Starting this year, I'm going to work on 30 acres doing TSI. The plan I came up with is breaking my land into 2 acre blocks. The attached pic shows Block A (Brown) will be cut this year, Block B (Purple) in 2024 and Block C (Blue) in 2026. This would give me different growth age structure within my property. What's everyone's thought on doing this method? First goal is wildlife followed by timber. According the state forester, it's mostly popular with hickory, walnut, cherry and small amounts of others scattered with in. Is there a list of types of trees that should be cut that have no market or wildlife value? I'm looking at what trees I should start cutting down, hinge or leave.
TSI work
- Thread starter Shooter77
- Start date
Shooter,
The forester should give you a list of trees to target with TSI. The Forester should also be willing to give you some info on herbicides and other safety considerations. Be prepared to work as TSI with hack and squirt or hinge cutting are demanding tasks.
Are you having 2 acre sections logged or simply TSI work? I imagine you are talking TSI since 2 acres is very small for logging.
How mature is the forest? Did the Forester recommend a selective cut or simply TSI removing undesirable species?
For wildlife purposes, getting sunlight to the ground in order to create food and cover should be a priority.
For timber management, getting rid of low value trees is important.
Both efforts must ensure that you don't cause damage to the forest. Take for example, a logger comes in and cuts the low value, mixed hardwood trees. This could be great for the forest. However, if they fall trees into valuable trees or damage them dragging logs, then you've done more harm than good in the long term.
The forester should give you a list of trees to target with TSI. The Forester should also be willing to give you some info on herbicides and other safety considerations. Be prepared to work as TSI with hack and squirt or hinge cutting are demanding tasks.
Are you having 2 acre sections logged or simply TSI work? I imagine you are talking TSI since 2 acres is very small for logging.
How mature is the forest? Did the Forester recommend a selective cut or simply TSI removing undesirable species?
For wildlife purposes, getting sunlight to the ground in order to create food and cover should be a priority.
For timber management, getting rid of low value trees is important.
Both efforts must ensure that you don't cause damage to the forest. Take for example, a logger comes in and cuts the low value, mixed hardwood trees. This could be great for the forest. However, if they fall trees into valuable trees or damage them dragging logs, then you've done more harm than good in the long term.
DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
I like the idea of having different growth structure across the property... diversity is always good... One type of tree you need to cut for timber is Ash....the emerald ash borer is killing them anyway....so if you have any...get what you can out of them now.... As far as hinge cutting.... I'd rather use the hack-n-squirt method for less desirable species.....your harvest of timber will open the canopy and hack-n-squirt will eliminate the smaller less desirable trees.... both will allow sunlight to the forest floor.....as for cutting timber...I'm surprised your have a logger who is interested in cutting only a portion of the property at a time....most will want to cut entire property at once? ....good luck with your project.... enjoy the process....land management takes time but is very rewarding.
Forester was geared toward timber and not wildlife. his suggestions were to improve the forest. ever time i would say i wanted to cut X tree to get more sunlight to my foodplot, he would come back i don't think i would cut it. He didn't give me any info as to what junk trees to cut. Front half of my property was 14-16" DBH, back half was 18"-26" DBH. He recommended waiting 5 years on front half to catch up then log it all.
I'm TSI 2 acre sections (A,B,C), it section will be 10 acres a year, to create different habitats.
All my ash is dead, most have falling to the ground already. The Emeral Ash has attacked them all.
DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
Hate that....but one positive is more sunlight is getting to forest floor....in summer of 2019 we had a decent amount of Ash and our Forester warned us and recommended we cut them and we did....at that time they were fine but he said it wouldn't be long they'd be dead.
Boone25/06
Well-Known Member
What herbicides do you prefer and at what ratio for the hack and squirt? Also what time of year is it most productive?
yeah said the same thing when we started, but we found about 25, all were dead.
BSK
Well-Known Member
I highly, highly recommend watching Dr. Craig Harper's (from UT) videos on hack-and-squirt and timber thinning techniques for TSI. His videos are geared towards the idea of it being a "do it yourself" project. He has pretty specific info on herbicides mixtures for hack-and-squirt application.
And like TNlandowner mentioned, get ready for some seriously hard work. Acres of hack-and-squirt work is not for the faint of heart.
But a VERY MUCH like your idea of doing this work in patches spread over time. That is how I design timber thinning projects for large properties: patches, spread over time, creating habitat edges along preferred terrain features, and leaving gaps between patches of thinned timber to make hunting a little easier (as this forces deer to walk through short sections of big open timber to go from cover patch to cover patch).
And like TNlandowner mentioned, get ready for some seriously hard work. Acres of hack-and-squirt work is not for the faint of heart.
But a VERY MUCH like your idea of doing this work in patches spread over time. That is how I design timber thinning projects for large properties: patches, spread over time, creating habitat edges along preferred terrain features, and leaving gaps between patches of thinned timber to make hunting a little easier (as this forces deer to walk through short sections of big open timber to go from cover patch to cover patch).
DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
During our TSI project we had more acres than we could manage ourselves so we worked with our Forester and sub contracted the hack-n-squirt project out....there are folks on here much more well versed than I on the topic and there is a ton of material available online on the topic.....our hack-n-squirt project targeted ironwood, gum, small beech, etc.....it's been around two years since our project was completed and we're very pleased with the results.
