Turkey Decline in SM Tn

[Andy S.]

muddyboots - got any openings in your club? :D

 

[muddyboots]

muddyboots - got any openings in your club? :D

No but people usually one or 2 drop out in July. I can add u to waiting list

 

[Andy S.]

Thanks for the offer, but I was mainly just messing with you. If I were closer to you, I'd definitely have you put me on the list. Thanks again for the offer and good luck with #4.

 

[FARMTOFIELD]

muddyboots - got any openings in your club? :D

No but people usually one or 2 drop out in July. I can add u to waiting list

PM sent

 

[deerchaser007]

Good habitat can (I think) support 1 bird killed per 150 acres...4000acres/26kills.

Yea in a perfect world were they raise enough to support the population. 2 bad hatches and your screwed. I can show you hundreds of thousands of acres of perfect habitat that doesn't have 42 birds on it all together. They are simply just gone and it took a year to do it. But people weren't killing every dang gobbler they seen either.

In good habitat you can expect 1 turkey for every 40 acres. So, on 4000, and the population ratio is 60% hens and 40% male, you should have 40 males. In a good hatch year you would want 25% of that male population in jakes, so that's 10 jakes. Leaving 30 mature males. This assumes good habitat and and standard hatches.
So, 26 in one year, that may have been a above average hatch the years prior, and not much pressure from neighboring properties, is not bad. But as Rockhound pointed out, 2 bad hatches and your harvest of 15 per spring on 4000, and you just wiped out those 30 mature birds, with no hatch recovery. You are now relying on neighboring property hatches to rebuild your flock with that less pressure. Bug if it has equal or more pressure, your done.
This is why harvest data is useless! Brood surveys are the only way to control the wild turkey population. And it's biting some areas in the azz.

 

[Boll Weevil]

I'm glad this thread is getting a little mileage because at least that means people are thinking about it. The link below is to a 2014 study that was completed on wild turkey population decline in the southeast. It's a little long but worth perusing to better understand and manage the resource. It contains brood, harvest, hunter success, survival estimates...a lot of the things we've been discussing the last couple of years.

http://ncnwtf.com/myJSSImages/file/SEWT ... 202014.pdf

 

[LanceS4803]

I read an article this weekend where the head of Alabama's Fish and Widllife said he had no idea if there are more turkeys in AL now than in 1980.
Don't these agencies do counts? I realize they aren't totally accurate, but still, I would think you would know if you had more turkeys 36 years ago than right now.

 

[Mule deer]

My question wasn't about how many birds me or anyone else should kill on their property. My question was if you have seen any disease in your flocks of birds that look like this? Dark blue or black head, yellow feet and legs, rotting of the feet.

 

[Andy S.]

My question was if you have seen any disease in your flocks of birds that look like this? Dark blue or black head, yellow feet and legs, rotting of the feet.

No I have not. You have any pictures of the rotting feet?

 

[TNTomtaker01]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackhead_disease

 

[Setterman]

I read an article this weekend where the head of Alabama's Fish and Widllife said he had no idea if there are more turkeys in AL now than in 1980.
Don't these agencies do counts? I realize they aren't totally accurate, but still, I would think you would know if you had more turkeys 36 years ago than right now.

Hopefully license holders are waking up to the incompetence at the Game agencies when it comes to turkeys. Our state is in no better shape and our license dollars pay their salaries.

 

[catman529]

Good habitat can (I think) support 1 bird killed per 150 acres...4000acres/26kills.

Yea in a perfect world were they raise enough to support the population. 2 bad hatches and your screwed. I can show you hundreds of thousands of acres of perfect habitat that doesn't have 42 birds on it all together. They are simply just gone and it took a year to do it. But people weren't killing every dang gobbler they seen either.

