Timber Advice...

[BlountArrow]

I'm looking to timber approximately 60+/- acres in Blount County. All of the timber is mature, been standing for who knows how long. I don't believe the property has ever been timbered in mine or my grandfather's lifetime. It is almost completely mature hardwoods. I'm looking for some suggestions on reputable timber companies. Do you know anyone? I've read in a book to be sure and get bids from "state licensed foresters". I'm looking to sale the timber to help fund another project of mine. Also, I'd love to hear any lessons learned you may have from your own experiences, but more than anything I need to find some reputable companies to come in and give me some bids. I would like to have it timbered this winter sometime if possible. Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[BSK]

I'm looking for some suggestions on reputable timber companies. Do you know anyone?

And that's the rub. Finding reputable loggers can be very, very difficult. It took me many years to find a logger I liked, and now it looks like he is retiring. :(

 

[nate17]

If you're willing to put the effort in, judging timber grades and volumes isnt rocket science. If you have the time to do the homework and learn a little about it, make a few random trips to the mill with the logger for your peace of mind. It was a little time consuming, but kept our guy pretty honest.

 

[Football Hunter]

I'm looking for some suggestions on reputable timber companies. Do you know anyone?

And that's the rub. Finding reputatable loggers can be very, very difficult. It took me many years to find a logger I liked, and now it looks like he is retiring. :(

Jeremy is retiring?

 

[treefarmer]

If the sale will be 10 acres or more consider hiring a Consulting Forester and paying him to estimate the timber volume, solicit bids, and oversee the work. A Consulting forester works with loggers regularly and they need to do a good job for the forester or they aren't invited to bid again. I am about to thin 180 acres of pine and the forester I've chosen is charging 8% of the timber sale. I have read where a forester will bring higher bids by enough to cover their fee. They also verify the logger has insurance and frequently get you paid up front. You can ask your area forester who he would recommend or check out the consulting forester directory at http://www.tn.gov/agriculture/publicati ... ectory.pdf

 

[BlountArrow]

If the sale will be 10 acres or more consider hiring a Consulting Forester and paying him to estimate the timber volume, solicit bids, and oversee the work. A Consulting forester works with loggers regularly and they need to do a good job for the forester or they aren't invited to bid again. I am about to thin 180 acres of pine and the forester I've chosen is charging 8% of the timber sale. I have read where a forester will bring higher bids by enough to cover their fee. They also verify the logger has insurance and frequently get you paid up front. You can ask your area forester who he would recommend or check out the consulting forester directory at http://www.tn.gov/agriculture/publicati ... ectory.pdf

This sounds like the nugget I was looking for...thanks-a-million. I will look into this as well.

 

[BlountArrow]

Anybody got anything else - recommendations, horror stories, what to do, what not to do???

 

[BSK]

I'm looking for some suggestions on reputable timber companies. Do you know anyone?

And that's the rub. Finding reputatable loggers can be very, very difficult. It took me many years to find a logger I liked, and now it looks like he is retiring. :(

Jeremy is retiring?

Jeremey isn't cutting at all anymore. he found a "real" job (and a girlfriend)! His dad is in the early stages of congestive heart failure.

 

[BSK]

If the sale will be 10 acres or more consider hiring a Consulting Forester and paying him to estimate the timber volume, solicit bids, and oversee the work. A Consulting forester works with loggers regularly and they need to do a good job for the forester or they aren't invited to bid again. I am about to thin 180 acres of pine and the forester I've chosen is charging 8% of the timber sale. I have read where a forester will bring higher bids by enough to cover their fee. They also verify the logger has insurance and frequently get you paid up front. You can ask your area forester who he would recommend or check out the consulting forester directory at http://www.tn.gov/agriculture/publicati ... ectory.pdf

This sounds like the nugget I was looking for...thanks-a-million. I will look into this as well.

Excellent advice!

 

[Football Hunter]

I'm looking for some suggestions on reputable timber companies. Do you know anyone?

And that's the rub. Finding reputatable loggers can be very, very difficult. It took me many years to find a logger I liked, and now it looks like he is retiring. :(

Jeremy is retiring?

Jeremey isn't cutting at all anymore. he found a "real" job (and a girlfriend)! His dad is in the early stages of congestive heart failure.

Ok,hate to hear that

 

[BSK]

Anybody got anything else - recommendations, horror stories, what to do, what not to do???

All of my horror stories involve loggers starting the job, cherry picking a few trees, and then leaving. That's happened half a dozen times.

 

[Football Hunter]

Anybody got anything else - recommendations, horror stories, what to do, what not to do???

All of my horror stories involve loggers starting the job, cherry picking a few trees, and then leaving. That's happened half a dozen times.

I wonder if thats typical of the industry,or has to do with the difficulty of your place as you have described,or maybe some of both?

 

[BSK]

Anybody got anything else - recommendations, horror stories, what to do, what not to do???

All of my horror stories involve loggers starting the job, cherry picking a few trees, and then leaving. That's happened half a dozen times.

