminal performance, minimizing corrosion/cleaning issues, and loading?

Also, being a guy that actually deer hunts with a single shot rifle, my New England Handi-Rifle has a HUGE advantage over a muzzleloader in terms of ease and speed of reloading.

As for shotguns, I started deer hunting while in college in southern Illinois. No matter the advances with slug guns and sabots, I see no sense in encouraging guys to go afield with something that's not nearly as accurate as a muzzleloader. Lighter ones kick like a mule, which encourages flinching/less practice, and the heavy ones are just that, HEAVY, and useless for anything but shooting deer at relatively close ranges for a firearm. I've been muzzle loading here in TN for years, and I've also been in the woods on a couple of mornings in Illinois farm country where you'd think that Dove season had started instead of the first shotgun weekend! Poll the deer and see what they think! lol.

 

[strutandrut]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

No

 

[Scioto]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

My vote would be for a primitive muzzleloader season - no inlines, only flint or caps and black powder. No scopes. Alternatively, turn bow season into bow and primitive muzzleloader.

Now this should make the inliners and bow hunters rabid.

 

[MUP]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

No

And no again. Just like having the distinct different seasons myself.

 

[Rubberduck270]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

My vote would be for a primitive muzzleloader season - no inlines, only flint or caps and black powder. No scopes. Alternatively, turn bow season into bow and primitive muzzleloader.

Now this should make the inliners and bow hunters rabid.

I'll gladly tote my TC New Englander during bow season if it comes to it. Pretty primitive weaponry.

I'd like to keep muzzleloader season just for muzzleloaders though. And I don't understand how you classify a primitive weapon as a single shot rifle, when they made muzzleloaders long before they had cartridges.

 

[Hunter 257W]

I don't see how anybody can say that allowing handguns during ML season would give a hunter an advantage over the ML.

If the singleshot rifles were allowed, I doubt it would change the number of deer taken hardly any with the caliber restrictions you speak of. Few hunters would buy a single shot rifle just to gain the small advantage over a ML for a mere 2 weeks. I most likely would, but then I'm a gun nut. For instance a NEF singleshot in 357Magnum reamed out to chamber the 357Maximum would be a great woods deer rifle. :)

 

[wtbh236]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

no way

 

[Rubberduck270]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

I don't see how anybody can say that allowing handguns during ML season would give a hunter an advantage over the ML.

If the singleshot rifles were allowed, I doubt it would change the number of deer taken hardly any with the caliber restrictions you speak of. Few hunters would buy a single shot rifle just to gain the small advantage over a ML for a mere 2 weeks. I most likely would, but then I'm a gun nut. For instance a NEF singleshot in 357Magnum reamed out to chamber the 357Maximum would be a great woods deer rifle. :)

I'd like to see someone push a 200 gr. bullet 2700 fps out of a pistol cartridge. I'll keep my Smokeless ML and let ya'll play with pistol cartridges and 45-70s.

 

[contendershooter]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids, is more accurate than your smooth-bore or rifled slug gun, so what's the point? I have went over this multiple times looking at numbers ballistically, and the muzzleloader has the velocity and ft-lbs advantage. Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top the majority of the time. And as far as reload times, with these fast reload tubes you can get for muzzleloaders now, it can be done in about the same time to break open your single shot, fumble around with a new fresh shell, insert, aim and fire again. And let's not forget sabot shotgun slugs use the same 209 primers, and the same bullets that are in muzzleloader sabots

 

[contendershooter]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

see this is proof, and I can confirm what he is saying as I have a Savage 10MLII also and can attest to this

 

[contendershooter]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

It's Mississippi that has those laws, Louisiana is considering going that route

 

[contendershooter]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

Chiggerbit, that is your opinion, and I appreciate that, but I can tell you that I can reload a muzzleloader every bit as fast as I can my NEF partner shotgun, or my TC Contender Pistol or Rifle.

 

[contendershooter]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

I don't see how anybody can say that allowing handguns during ML season would give a hunter an advantage over the ML.