In good habitat you can expect 1 turkey for every 40 acres. So, on 4000, and the population ratio is 60% hens and 40% male, you should have 40 males. In a good hatch year you would want 25% of that male population in jakes, so that's 10 jakes. Leaving 30 mature males. This assumes good habitat and and standard hatches.
So, 26 in one year, that may have been a above average hatch the years prior, and not much pressure from neighboring properties, is not bad. But as Rockhound pointed out, 2 bad hatches and your harvest of 15 per spring on 4000, and you just wiped out those 30 mature birds, with no hatch recovery. You are now relying on neighboring property hatches to rebuild your flock with that less pressure. Bug if it has equal or more pressure, your done.
This is why harvest data is useless! Brood surveys are the only way to control the wild turkey population. And it's biting some areas in the azz.

100 birds per 4,000 acres is a lot less turkeys than most of the places I have hunted. And they move around so much I'd think you would have to measure the population at least by square mile. And they are very good at hiding in thick woods so I don't know how anyone would even survey the population.


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[Boll Weevil]

Hopefully license holders are waking up to the incompetence at the Game agencies when it comes to turkeys.

I heard GA is shortening their season starting next year...which will likely do little or nothing to significantly improve the population. Might save a few birds, but really don't think this is the answer.

 

[deerchaser007]

Here is a great read Catman. One of my favs


http://www.clemson.edu/extension/natura ... urkey.html

 

[deerchaser007]

Hopefully license holders are waking up to the incompetence at the Game agencies when it comes to turkeys.

I heard GA is shortening their season starting next year...which will likely do little or nothing to significantly improve the population. Might save a few birds, but really don't think this is the answer.

If they are proposing to shorten, meaning start it later, then it's very possible this could increase the population. Got to remember, GA does not allow fall hunting and hens being killed. They are trying to be proactive to a noticeable decline, instead of do nothing.

 

[Woodsman10]

I propose to delay the season by 7-10 days, make zones, 4 gobblers total combined fall and spring, no hens, bearded or non bearded, and no full strut decoys.
I'd be for no decoys at all, but if they outlawed fans and full strut I'd be happy.

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[Boll Weevil]

If they are proposing to shorten, meaning start it later, then it's very possible this could increase the population.

Nope...same start date but close April 30.

 

[Setterman]

There is really no benefit to closing the season earlier, if season length is an issue cut it from the front not the back.

It's smarter to drop the limit, eliminate hen killing, and eliminate jake killing.

If Ga really wants to address the decline look at the impacts of legalized baiting for deer. The decline coincided with that becoming legal.

What impacts have trail cams had? Not the cameras obviously, but the bait piles used to funnel game to them? It makes an easy ambush site, and with corn piles in the not humid summer months poison corn could be an issue.

One thing I'd love to see researched is the % of hens that go unfertilized because the dominant gobbler gets killed. In years past, before fanning/strutter decoys! many super dominant birds were virtually unkillable allowing them to breed every hen they gathered. Now those birds are the most susceptible to the fanning/decoys and I wonder what impact that has especially once dominance has been established and the subordinate birds basically hide. Those subordinates at some point won't fire back up even if the dominant bird goes down. So how many hens go unbred resulting in less recruitment?

 

[Woodsman10]

There is really no benefit to closing the season earlier, if season length is an issue cut it from the front not the back.

It's smarter to drop the limit, eliminate hen killing, and eliminate jake killing.

If Ga really wants to address the decline look at the impacts of legalized baiting for deer. The decline coincided with that becoming legal.

What impacts have trail cams had? Not the cameras obviously, but the bait piles used to funnel game to them? It makes an easy ambush site, and with corn piles in the not humid summer months poison corn could be an issue.

One thing I'd love to see researched is the % of hens that go unfertilized because the dominant gobbler gets killed. In years past, before fanning/strutter decoys! many super dominant birds were virtually unkillable allowing them to breed every hen they gathered. Now those birds are the most susceptible to the fanning/decoys and I wonder what impact that has especially once dominance has been established and the subordinate birds basically hide. Those subordinates at some point won't fire back up even if the dominant bird goes down. So how many hens go unbred resulting in less recruitment?

I would also like to see the research that you state setterman with the new decoy phase.

Setterman,
I know that you are very know Leda blessed in wild turkeys, but I have just never seen the dominant vs subordinate gobbler thing you speak of. On more than one occasion, I have took part of, a gobbler being killed without hens and a gobbler with hens on the same day on the same property. Sometimes the one with no hens will be a big 4-5 year old with 1-1/4 spurs, and the gobbler with hens was a measly 3/4" spur two year old.

