TWRC meeting results

[fairchaser]

The commission met tonight to hear the recommendations on changes to the rules for the CWD zone. The use of guns or ML during the 3 day August hunt was overturned and remains archery only. Also, the only way to get extra buck tags is to kill two does for testing or have a buck that tests positive. You can earn up to two extra tags. Some of the commissioners were concerned too many big bucks would get killed. They apparently still don't understand disease management. Here's a slide from the meeting outlining the original proposal.

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[BULL MOOSE]

They have to live long enough to grow big.

 

[Andy S.]

Thanks for sharing. Localized herd management (within CWD Zone) and statewide disease management are never going to align 100%. You can either try to preserve the localized herd and hunter satisfaction in the CWD Zone at the expense of it spreading quicker to other counties (sounds like the Commissioners Approach to some degree), or you can try to manage the disease (from a statewide level) and not worry as much about herd preservation and hunter satisfaction within the CWD Zone (TWRA's approach to some degree). Those two strategies will never align, but I suspect their differences will slowly come in agreement over time as we all try to gain a better understanding of CWD and how to manage it locally, and slow it's spread statewide.

 

[Andy S.]

For those that want to view the meeting:

[youtube]XIcsn6c23bs[/youtube]

 

[fairchaser]

Chuck Yoest and Brad Gardener really tried to keep the guns or ML in the velvet hunt but some commissioners thought it would be wholesale slaughter. What they don't get is that's the point to curb the spread of CWD. I think they should have recommended it just for the positive counties instead of the entire zone. I agree with Andy that the paradigm shift between disease control and deer management is a tough hurdle. The rule changes IMO were not further and deeper than you are think necessary. The result will be business as usual and the disease will spread quickly across the state.

 

[TheLBLman]

Chuck Yoest and Brad Gardener really tried to keep the guns or ML in the velvet hunt but some commissioners thought it would be wholesale slaughter. What they don't get is that's the point to curb the spread of CWD.

I agree with those commissioners about this.
What they "do get" is sometimes our fear-based reactions can cause more harm than the underlying problem itself.
The "resource" is not just CWD, but the future of deer hunting.

Older bucks are somewhat like the geese that lay the golden eggs; kill them all (or too many) and the temporary gain is negated by larger longer-term losses, including a lot fewer hunters in subsequent years. Fewer hunters can be caused more by fear-mongering & over-regulation than by CWD?

Although few of us will knowingly consume CWD-infected venison,
that doesn't change the fact that even the the CWD-infected venison appears to be safer than eating a tossed salad.
Never mind that even in the CWD "hot" zones, most deer are not infected by CWD?

I do agree it is a balancing act, but killing more bucks generally equates to killing fewer does, which can end in more harm than good (beyond a single year's time horizon) in addressing the spread of CWD. Again, those older infected does are giving birth to what becomes new infected bucks, many of which will permanently disperse from their birth areas, farther than rutting bucks do for 6 weeks annually.

So where lies the greater risk of farther spreading CWD?
What if for every infected buck killed,
birth is given to two new infected bucks that permanently disperse farther than each previously killed roamed for only 6 weeks annually?

 

[TheLBLman]

The result will be business as usual and the disease will spread quickly across the state.

Regardless what we do, this disease is here.
Whether it is "business as usual" may depend on regulations more than the CWD itself.

At least at present, the fear mongers have already scared many people out of eating venison, which will result in a much less doe hunting, and a much lower doe kill. This is causing a huge increase in hunters who will ONLY be hunting for trophy antlers. With summertime buck hunting, increases in buck limits, I can see the buck "resource" taking a huge hit, greatly harming the future of deer hunting, possibly more than the CWD itself.

 

[fairchaser]

Chuck Yoest and Brad Gardener really tried to keep the guns or ML in the velvet hunt but some commissioners thought it would be wholesale slaughter. What they don't get is that's the point to curb the spread of CWD.

I agree with those commissioners about this.
What they "do get" is sometimes our fear-based reactions can cause more harm than the underlying problem itself.
The "resource" is not just CWD, but the future of deer hunting.