If the singleshot rifles were allowed, I doubt it would change the number of deer taken hardly any with the caliber restrictions you speak of. Few hunters would buy a single shot rifle just to gain the small advantage over a ML for a mere 2 weeks. I most likely would, but then I'm a gun nut. For instance a NEF singleshot in 357Magnum reamed out to chamber the 357Maximum would be a great woods deer rifle. :)

That is a mouth watering propsition...or a 445 Supermag from a 44 Magnum

 

[scn]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids, is more accurate than your smooth-bore or rifled slug gun, so what's the point? I have went over this multiple times looking at numbers ballistically, and the muzzleloader has the velocity and ft-lbs advantage. Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top the majority of the time. And as far as reload times, with these fast reload tubes you can get for muzzleloaders now, it can be done in about the same time to break open your single shot, fumble around with a new fresh shell, insert, aim and fire again. And let's not forget sabot shotgun slugs use the same 209 primers, and the same bullets that are in muzzleloader sabots

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, after using muzzleloaders and break action firearms for over 40 years, I can tell you the reloading time between the two types is not even close. In addition, the motions needed to reload a muzzleloader make getting a second shot off at a deer extremely difficult.

So, yes, there are similarities in some of the ballistics, but totally different ball games in the hunting applications.

 

[Rubberduck270]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

I don't see how anybody can say that allowing handguns during ML season would give a hunter an advantage over the ML.

If the singleshot rifles were allowed, I doubt it would change the number of deer taken hardly any with the caliber restrictions you speak of. Few hunters would buy a single shot rifle just to gain the small advantage over a ML for a mere 2 weeks. I most likely would, but then I'm a gun nut. For instance a NEF singleshot in 357Magnum reamed out to chamber the 357Maximum would be a great woods deer rifle. :)

That is a mouth watering propsition...or a 445 Supermag from a 44 Magnum

When you start talking about reaming barrels and rechambering rifles you get away from what I would consider a "primitive" rifle altogether. Over-the-counter calibers are what most would use if this ever went through.

And in all honesty, I don't care how fast you think you can reload a muzzleloader. I know I can reload a single shot faster than you can load a muzzleloader. And I'll even let you have your ramrod already out :)

 

[chiggerbit]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

Chiggerbit, that is your opinion, and I appreciate that, but I can tell you that I can reload a muzzleloader every bit as fast as I can my NEF partner shotgun, or my TC Contender Pistol or Rifle.

PLEASE post a youtube video of that comparison. That I gotta see.

 

[contendershooter]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids, is more accurate than your smooth-bore or rifled slug gun, so what's the point? I have went over this multiple times looking at numbers ballistically, and the muzzleloader has the velocity and ft-lbs advantage. Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top the majority of the time. And as far as reload times, with these fast reload tubes you can get for muzzleloaders now, it can be done in about the same time to break open your single shot, fumble around with a new fresh shell, insert, aim and fire again. And let's not forget sabot shotgun slugs use the same 209 primers, and the same bullets that are in muzzleloader sabots

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, after using muzzleloaders and break action firearms for over 40 years, I can tell you the reloading time between the two types is not even close. In addition, the motions needed to reload a muzzleloader make getting a second shot off at a deer extremely difficult.

So, yes, there are similarities in some of the ballistics, but totally different ball games in the hunting applications.

Here is my deal, if the season was longer than two weeks, then I would agree. I think we can all agree here the first youth hunt and muzzleloader season is the peak of TN deer hunting, and maybe the first week of rifle, then after that, especially here in middle TN its downhill from there. So for that two week period, I am simply wanting someone who doesn't feel safe around muzzleloaders, an older person who my have trouble loading them, a person who only has the money for one gun to hunt, not to mention the extra fees from licenses of more people hunting and the revenue from the ammo tax, which BTW doesn't apply to black powder and accessories, that TWRA would get. From whom I have asked at TWRA so far, they stated it would not make that big of a difference during those two weeks, as it did not make that big of a difference in Mississippi. And here me out, I am saying make single shot handguns in any .35 caliber or larger pistol cartridge legal, and your .35 caliber rifles that were "former" black powder cartridges such as the 38/40, 44/40, 45/70, etc. With Mississippi's regs, you can hunt with a 35 Remington single shot, 35 Whelen Single Shot, 350 Rem Mag, anything, and I am not proposing making it that loose.

