They're going pretty good

[RoyalPrudent]

My local birds have been gobbling pretty good for the last week. I have to say, I am not currently a fan of moving the whole season back 2 weeks. I have no problem with the reduction in birds, but I'm not sure what benefit we get from moving the entire season back so far.

 

[Spurhunter]

I'm not sure what benefit we get from moving the entire season back so far.

Biology 101. More hens get bred before gobblers are killed.

 

[megalomaniac]

Birds don't 'gobble out' as the season progresses.... They stop gobbling due to hunting pressure. Delaying the season 2 weeks will allow many more other states to open as or before TN opens, decreasing the NR pressure in TN (and maybe even some resident pressure as TN residents travel to other states). A decrease in pressure will result in increased gobbling. This is especially true on public lands, but there are also a lot of private lands in TN hunted by nonresidents.

For sure in today's new turkey hunting world, you don't want to be one of the earliest openings compared to your neighbors.

 

[Spurhunter]

Birds don't 'gobble out' as the season progresses.... They stop gobbling due to hunting pressure. Delaying the season 2 weeks will allow many more other states to open as or before TN opens, decreasing the NR pressure in TN (and maybe even some resident pressure as TN residents travel to other states). A decrease in pressure will result in increased gobbling. This is especially true on public lands, but there are also a lot of private lands in TN hunted by nonresidents.

For sure in today's new turkey hunting world, you don't want to be one of the earliest openings compared to your neighbors.

I know several TN guys that are focusing on MS this year. Especially the ones that won't have to wait 2 weeks because they have access to private land. I have access to some decent private land in MS, but I just don't have the fever this year. Maybe that will change in the next couple weeks.

 

[megalomaniac]

I know several TN guys that are focusing on MS this year. Especially the ones that won't have to wait 2 weeks because they have access to private land. I have access to some decent private land in MS, but I just don't have the fever this year. Maybe that will change in the next couple weeks.

MS has the earliest opening by far in the nation except for south Florida (and technically Hawaii). The hardcore hunters are fired up and ready to go, so NRs in MS have gotten almost out of control. Much better to be one of the latest states to close, as many hardcore hunters are exhausted after 10 weeks of hunting.

My biggest complaint with the MS season is how different the birds are from north to south. Where I live, they are absolutely fired up mid March, and hens are starting to lay late March. But in north MS, birds are a week to 2 weeks behind. It's hard to set a statewide season structure with that much variation.

As of right now, I'm planning on hunting opening weekend in Starkville unless I can find a pocket of birds here locally to hunt. Starkville birds won't be as fired up, but I'd rather hunt henned up toms that don't respond to a call than no toms at all!!!!

 

[AT Hiker]

Biology 101. More hens get bred before gobblers are killed.

Reproductive biology 201. Hens that nest early have a 3-4x better chance than those that nest later. Get all those quality hens bred before the shotguns start blasting and overall reproduction should increase, in theory.

 

[knightrider]

Reproductive biology 201. Hens that nest early have a 3-4x better chance than those that nest later. Get all those quality hens bred before the shotguns start blasting and overall reproduction should increase, in theory.

In theory season starting the same dates it has for YEARS does not suddenly cause a monstrous decline in turkey numbers. Twra grasping at straws way to little way to late

 

[AT Hiker]

In theory season starting the same dates it has for YEARS does not suddenly cause a monstrous decline in turkey numbers. Twra grasping at straws way to little way to late

They may be grasping but at least they have some form of data to backup the theory.

https://academic.oup.com/auk/article/140/1/ukac050/6731911

 

[Carlos Viagra]

In theory season starting the same dates it has for YEARS does not suddenly cause a monstrous decline in turkey numbers. Twra grasping at straws way to little way to late

This.

 

[AT Hiker]

What's done is done, we slaughtered the birds. IMO, we were taking too many adult birds out the last decade, just assuming our population was stable. Then the crash happened, saved by a few good hatches here and there. Harvest data will likely represent a boom n bust cycle, with naysayers saying "see, it's not too bad".
Now, we are dealt with the protecting this delicate resource and the big question of, how? Season structure and regulations are about the only thing practical, for now.