I wonder if thats typical of the industry,or has to do with the difficulty of your place as you have described,or maybe some of both?

Everything comes down to the type of job you want done, the quality if the timber, and the acreage involved. It's hardest to get loggers to do custom jobs like I want. Much easier to get them to do large jobs (select-cut or clear-cut a large acreage area).

You can definitely help get a job done if the loggers buy the timber up front. Then they are on the hook to cut and make a profit. With the strange, custom cuts I want done, I usually have to work on a percentage cut basis, and once a logger has the fastest profit tree out, he is less likely to stick around and cut everything I want cut, especially if that doesn't turn the profit he is looking for.

 

[Hawk]

A good place to start is the Tennwssee Division of Forrestry. Contact them and they will look at the timber and prepare a Forrest Management Plan and examination report.

 

[bigtex]

All of my horror stories involve loggers starting the job, cherry picking a few trees, and then leaving. That's happened half a dozen times.

I can't even get my "logger" to show up. I've had a contract signed since February of this year and he was to be finished and gone by Sept. 1st. Even paid a security deposit saying he would. [at least I got that much out of it]
I even went through all the correct channels, Forrester, etc.
Evidently "some" loggers are like house contractors, they take on more than they know they can do in a specific period of time. I'm going to give him another week then i'm calling my forrester and tell him to try and get someone else.
To the OP good luck!!!!!!!

 

[timberjack86]

What county are you in? I might can point you in the right way if your close to me.

 

[BlountArrow]

What county are you in? I might can point you in the right way if your close to me.

Blount County
Thanks.

 

[DaveB]

There is a Tennessee hardwood lumber association, I can't remember the corrrect name, right here in Cordova, I know the building, I think this is the phone number.
901-377-1818. Call them and see if they have someone they would recommend, or a list of approved loggers. Website is
http://www.nhla.com/

 

[timberjack86]

What county are you in? I might can point you in the right way if your close to me.

Blount County
Thanks.

I guess I could have guessd that from your name :D I dont know anyone from blount county. I tell everyone before you hire a timber guy ask him for some refrences to call. There is nothing better than talking with landowners he has worked for in the past and finding out how satisfied they were with the job he did. If he wont provide refrences find another logger that will!

 

[timberjack86]

Anybody got anything else - recommendations, horror stories, what to do, what not to do???

All of my horror stories involve loggers starting the job, cherry picking a few trees, and then leaving. That's happened half a dozen times.

I wonder if thats typical of the industry,or has to do with the difficulty of your place as you have described,or maybe some of both?

Everything comes down to the type of job you want done, the quality if the timber, and the acreage involved. It's hardest to get loggers to do custom jobs like I want. Much easier to get them to do large jobs (select-cut or clear-cut a large acreage area).

You can definitely help get a job done if the loggers buy the timber up front. Then they are on the hook to cut and make a profit. With the strange, custom cuts I want done, I usually have to work on a percentage cut basis, and once a logger has the fastest profit tree out, he is less likely to stick around and cut everything I want cut, especially if that doesn't turn the profit he is looking for.

We have done jobs like that and stayed till it was done the way the landower wanted. Never mind we almost starved to death a few times :D

 

[BSK]

I tell everyone before you hire a timber guy ask him for some refrences to call. There is nothing better than talking with landowners he has worked for in the past and finding out how satisfied they were with the job he did. If he wont provide refrences find another logger that will!

EXCELLENT advice.

 

[Swampster]

I've never cut mine, but have always also read that you should hire a forester to oversee the whole process. For most people, this is usually a once in a lifetime transaction if you are talking hardwood. He might also be able to help you decide WHEN to sell. I have no idea what prices are doing now. I would think the sluggish economy might have dampened demand a little. Unemployment and the dry summer may have put more wood on the market as well.

You might drive around your county and look for areas that have been logged over the last year or so. Contact the owner and ask about his experience and maybe a tour of the land. Property Assessment web page will help you locate the owner if you don't know. Good luck and don't get into a hurry.

 

[BlountArrow]

I'm getting ready to contact a State Forester. Have any of you heard anything good or bad or dealt with any of the following individuals?
D.D. Nielsen
Greg Hutson
Mark Kettenbeil
Jeff Holt
W. Jim Cortese

 

[PickettSFHunter]

I know Cortese has the experience and definitely the certifications and education in regards to everything tree related. I dont personally know the man but have seen alot of his urban work. He is one of the educated few fighting this tree topping deal. My horticulture professor does some work with and for them from time to time.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Ill add a bit. Whenever timber is being cut in my area, I find out who is cutting and just watch how they do on those jobs. The big thing for me is to look at the loggers own lands. If a logger has been successful then he will likely own timberland and quite a bit of it to cut when timber is high and between jobs. If a logger manages his own timber and land properly, then that is more likely to transfer to your land as well. I look at some loggers places here and they have terrible erosion problems, leave lots of damaged trees behind, break tops out at a high percentage, dont smooth roads back over,etc etc. Then I look at the guys place that I will use and have used and his timber cuts are perfectly done.