Older bucks are somewhat like the geese that lay the golden eggs; kill them all (or too many) and the temporary gain is negated by larger longer-term losses, including a lot fewer hunters in subsequent years. Fewer hunters can be caused more by fear-mongering & over-regulation than by CWD?

Although few of us will knowingly consume CWD-infected venison,
that doesn't change the fact that even the the CWD-infected venison appears to be safer than eating a tossed salad.
Never mind that even in the CWD "hot" zones, most deer are not infected by CWD?

I do agree it is a balancing act, but killing more bucks generally equates to killing fewer does, which can end in more harm than good (beyond a single year's time horizon) in addressing the spread of CWD. Again, those older infected does are giving birth to what becomes new infected bucks, many of which will permanently disperse from their birth areas, farther than rutting bucks do for 6 weeks annually.

So where lies the greater risk of farther spreading CWD?
What if for every infected buck killed,
birth is given to two new infected bucks that permanently disperse farther than each previously killed roamed for only 6 weeks annually?

You should be happy LBLman with the added buck tags only available with the killing of two extra does or a positive buck. This satisfies your concerns over not killing enough does. Unfortunately these changes are drops of water in the ocean. For any real changes, they should almost create a dispersal sink where herd densities in the zone could be cut in half. This would alienate too many hunters and rightfully so. Just like our social security system, there is insufficient political will to fix anything until we are facing a real crisis head on. So it's business as usual.

 

[swd]

The impression I got was that many of the commissioners had received pressure from their constituents about killing too many bucks.

Not sure that I know enough to challenge the biologists on this one. What I would like to see us do is learn the lessons from other states like Wisconsin and Illinois and embrace what has "worked" while discarding the things that have definitively failed.

At the end of the day, I just want to hunt. I cannot wait for that first morning hunt in August! I don't care what type of tool I am allowed to take as long as I can get out there.

 

[mattmillard510]

Chuck Yoest and Brad Gardener really tried to keep the guns or ML in the velvet hunt but some commissioners thought it would be wholesale slaughter. What they don't get is that's the point to curb the spread of CWD. I think they should have recommended it just for the positive counties instead of the entire zone. I agree with Andy that the paradigm shift between disease control and deer management is a tough hurdle. The rule changes IMO were not further and deeper than you are think necessary. The result will be business as usual and the disease will spread quickly across the state.

At this point, I don't see how mass slaughter helps unless you kill all the deer. CWD will be a nationwide issue and we might as well come to grips with that. Until they can better understand how it's transmitted 100% as well as how to stop, it's just shots in the dark.

I heard Dr Grant Woods day one of the highest prevalence rates on record for CWD is out west in mule deer (Wyoming maybe?) and it has one of the LOWEST deer densities of deer per square mile. Despite that, it has an insanely high infection rate.

I'm just pumping the brakes on the idea of mass slaughter. Illinois did that with sharpshooters, and CWD has continued to spread. Face it guys, it's going to be an issue forever


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[fairchaser]

The impression I got was that many of the commissioners had received pressure from their constituents about killing too many bucks.

Not sure that I know enough to challenge the biologists on this one. What I would like to see us do is learn the lessons from other states like Wisconsin and Illinois and embrace what has "worked" while discarding the things that have definitively failed.

At the end of the day, I just want to hunt. I cannot wait for that first morning hunt in August! I don't care what type of tool I am allowed to take as long as I can get out there.

The reality SWD is that nothing has worked. There is no ideal solution. All we know is the disease spreads more with higher densities because it's proximity based. Also they know mature bucks have a rate that is 3 times the rate of other deer. In areas with very high rates, they have had some success in killing everything possible and allowing surrounding areas with lower rates to repopulate that area. This at least gets rates back to manageable rates. Once the herd gets above the recruitment rate, the herd is sort of doomed to dwindle down. They don't really know how close to this tipping point we are. This is why they wanted to kill lots of bucks before the rut. To get samples and see where the edge of the infected area we are and to keep infected bucks from spreading the disease before the rut. Last season they only killed 10 bucks so not much impact in the zone.