 

[megalomaniac]

Me personally, I'd rather have just 1 week of awesome turkey hunting than 6 weeks of mediocre to poor hunting. But just like any other addict, I'm going to be in the turkey woods every single free second I have off as long as season is open hoping for just 1 more gobble. I need someone (the state) to restrict me for my own good.

Heck, it's so bad I'm going to scout a new place in the morning for just 30 min before work tomorrow... and season doesn't even open for another week here!

Upside, got another invitation to hunt a new property an hour ago. Downside, it's 30 min away.

I have more places to hunt than I can hit this season between public and private. But still don't have a single bird pinned down yet, and have no idea if these private places even have birds.

Talked to a fellow turkey hunter friend today to check on his birds... they are not gobbling yet, and he sees 2 or 3 toms every day on his farm.

 

[Setterman]

Not sure how this will all turn out to be honest. There's scientific data all over the place right now. Maybe, and hopefully this will shed light on things a little bit.

One thing I do firmly believe is that we massacred our birds. Starting with the 4 bird limit, followed by decoy saturation allowing rubes to kill big mature birds at will, and finally with long range loads.

greed and laziness by some hunters may have cost us season dates and bag limits.

I ask a few questions of people complaining about the changes. Did you support the 4 bird limit? Do you hunt over a decoy? Do you shoot jakes? If the answe to those is 2 or more yes answers and you're complaining, look in the mirror as you're a big reason as to why we have our new regs in my opinion.

 

[megalomaniac]

Part of me wishes we set our seasons based on actual biology. The premise being, you can never kill too many toms IF they are killed after all the hens have been bred.

The little devil on my shoulder sort of wishes we had NO limit, but open season May 1 thru June 30, and all jakes are off limits (so they are mature the following April to breed the hens). My only reservation with that is the baiters could have a field day with that killing a dozen toms back in bachelor groups mid June over their bait piles.

 

[muddyboots]

In theory season starting the same dates it has for YEARS does not suddenly cause a monstrous decline in turkey numbers. Twra grasping at straws way to little way to late

Amen!

 

[muddyboots]

Not sure how this will all turn out to be honest. There's scientific data all over the place right now. Maybe, and hopefully this will shed light on things a little bit.

One thing I do firmly believe is that we massacred our birds. Starting with the 4 bird limit, followed by decoy saturation allowing rubes to kill big mature birds at will, and finally with long range loads.

greed and laziness by some hunters may have cost us season dates and bag limits.

I ask a few questions of people complaining about the changes. Did you support the 4 bird limit? Do you hunt over a decoy? Do you shoot jakes? If the answe to those is 2 or more yes answers and you're complaining, look in the mirror as you're a big reason as to why we have our new regs in my opinion.

2 no's. I have used decoy with my daughter.

 

[deerfever]

How did we have such a great hatch this past season with no two week delay? The same way we always have and will in the future. Weather , predators and habitat determine nesting success. Nothing wrong at all with our past opening dates . No problem at all with the two bird limit , moving our season was unnecessary in my opinion only , as I could be wrong ( will not be first time). I wish they had at least compromised and went with the commissioners original request at the meeting to just move it back 1 week( I think most would have been fine with that). I do not use decoys or a fan at all and you will not kill a boss Tom in the early season using just a call unless you are really lucky or just that good , he is not leaving the real deal. I do have a question for those that believe the dominant gobbler theory. If we wait on season so " the hens can be bred" why do we need a two bird limit? The Gobblers work has been done according to the theory. Why not just leave it at 3? Again I want to stress I have no problem with the limit but just a question. Also only a small percentage I believe around 10 percent or less killed 3 birds anyway, with most people killing just 1. Remember we have actually went from 5 birds to 2, we used to be allowed a bonus bird on quota hunts. Just a thought that I have wondered about.