I know that they fight for dominance, and typically the ones we kill kamikaze style are two year old virgin gobblers, while the ones that stick with hens everyday are your older birds.

Not saying you don't know what your talking about, I just have yet to nail this one down. In my opinion, turkeys are crazy, and very random, and no telling what could happen at any given point of the season at any time of day.

 

[Woodsman10]

There is really no benefit to closing the season earlier, if season length is an issue cut it from the front not the back.

It's smarter to drop the limit, eliminate hen killing, and eliminate jake killing.

If Ga really wants to address the decline look at the impacts of legalized baiting for deer. The decline coincided with that becoming legal.

What impacts have trail cams had? Not the cameras obviously, but the bait piles used to funnel game to them? It makes an easy ambush site, and with corn piles in the not humid summer months poison corn could be an issue.

One thing I'd love to see researched is the % of hens that go unfertilized because the dominant gobbler gets killed. In years past, before fanning/strutter decoys! many super dominant birds were virtually unkillable allowing them to breed every hen they gathered. Now those birds are the most susceptible to the fanning/decoys and I wonder what impact that has especially once dominance has been established and the subordinate birds basically hide. Those subordinates at some point won't fire back up even if the dominant bird goes down. So how many hens go unbred resulting in less recruitment?

I would also like to see the research that you state setterman with the new decoy phase.

Setterman,
I know that you are very knowledgeable blessed in wild turkeys, but I have just never seen the dominant vs subordinate gobbler thing you speak of. On more than one occasion, I have took part of, a gobbler being killed without hens and a gobbler with hens on the same day on the same property. Sometimes the one with no hens will be a big 4-5 year old with 1-1/4 spurs, and the gobbler with hens was a measly 3/4" spur two year old.

I know that they fight for dominance, and typically the ones we kill kamikaze style are two year old virgin gobblers, while the ones that stick with hens everyday are your older birds.

Not saying you don't know what your talking about, I just have yet to nail this one down. In my opinion, turkeys are crazy, and very random, and no telling what could happen at any given point of the season at any time of day.

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[muddyboots]

Season open same. Drop limit is fine. Zones is fine. I don't know where turkeys are that ez to kill with a fan but it's not where I hunt.

 

[FARMTOFIELD]

There is really no benefit to closing the season earlier, if season length is an issue cut it from the front not the back.

It's smarter to drop the limit, eliminate hen killing, and eliminate jake killing.

If Ga really wants to address the decline look at the impacts of legalized baiting for deer. The decline coincided with that becoming legal.

What impacts have trail cams had? Not the cameras obviously, but the bait piles used to funnel game to them? It makes an easy ambush site, and with corn piles in the not humid summer months poison corn could be an issue.

One thing I'd love to see researched is the % of hens that go unfertilized because the dominant gobbler gets killed. In years past, before fanning/strutter decoys! many super dominant birds were virtually unkillable allowing them to breed every hen they gathered. Now those birds are the most susceptible to the fanning/decoys and I wonder what impact that has especially once dominance has been established and the subordinate birds basically hide. Those subordinates at some point won't fire back up even if the dominant bird goes down. So how many hens go unbred resulting in less recruitment?

I would also like to see the research that you state setterman with the new decoy phase.

Setterman,
I know that you are very know Leda blessed in wild turkeys, but I have just never seen the dominant vs subordinate gobbler thing you speak of. On more than one occasion, I have took part of, a gobbler being killed without hens and a gobbler with hens on the same day on the same property. Sometimes the one with no hens will be a big 4-5 year old with 1-1/4 spurs, and the gobbler with hens was a measly 3/4" spur two year old.

I know that they fight for dominance, and typically the ones we kill kamikaze style are two year old virgin gobblers, while the ones that stick with hens everyday are your older birds.

Not saying you don't know what your talking about, I just have yet to nail this one down. In my opinion, turkeys are crazy, and very random, and no telling what could happen at any given point of the season at any time of day.