 

[BlountArrow]

I know Cortese has the experience and definitely the certifications and education in regards to everything tree related. I dont personally know the man but have seen alot of his urban work. He is one of the educated few fighting this tree topping deal. My horticulture professor does some work with and for them from time to time.

I'm definitely going to go through a Certified Forester as mentioned, and I did speak with Cortese who put me in contact with Jeff Holt. Apparently he and Holt work together and Cortese sticks to the urban stuff and Holt is the guy that tromps around in the woods.

I did learn something interesting about the current timber market. Prices are down, that is not shocking. However, Holt told me I need to be prepared to wait possibly up to 2 years to get all the money and for the 60 - 80 acre job to complete. Maybe that is common knowledge to some of you, but that surprised me. I just assumed a logger turned in a bid, got hired, payed some up front, cut the timber, job completes, and pays the rest of the money owed. Holt made it sound to me like it is becoming common place for the loggers to cut a little at a time as the mills demand it and I'm sure the price fluctuations influences when it is cut as well. I'm not hurting for the money, but the thought of someone being essentially an "occupant" on my land for 2 years I don't like. Guaranteed there will be schedule conflicts and times when he's there that I don't want him to be, etc, etc. Oh well, I'm still going to do it and have Holt do a site visit with me.

 

[BSK]

BlountArrow,

With my last logger, I wrote a contract that lasted for 2 years, but the contract also specified he could not cut butween Oct. 1 and Jan. 15 (basically, deer season).

 

[BlountArrow]

BlountArrow,

With my last logger, I wrote a contract that lasted for 2 years, but the contract also specified he could not cut butween Oct. 1 and Jan. 15 (basically, deer season).

That's smart. I need to change my thought process here, not back myself into a corner, and at least try to put some of my own reasonable stipulations in place. Thanks for mentioning that.

 

[timberjack86]

I know Cortese has the experience and definitely the certifications and education in regards to everything tree related. I dont personally know the man but have seen alot of his urban work. He is one of the educated few fighting this tree topping deal. My horticulture professor does some work with and for them from time to time.

I'm definitely going to go through a Certified Forester as mentioned, and I did speak with Cortese who put me in contact with Jeff Holt. Apparently he and Holt work together and Cortese sticks to the urban stuff and Holt is the guy that tromps around in the woods.

I did learn something interesting about the current timber market. Prices are down, that is not shocking. However, Holt told me I need to be prepared to wait possibly up to 2 years to get all the money and for the 60 - 80 acre job to complete. Maybe that is common knowledge to some of you, but that surprised me. I just assumed a logger turned in a bid, got hired, payed some up front, cut the timber, job completes, and pays the rest of the money owed. Holt made it sound to me like it is becoming common place for the loggers to cut a little at a time as the mills demand it and I'm sure the price fluctuations influences when it is cut as well. I'm not hurting for the money, but the thought of someone being essentially an "occupant" on my land for 2 years I don't like. Guaranteed there will be schedule conflicts and times when he's there that I don't want him to be, etc, etc. Oh well, I'm still going to do it and have Holt do a site visit with me.

I just sighned a contract for 300 acres the other day. Heres the way we do it. I always insist that the landowner consider doing the job on a percentage. When we buy standing timber up front not only are we taking a risk at losing money the landowner is taking a risk.When we cruise timber there is always something you miss or the trees could be bad in the heart or there could be more money in it than what we see. That would equal more money for the landowner. When we cruise a track of timber we give an low estimate of what we think the landowner will get with the current timber prices. Say its a small track and we guarantee $10,000. We think it will do better than that but you can never tell what the market will be or what the trees look like on the inside. But if we guarantee $10,000 the landowner will get it regardless. We may lose money but thats why we estimate low. If the track cuts out $20,000 the landower will get it and he will be pleasently suprised, And useally thats the way it goes.Thats just the way I do it and it works for me. But by all means hire a forester.They can give you a good estimate of your timbers value that way your not at the mercy of a crooked logger and believe they are alot of them. A 60-80 acre job shouldnt take a logger any longer than 8 or 9 months.Unless we have really wet year and you have steep terrain or really swampy ground. Sorry for the long post.

 

[BSK]

timberjack86,

Thanks for an excellent description of the process.

Each of the options have their upsides and downsides. An upfront bid payment has the upside of the landowner getting paid in full up front. However, as you mention, the logger must bid low to ensure they make a profit. The percentage of logs sold process has the best chance of maximizing income for the landowner. Yet this also opens the door for a logger high-grading out the most profitable trees and leaving the job unfinished.

As a landowner, you take your chances either way. Either get your money up front, but realizing you aren't getting anywhere near the real value of the timber, versus getting the real value but potentially not getting the job done and potentially having the best timber removed, hence much lower chances of interesting another logger in the future. I've been both burned and pleased with both types of contracts.