wsm
Well-Known Member
Anyone using triple 7 loose powder ,if so what load and how do you like it .Is clean up bad and do you swap between shots?
triple 7
- Thread starter wsm
- Start date
soggybottom
Well-Known Member
Triple 7 FFFG. 80 to 100 grains at the range because it's cheeper BH 209 . No i don't like it. And I swab after every shot. clean up is not to bad.
You really should look into Black Horn 209 it's some good stuff I use it for hunting.
You really should look into Black Horn 209 it's some good stuff I use it for hunting.
Wobblyshot1
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2010
- Messages
- 3,513
This is from another forum. Mad Monk knows of what he speaks. Just thought you 777 shooters would be interested.
In the early 1990's we watched in-line action muzzleloaders gain acceptance and sales. But most of the in-line action crowd hoped for near smokeless velocities out of what is legally a muzzleloading weapon. In addition. The Pyrodex patent was due to expire with the 20 years of protection gone.
So Hodgdon went back to the lab to imprtove upon the basic concept to create a powder that would give higher velocities in the in-line rifles. They came up with the 777 powder.
As soon as it became available I was able to purchase a container. Took it apart in the wife's kitchen after suggesting she spend the day shopping at the mall.
Took some apart in water and then another sample in solvent alcohol.
Compared to Pyrodex.
More charcoal.
No sulfur.
No potassium perchlorate.
Then an alcohol soluble fraction that gave me interesting crystals. A flame test showed it was sodium based. Their products of combustion information showed a sulfur-based chemical after powder combustion. So a little digging in the HazMat book showed it could be sodium trinitrobenzene sulfonate. Commonly used in the manufacture of organic dyes and used in low-order detonating compositions. This kitchen chemistry analysis was later verified and expanded upon by a buddy working in the main ATF forensic chemistry lab.
Then the logic behind the 777 formula made sense. And the people who worked on this to get it to market had to have been fairly sharp. This sodium trinitrobenzene sulfonate is highly reactive with charcoal. That means that they could do away with the potassium perchlorate needed in the Pyrodex formulation based on the sodium benzoate. They then also did not need the dicyanamide to prevent unfired charges from attacking any metal the charges were in contact with. Compared to Pyrodex. The 777 is a more stable composition not easily degraded if the powder picks up a bit of moisture before being fired in the gun.
But. The ignition temperature of the 777 is a bit higher than that of Pyrodex. That makes it bit less touchy when it comes to any accidental ignition events. Another but here. When I looked at the 777 and how fast it burned in the open I was a bit shocked. If you ignite a pile of Pyrodex, in the open, on a flat surface you see it opens burns a bit slower than black powder. The 777 has a very fast open burn rate. Equal to or a bit faster than a good black powder.
In my work I looked at corrosiveness on steel and brass plates. Pyrodex residue would produce rapid and extensive pitting of the metals when exposed to air with a RH level in a certain range. Side by side I saw no such metal surface pitting with the 777 reside. No more corrosive than a good well made black powder.
I should point out that with the high temperature of ignition you may see a fairly wide range in velocities with different ways of igniting the charge in the gun.
Black powder is fairly easy to ignite and ignites at a temperature lower than that required for the BP subs. When you go from standard percussion caps up through magnum caps and then to a 209 primer you see a little increase in velocity with an increase in the "strength of ignition". This is much more pronounced with the subs and especially with the Triple Seven. In my work, using a mule ear lock on the 50 caliber Great Plains Rifle I had a 100 fps spread on muzzle velocity when going from a standard cap to 2 different magnum strength caps and then to a 209 primer. This vat about 70 grains in the .50 caliber.
With the Triple Seven the powder has a higher combustion temperature compared to Pyrodex. If you use too large of a charge you may see the formation of a glass-like deposit in front of where the projectile sat on the charge. This may happen if the gas temperatures behind the projectile go above 1600 degrees. That is where the potassium carbonate in the combustion residue melts to a liquid and then cools to a glass-like film that does not readily dissolve in a wet cleaning patch. When that point is reached it is wise to reduce the charge a bit until the "skin" is no longer a problem when you go to load another charge and projectile.
Mad Monk
In the early 1990's we watched in-line action muzzleloaders gain acceptance and sales. But most of the in-line action crowd hoped for near smokeless velocities out of what is legally a muzzleloading weapon. In addition. The Pyrodex patent was due to expire with the 20 years of protection gone.
So Hodgdon went back to the lab to imprtove upon the basic concept to create a powder that would give higher velocities in the in-line rifles. They came up with the 777 powder.
As soon as it became available I was able to purchase a container. Took it apart in the wife's kitchen after suggesting she spend the day shopping at the mall.