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
Garlon 4...the ester not the amine with diesel as a carrier. 1 part chemical + 5 parts diesel is potent enough for even the most hardy species. I smoked a hillside a few weeks ago...just thinning some junk understory. They won't even bud/leaf out this spring.
Thank you, I remember you talking about this patch work many moons ago on here, that's what got me thinking about doing this way. Then I seen a article in QDMA few years back that had a wagon wheel stand and they did this pie shape pieces around the circle with different age structure. Just confirmed your info.
I've been working on mine, mainly hack and squirt beech and maple. I'm also girdling some of the big beech that are shading out everything below it. I have tendinitis in my right elbow from swinging the machete. I hope to see some results this spring with tender new growth in the newly opened areas.
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
Take a look at a mature stand of natural old growth hardwood...even pine. Sometimes a little more/less but keep in mind there may only be 50-70 trees per acre at maturity when there may have been 1000 stems at regeneration. Sunlight, water, nutrients, disease, position in the stand, and competition all play a factor in which trees survive. In some ways, TSI focused on timber production seeks to foster or even accelerate this process by giving the very best stems a shot at thriving.
Here's a pic of a natural hardwood stand on the left, pine on the right. In the summer both are closed canopy and you can see how few trees there are remaining. Walk each of your blocks and pick the keepers with good form and spacing: oak, poplar, cherry, walnut, even the occasional gum or maple that'll make a good log one day. Cedar, elm, ironwood, sourwood, beech, privet, osage orange, trees with poor form, low forks, or cankers get torched.
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BSK
Well-Known Member
And another caveat, I've found killing big mature trees with hack-and-squirt to be very, very difficult. Old trees are truly tough. I can't seem to kill big beeches or Mountain Chestnut Oak. No matter how many times I hit them, they just seem to make it through. They get sick, but just won't fully die.
WTNBowHunter
Well-Known Member
What is the smallest area one should plan to hinge cut or hack&squirt in order to make any type of impact for deer? Impact in my mind being added cover and warm season food.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Honestly, I've hack-and-squirted less than an acre with positive results. But for an entire property - if that is your primary method of timber management - I would suggest to make a major impact at least several percent of the total timber acreage. Let's say 3-5%.
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
Something that hasn't been mentioned here is roots that may have grafted and application of chemicals that are soil active. If your target tree is close enough to a crop tree such that the roots can grow together you can torch both trees unintentionally. If the chem you're using on a target tree is immediately uphill from a crop tree, same thing if there's runoff.
Only apply enough to kill the target and keep in mind you don't need to drown a stem. All that chemical is going somewhere and it's probably somewhere not intended.
Only apply enough to kill the target and keep in mind you don't need to drown a stem. All that chemical is going somewhere and it's probably somewhere not intended.
JCDEERMAN
Well-Known Member
Good to know. I didn't know that, but makes perfect sense. I know each variety of tree has a different root system, but what would be a general safe distance?
WTNBowHunter
Well-Known Member
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
To be clear I'm no expert but 2 factors that immediately come to mind are soil type and topography. Heavy clay or loam in bottomground isn't likely to translocate much. In sandier soils that drain really well or have some gradient, soil-active chemical or over application is far more likely to move. Just know that tree roots can be several times the diameter of their crowns so maybe use that as a measure.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Each type of chemical has a best time for use. Some can be used any time the plant/tree is actively growing, and some are best used only when water is going down into the roots (mid to late Fall).
WTNBowHunter
Well-Known Member
BSK
Well-Known Member
With most herbicides, the plants need to be actively growing.
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
That's one reason I like the ester + diesel as a carrier; can apply any time of year. For relatively young thin-barked species (beech, maple, privet, ironwood, hornbeam etc), it's basically chemical girdling. The diesel serves an a penetrant.
It's a lot more pleasant work in the winter vs summer with a backpack sprayer and a really good time to scout for both deer and turkeys.
It's a lot more pleasant work in the winter vs summer with a backpack sprayer and a really good time to scout for both deer and turkeys.
JCDEERMAN
Well-Known Member
The diesel doesn't bother the sprayer I'm assuming? I may have to get an additional backpack sprayer for this
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
Hasn't yet. You can use a shot of dawn dishwashing liquid, warm water, and switsh it around real well and run some thru the wand. So there's none left to gum up the works. Mine works like the day I bought it and that's been 8 or 9 years.
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9 oz of
Imazapyr 4 SL Herbicide
53% mixed with 23 oz water, ( use industrial squirt bottle) hatchet works best in my opinion, ( eastwing handles are best) 1 hack per 4 in dbh, do not overfill gash with herbicide. spray chem on blade and let it run in to gash . I hit some species more like beech,soft maple, olive, honey locust, and sour wood, i want them gone.do not overfill gash to where it runs out.
if a small target tree is close to a money tree, i dont use chem , jut hack it around a few times, i will hurt it enough it will eventually die.
when you get the hang of it, you can do 1 ac per hr on average, I just finished for the year, completed 190 ac. best time is fall , late summer. but any time after full leaf out and up to sap moving.
I worked on my place in tn last year up till feb and still had good results.
hope this helps
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