Spur size doesn't amount to a hill of beans with dominance. Just like deer antler size doesn't determine dominant. It falls to whichever can dish out the ass whooping

 

[Andy S.]

One thing I'd love to see researched is the % of hens that go unfertilized because the dominant gobbler gets killed. In years past, before fanning/strutter decoys! many super dominant birds were virtually unkillable allowing them to breed every hen they gathered. Now those birds are the most susceptible to the fanning/decoys and I wonder what impact that has especially once dominance has been established and the subordinate birds basically hide. Those subordinates at some point won't fire back up even if the dominant bird goes down. So how many hens go unbred resulting in less recruitment?

This would be fantastic research for a graduate student to conduct to give us some insight.

 

[Setterman]

There is really no benefit to closing the season earlier, if season length is an issue cut it from the front not the back.

It's smarter to drop the limit, eliminate hen killing, and eliminate jake killing.

If Ga really wants to address the decline look at the impacts of legalized baiting for deer. The decline coincided with that becoming legal.

What impacts have trail cams had? Not the cameras obviously, but the bait piles used to funnel game to them? It makes an easy ambush site, and with corn piles in the not humid summer months poison corn could be an issue.

One thing I'd love to see researched is the % of hens that go unfertilized because the dominant gobbler gets killed. In years past, before fanning/strutter decoys! many super dominant birds were virtually unkillable allowing them to breed every hen they gathered. Now those birds are the most susceptible to the fanning/decoys and I wonder what impact that has especially once dominance has been established and the subordinate birds basically hide. Those subordinates at some point won't fire back up even if the dominant bird goes down. So how many hens go unbred resulting in less recruitment?

I would also like to see the research that you state setterman with the new decoy phase.

Setterman,
I know that you are very know Leda blessed in wild turkeys, but I have just never seen the dominant vs subordinate gobbler thing you speak of. On more than one occasion, I have took part of, a gobbler being killed without hens and a gobbler with hens on the same day on the same property. Sometimes the one with no hens will be a big 4-5 year old with 1-1/4 spurs, and the gobbler with hens was a measly 3/4" spur two year old.

I know that they fight for dominance, and typically the ones we kill kamikaze style are two year old virgin gobblers, while the ones that stick with hens everyday are your older birds.

Not saying you don't know what your talking about, I just have yet to nail this one down. In my opinion, turkeys are crazy, and very random, and no telling what could happen at any given point of the season at any time of day.

Spur size has very little do to with who's the baddest mofo on the property in my experience. I think overall weight, strength,and attitude play a bigger role then Spurs. Most of the truly giant spurred birds I've killed were fairly easy and without hens. It seems the ones with large hen groups are 3 year old birds with 1" ish Spurs.

Turkeys are crazy though. That's the one guarantee :D

 

[callemquacktn]

There is really no benefit to closing the season earlier, if season length is an issue cut it from the front not the back.

It's smarter to drop the limit, eliminate hen killing, and eliminate jake killing.

If Ga really wants to address the decline look at the impacts of legalized baiting for deer. The decline coincided with that becoming legal.

What impacts have trail cams had? Not the cameras obviously, but the bait piles used to funnel game to them? It makes an easy ambush site, and with corn piles in the not humid summer months poison corn could be an issue.

One thing I'd love to see researched is the % of hens that go unfertilized because the dominant gobbler gets killed. In years past, before fanning/strutter decoys! many super dominant birds were virtually unkillable allowing them to breed every hen they gathered. Now those birds are the most susceptible to the fanning/decoys and I wonder what impact that has especially once dominance has been established and the subordinate birds basically hide. Those subordinates at some point won't fire back up even if the dominant bird goes down. So how many hens go unbred resulting in less recruitment?

I would also like to see the research that you state setterman with the new decoy phase.

Setterman,
I know that you are very know Leda blessed in wild turkeys, but I have just never seen the dominant vs subordinate gobbler thing you speak of. On more than one occasion, I have took part of, a gobbler being killed without hens and a gobbler with hens on the same day on the same property. Sometimes the one with no hens will be a big 4-5 year old with 1-1/4 spurs, and the gobbler with hens was a measly 3/4" spur two year old.