Took some apart in water and then another sample in solvent alcohol.
Compared to Pyrodex.
More charcoal.
No sulfur.
No potassium perchlorate.
Then an alcohol soluble fraction that gave me interesting crystals. A flame test showed it was sodium based. Their products of combustion information showed a sulfur-based chemical after powder combustion. So a little digging in the HazMat book showed it could be sodium trinitrobenzene sulfonate. Commonly used in the manufacture of organic dyes and used in low-order detonating compositions. This kitchen chemistry analysis was later verified and expanded upon by a buddy working in the main ATF forensic chemistry lab.
Then the logic behind the 777 formula made sense. And the people who worked on this to get it to market had to have been fairly sharp. This sodium trinitrobenzene sulfonate is highly reactive with charcoal. That means that they could do away with the potassium perchlorate needed in the Pyrodex formulation based on the sodium benzoate. They then also did not need the dicyanamide to prevent unfired charges from attacking any metal the charges were in contact with. Compared to Pyrodex. The 777 is a more stable composition not easily degraded if the powder picks up a bit of moisture before being fired in the gun.
But. The ignition temperature of the 777 is a bit higher than that of Pyrodex. That makes it bit less touchy when it comes to any accidental ignition events. Another but here. When I looked at the 777 and how fast it burned in the open I was a bit shocked. If you ignite a pile of Pyrodex, in the open, on a flat surface you see it opens burns a bit slower than black powder. The 777 has a very fast open burn rate. Equal to or a bit faster than a good black powder.
In my work I looked at corrosiveness on steel and brass plates. Pyrodex residue would produce rapid and extensive pitting of the metals when exposed to air with a RH level in a certain range. Side by side I saw no such metal surface pitting with the 777 reside. No more corrosive than a good well made black powder.
I should point out that with the high temperature of ignition you may see a fairly wide range in velocities with different ways of igniting the charge in the gun.
Black powder is fairly easy to ignite and ignites at a temperature lower than that required for the BP subs. When you go from standard percussion caps up through magnum caps and then to a 209 primer you see a little increase in velocity with an increase in the "strength of ignition". This is much more pronounced with the subs and especially with the Triple Seven. In my work, using a mule ear lock on the 50 caliber Great Plains Rifle I had a 100 fps spread on muzzle velocity when going from a standard cap to 2 different magnum strength caps and then to a 209 primer. This vat about 70 grains in the .50 caliber.
With the Triple Seven the powder has a higher combustion temperature compared to Pyrodex. If you use too large of a charge you may see the formation of a glass-like deposit in front of where the projectile sat on the charge. This may happen if the gas temperatures behind the projectile go above 1600 degrees. That is where the potassium carbonate in the combustion residue melts to a liquid and then cools to a glass-like film that does not readily dissolve in a wet cleaning patch. When that point is reached it is wise to reduce the charge a bit until the "skin" is no longer a problem when you go to load another charge and projectile.
Mad Monk
Cool read Ws! Thanks for posting!
love it
loose powder is the way to go to fine tune a load
i use it for years in my inline and sidelock ml
loose powder is the way to go to fine tune a load
i use it for years in my inline and sidelock ml
Matador
Well-Known Member
Good info WS. Thanks for posting.
Mike Belt
Well-Known Member
No problems here with 777.
https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS%20File ... t-2013.pdf
Charcoal 10%
Sodium Benzoate 10%
Potassium Nitrate 30%
Potassium Perchlorate 30%
Dicyaniamide 10%
Dextrin 10%
Other ingredients trade secret
Charcoal 10%
Sodium Benzoate 10%
Potassium Nitrate 30%
Potassium Perchlorate 30%
Dicyaniamide 10%
Dextrin 10%
Other ingredients trade secret
10
10
30
30
10
10
=100% wonder what could be in it other than whats listed ,cooking can list certain things as spices without getting technical but this may be different. if I still smoked id try blackhorn .
10
30
30
10
10
=100% wonder what could be in it other than whats listed ,cooking can list certain things as spices without getting technical but this may be different. if I still smoked id try blackhorn .
mike243 said:
Trace amounts of things that are non toxic are not required to be listed in a MSDS. Its my understanding that some things can be within 10% of the actual amount so it might just be rounded up.
I dont smoke much either anymore but when i do its BH209 or Swiss. I dont care for Triple7.
The point i was making is that the MSDS does say Triple7 contains Dicyaniamide and Potassium Perchlorate
Wobblyshot1
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2010
- Messages
- 3,513
Boone 58 said:
I hear they are similar to triple 7 without the color. However, the velocities obtained with it seem to be a little lower. One complaint I've read about was that they cost more(unless that's changed of late),otherwise, they seem to get decent reviews from those who are using them.