 

[WestTn Huntin man]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids, is more accurate than your smooth-bore or rifled slug gun, so what's the point? I have went over this multiple times looking at numbers ballistically, and the muzzleloader has the velocity and ft-lbs advantage. Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top the majority of the time. And as far as reload times, with these fast reload tubes you can get for muzzleloaders now, it can be done in about the same time to break open your single shot, fumble around with a new fresh shell, insert, aim and fire again. And let's not forget sabot shotgun slugs use the same 209 primers, and the same bullets that are in muzzleloader sabots

""Magazines have reviewed the same muzzleloader vs shotgun argument and muzzleloader came out on top " "
That says it all right there. MAGAZINES and Gun makers are who will benifit. They fuel the fire for many things that have nothing to do with herd health or happy hunters.They are in it for the money.New seasons new weapons equals more money.

 

[megalomaniac]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

my cousin pushes 400 grainers at 2300 fps outta his pistol... it's a .416-06 JDJ encore :)

keep ML's as primitive weapons and just move the season to the last week of Dec and first week of Jan.

Open rifle season at the current ML's timeframe (first weekend in Nov)

 

[WestTn Huntin man]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

""It's actually not a stretch, most muzzleloaders out there are shooting 150 grains of 777, Pyrodex, or Blackhorn, smokeless powder in the case of the Savage ML-10II and with those loads and a good 250gr to 300gr sabot, you have a weapon that equals a 45/70 on steroids""
Here's the real deal on most M.L. are shooting 150 grains of some type of powder.That extra 50 grains is going up in smoke with most B.P. weapons. Very few moderen muzzle loaders have 28" barrels. Many are 26".You need a longer barrel to efficently burn the powder and get inproved results.AS the Deer Assasin likes to say "the Chronograph don't lie" :).I shoot a Remington Gensis for the extra 2".

 

[contendershooter]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

No

And no again. Just like having the distinct different seasons myself.

you will still have that distinct season, and you can still shoot a smokepole if you so choose

 

[Outdoor Enthusiast]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

my cousin pushes 400 grainers at 2300 fps outta his pistol... it's a .416-06 JDJ encore :)

keep ML's as primitive weapons and just move the season to the last week of Dec and first week of Jan.

Open rifle season at the current ML's timeframe (first weekend in Nov)

I like this. I want a rifle in my hands during the first and second weeks of November. Particuarly the second week on my farm.

 

[WestTn Huntin man]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

I think TWRA and most the hunters I know are liking the new trend toward "Keeping it Simple".

 

[contendershooter]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

moving the seasons around really belongs in the 13-14 seasons change forum, but TWRA has the seasons pretty good as they are; I would like to see deer season open the second week of September and close Dec 31st. Keep the seasons the same where bow closes, then primitive then gun. I do think the does need to go to 4 per day and the bucks down to two per year.

This year I have only seen one doe the entire year, no bucks, and I typically see two to four good bucks per year. My father-in-law is retired and hunts almost daily and has only seen a handful of does, and three bucks, one of which he harvested. The past two years, deer season has been really strange. Weather maybe?

 

[Rubberduck270]

Re: Want to change manner & means during muzzleloader

So for that two week period, I am simply wanting someone who doesn't feel safe around muzzleloaders, an older person who my have trouble loading them, a person who only has the money for one gun to hunt

So if you only have the money to hunt with one gun, you want this person to go out and buy another gun to use in the "primitive" season? 45-70s and the majority of the other cartridges you listed aren't a dime a dozen in TN. You can find a ML alot easier than you can a 45-70 in my neck of the woods.

And here me out, I am saying make single shot handguns in any .35 caliber or larger pistol cartridge legal, and your .35 caliber rifles that were "former" black powder cartridges such as the 38/40, 44/40, 45/70

And again, it's been years since I've laid eyes on a 44-40. My local Wal-Mart don't stock ammo for any of the 3 cartridges you just listed.

If a person doesn't feel comfortable shooting a ML how do they feel comfortable shooting a centerfire rifle? I can see what goes into the barrel of my ML when I load it. Do you know exactly how much and what type of powder is in each loaded round you buy? Nope.

And if you don't have the strength to reload a ML how do you have the strength to fire a regular rifle? ML's can be loaded at home by someone with the ability to load it then used in the field by another person that may not have the ability. And if you can't physically load a ML, then you really don't need to be hunting alone.