I know that they fight for dominance, and typically the ones we kill kamikaze style are two year old virgin gobblers, while the ones that stick with hens everyday are your older birds.

Not saying you don't know what your talking about, I just have yet to nail this one down. In my opinion, turkeys are crazy, and very random, and no telling what could happen at any given point of the season at any time of day.

Bingo!


Spur size doesn't amount to a hill of beans with dominance. Just like deer antler size doesn't determine dominant. It falls to whichever can dish out the ***** whooping

 

[deerchaser007]

There is really no benefit to closing the season earlier, if season length is an issue cut it from the front not the back.

It's smarter to drop the limit, eliminate hen killing, and eliminate jake killing.

If Ga really wants to address the decline look at the impacts of legalized baiting for deer. The decline coincided with that becoming legal.

What impacts have trail cams had? Not the cameras obviously, but the bait piles used to funnel game to them? It makes an easy ambush site, and with corn piles in the not humid summer months poison corn could be an issue.

One thing I'd love to see researched is the % of hens that go unfertilized because the dominant gobbler gets killed. In years past, before fanning/strutter decoys! many super dominant birds were virtually unkillable allowing them to breed every hen they gathered. Now those birds are the most susceptible to the fanning/decoys and I wonder what impact that has especially once dominance has been established and the subordinate birds basically hide. Those subordinates at some point won't fire back up even if the dominant bird goes down. So how many hens go unbred resulting in less recruitment?

I would also like to see the research that you state setterman with the new decoy phase.

Setterman,
I know that you are very know Leda blessed in wild turkeys, but I have just never seen the dominant vs subordinate gobbler thing you speak of. On more than one occasion, I have took part of, a gobbler being killed without hens and a gobbler with hens on the same day on the same property. Sometimes the one with no hens will be a big 4-5 year old with 1-1/4 spurs, and the gobbler with hens was a measly 3/4" spur two year old.

I know that they fight for dominance, and typically the ones we kill kamikaze style are two year old virgin gobblers, while the ones that stick with hens everyday are your older birds.

Not saying you don't know what your talking about, I just have yet to nail this one down. In my opinion, turkeys are crazy, and very random, and no telling what could happen at any given point of the season at any time of day.

Spur size doesn't amount to a hill of beans with dominance. Just like deer antler size doesn't determine dominant. It falls to whichever can dish out the ***** whooping

And which one has the greater strike? The one with a baseball bat or the one with a switch?

It actually does have little to do with spurs, cause likely 70% of dominance is established without a fight in late fall. Most of us that got to hunt in late 90's and early 2000's got to see this. The fighting usually only takes place by the senior toms and the toms that are coming into dominance.
The turn I have seen the past 10 years is more younger males ganging up on the senior Tom of the group, and since the senior toms are severely outnumbered, they get less of the breeding. My observation though.

 

[Woodsman10]

I guess I answered my on question. But still, I believe it's all random chance, and pecking order in turkeys isn't quite that extensive.
I could be all wrong though.

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[deerchaser007]

Setterman, I can't find the study, but read under description, then social behavior. Very interesting result from a dominant with a subordinate or more

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_turkey

 

[deerchaser007]

Here is the one I was looking for

http://www.alankrakauer.org/?page_id=190

 

[FARMTOFIELD]

Spur size doesn't amount to a hill of beans with dominance. Just like deer antler size doesn't determine dominant. It falls to whichever can dish out the ***** whooping

And which one has the greater strike? The one with a baseball bat or the one with a switch?

It actually does have little to do with spurs, cause likely 70% of dominance is established without a fight in late fall. Most of us that got to hunt in late 90's and early 2000's got to see this. The fighting usually only takes place by the senior toms and the toms that are coming into dominance.
The turn I have seen the past 10 years is more younger males ganging up on the senior Tom of the group, and since the senior toms are severely outnumbered, they get less of the breeding. My observation though.[/quote]


I see them (and hens) fight regularly during the fall. The older bird may not be as fit to fight as the younger, several factors could play no matter the spurs size. Just like any other animal Body weight, stamina, physical shape, and attitude has more to do with it than a set of spurs, or antlers, or fists, ect...