 

[TheLBLman]

You should be happy LBLman with the added buck tags only available with the killing of two extra does or a positive buck.
This satisfies your concerns over not killing enough does.

By no means does this satisfy any my concerns.

Here's why:

The vast majority of deer hunters are content in killing only a single deer annually.
In fact, most already only kill one (or more deer) only every other year.
Now, this is how it has been when that same vast majority actually intended to eat their venison!

So, what do we get with the "earn a buck" deal in the "hot zone"?
We simply give 2 additional buck tags to a minority of avid hunters who were already killing 2 and more female deer annually.
So now, they'll have twice as many buck tags, and will likely kill even fewer female deer.

The reduced doe kill will be in large part because people have been scared out of eating venison.
Just saying, the "earn a buck" deal will make very little difference, and the doe kill will end up a fraction what it's been in prior years.

Again, delicate balancing act, but the well has been poisoned with too much fear-mongering, and too many "shots in the dark" for little purpose beyond addressing the fears and to "do something". My concern is this has scared too many hunters out of eating venison, therefore many will cease killing does, then only kill bucks (mainly for the antlers), or worse, simply quit deer hunting.

What happens when higher buck limits & summertime buck-only hunting make 2 1/2-yr-old & older bucks a RARE sight in November?

By the way, I have the utmost respect for Chuck Yoest, as well as some of the commissioners.
We're just all prioritizing different perspectives.
Unbridled fear of the unknown is not one of mine.

 

[dhpro]

Can someone explain the earn a buck?


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[cbhunter]

Can someone explain the earn a buck?


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if I understand it correctly and you kill a positive buck, you get an additional tag up to 2 additional bucks. If I'm wrong, someone inform us.


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[Omega]

Can someone explain the earn a buck?


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if I understand it correctly and you kill a positive buck, you get an additional tag up to 2 additional bucks. If I'm wrong, someone inform us.


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I took it to mean that for every two does, you get an extra buck, up to two I'd guess.

 

[fairchaser]

Can someone explain the earn a buck?


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if I understand it correctly and you kill a positive buck, you get an additional tag up to 2 additional bucks. If I'm wrong, someone inform us.


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Actually the tags for positive bucks is unlimited. You can earn up to two additional tags if you turn in two does for testing for each buck. So you can get 4 buck tags total unless you have a buck which tests positive and then those tags are bonus over the 4.

 

[fairchaser]

The result will be business as usual and the disease will spread quickly across the state.

Regardless what we do, this disease is here.
Whether it is "business as usual" may depend on regulations more than the CWD itself.

At least at present, the fear mongers have already scared many people out of eating venison, which will result in a much less doe hunting, and a much lower doe kill. This is causing a huge increase in hunters who will ONLY be hunting for trophy antlers. With summertime buck hunting, increases in buck limits, I can see the buck "resource" taking a huge hit, greatly harming the future of deer hunting, possibly more than the CWD itself.

When you have a higher prevalence rate among 3.5 year old bucks, the odds of living to 4.5 are lower. That has a greater impact than a few hunters killing them on a 3 day hunt in August. Yes, it's true that hunters will more likely want to shoot bucks than does. You can blame that on the disease and not fear mongers. Any person in the know, won't eat venison they haven't tested. Those are just the hard facts. Does need killing too and requiring two does killed is sufficient to get another buck tag. I agree though that fewer does will ultimately be killed. But you can't change that without taking buck tags away from hunters and that would alienate them too. It's a no win situation.

 

[cbhunter]

Thanks for the clarification


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[Mike Belt]

Just thinking out loud here.... If you were to kill every deer walking and import all new, unaffected deer into the same area, with CWD being so widespread into the soil with no way of eradicating it, what have you really accomplished? You may stop the immediate dispersal of deer out of that area but if they're exposed to CWD aren't they just going to re-infect every deer they come into contact with and continue spreading the disease?

 

[fairchaser]

Just thinking out loud here.... If you were to kill every deer walking and import all new, unaffected deer into the same area, with CWD being so widespread into the soil with no way of eradicating it, what have you really accomplished? You may stop the immediate dispersal of deer out of that area but if they're exposed to CWD aren't they just going to re-infect every deer they come into contact with and continue spreading the disease?

That's true Mike. All we are doing is buying more time until a cure or something else comes along. The cure is probably going to come from gene splicing where a strain of resistant cervids can be introduced into the herd. But time is all we have anyway. It's still worth the effort.

 

[scn]

The result will be business as usual and the disease will spread quickly across the state.

Regardless what we do, this disease is here.
Whether it is "business as usual" may depend on regulations more than the CWD itself.

At least at present, the fear mongers have already scared many people out of eating venison, which will result in a much less doe hunting, and a much lower doe kill. This is causing a huge increase in hunters who will ONLY be hunting for trophy antlers. With summertime buck hunting, increases in buck limits, I can see the buck "resource" taking a huge hit, greatly harming the future of deer hunting, possibly more than the CWD itself.

When you have a high probability that 3.5 year old bucks have CWD, the odds of living to 4.5 is slim. That has a greater impact than a few hunters killing them on a 3 day hunt in August. Yes, it's true that hunters will more likely want to shoot bucks than does. You can blame that on the disease and not fear mongers. Any person in the know, won't eat venison they haven't tested. Those are just the hard facts. Does need killing too and requiring two does killed is sufficient to get another buck tag. I agree though that fewer does will ultimately be killed. But you can't change that without taking buck tags away from hunters and that would alienate them too. It's a no win situation. If anything I don't believe there is enough fear. The commissioners certainly don't fear spreading the disease versus alienating a few outspoken hunters who are worried about their trophy bucks getting shot on the neighbors bean field.

I'd appreciate it if you could point me to the link from a reputable source that there is a high probability that 3.5 year old bucks have CWD in the zone. I've seen some info that indicates mature bucks may have a higher rate of CWD, but nothing to imply that by the time a buck is 3.5 years old it will have it. That pretty much flies in the face of what has happened in other states where it has been present for decades.

 

[fairchaser]

PM sent to SCN

 

[Andy S.]

This says MZers will be allowed in CWD Zone for 3 day August "deer" hunt.

 

[fairchaser]

For those interested, you can watch where the amendment to allow ML in the 3 day August hunt was voted down by the commissioners at the 1:58 minute mark in the video. I'm not sure what changed after the public meeting. But I'm glad it did, if it did?

 

[AT Hiker]

Fairchaser,
Watched the clip where it was voted down. However, here is another video of a 5-24 meeting(the next day). I haven't watched it but it maybe the answer is in it?

https://youtu.be/4PEXQwkUJqU


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[AT Hiker]

Around the 1:07 mark on video 5-24 they motion to amend the proclamation and it passes to allow muzzle loaders in all 8 counties.

Actually most of the video is about amending the proclamation. Here is a screen grab of the calendar right before the vote. From my understanding this calendar is pretty accurate, except the orange G/M/A should not include G(gun).

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[huntintn]

Dang. I suggested a 2 doe earn a buck program. Guess they do listen sometimes.

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[Andy S.]

As for the calendar above, the TWRA social media article (text above) states gun season opens on the 9th. The calendar shows the 11th.

 

[fairchaser]

As for the calendar above, the TWRA social media article (text above) states gun season opens on the 9th. The calendar shows the 11th.

The 9th is correct now. That was later amended in the May 24th meeting. So it looks like we get one more week of gun season and one less week of ML.

 

[Mike]

Actually we will get two additional weeks of gun season and muzzleloader will be 12 days instead of 14 days due to these changes. Plus an additional five days of antlered hunting on the private lands hunt the same as last year. Thanksgiving is a week later this year. The 9th would have been the traditional muzzleloader opening date and gun would have opened on the 23rd this year. Our gun season would have been one week shorter this year compared to last year's regular season due to the late Thanksgiving this year.