 

[Huntaholic]

How did we have such a great hatch this past season with no two week delay? The same way we always have and will in the future. Weather , predators and habitat determine nesting success. Nothing wrong at all with our past opening dates . No problem at all with the two bird limit , moving our season was unnecessary in my opinion only , as I could be wrong ( will not be first time). I wish they had at least compromised and went with the commissioners original request at the meeting to just move it back 1 week( I think most would have been fine with that). I do not use decoys or a fan at all and you will not kill a boss Tom in the early season using just a call unless you are really lucky or just that good , he is not leaving the real deal. I do have a question for those that believe the dominant gobbler theory. If we wait on season so " the hens can be bred" why do we need a two bird limit? The Gobblers work has been done according to the theory. Why not just leave it at 3? Again I want to stress I have no problem with the limit but just a question. Also only a small percentage I believe around 10 percent or less killed 3 birds anyway, with most people killing just 1. Remember we have actually went from 5 birds to 2, we used to be allowed a bonus bird on quota hunts. Just a thought that I have wondered about.

Color me guilty. Ive killed a limit EVERY year since about 1990. When it was 2 statewide and 2 WMA, I killed 4 LEGALLY. Once it went to 4 period, I killed 4. If the limit had been 10, I would have killed 10. No blinds and no decoys, no bushwhacking, just HUNT and learn the birds. With that said, I NEVER over hunted an area and always spread my kills out into multiple counties. My only gripe is that instead of taking 2 weeks off the front and putting them on the back, just shorten it 2 weeks period.

 

[megalomaniac]

How did we have such a great hatch this past season with no two week delay? The same way we always have and will in the future. Weather , predators and habitat determine nesting success. Nothing wrong at all with our past opening dates . No problem at all with the two bird limit , moving our season was unnecessary in my opinion only , as I could be wrong ( will not be first time). I wish they had at least compromised and went with the commissioners original request at the meeting to just move it back 1 week( I think most would have been fine with that). I do not use decoys or a fan at all and you will not kill a boss Tom in the early season using just a call unless you are really lucky or just that good , he is not leaving the real deal. I do have a question for those that believe the dominant gobbler theory. If we wait on season so " the hens can be bred" why do we need a two bird limit? The Gobblers work has been done according to the theory. Why not just leave it at 3? Again I want to stress I have no problem with the limit but just a question. Also only a small percentage I believe around 10 percent or less killed 3 birds anyway, with most people killing just 1. Remember we have actually went from 5 birds to 2, we used to be allowed a bonus bird on quota hunts. Just a thought that I have wondered about.

I don't believe in the dominant gobbler theory, just basic biology facts.

Fact... hens control breeding. hens allow toms to mate with them unlike other poultry

Fact.... to ensure maximum fertility, hens desire to mate approx 7 to 10 days before initiation of nests (start of egg laying).

Fact... fertility begins to drop 7 days after mating. For this reason, most hens will mate multiple times during egglaying.

Fact... The average nest initiation in TN is end of April. Sure, a few start earlier, a few start later.

Fact.... the average hen mates for the first time in TN the 3rd week of April.

Fact.... hens that do not mate will not hatch any eggs, even though they may initiate a nest and may complete a full clutch.

While we cant control the weather, we can improve nesting success by managing habitat, predators, and ensuring a few toms make it all the way through the end of the season to ensure hens get bred the first time, as well as have a chance to initiate a fertilized 2nd or even 3rd clutch if they lose their first nest.

And dry springs result in better spring hatches not because the poults get wet and drown, but because the setting hen doesn't get wet and stink to high heaven attracting evert predator around

As far as limit... we don't need one at all... IF the toms are all killed AFTER all hens have been bred (which is likely around July 1st in TN), AND ALL jakes are protected to ensure there are 2yo mature toms to do the mating the following spring.

 

[megalomaniac]

I do not use decoys or a fan at all and you will not kill a boss Tom in the early season using just a call unless you are really lucky or just that good , he is not leaving the real deal.

You are exactly right about this.... BUT I would bet over half the toms killed in the first 2 weeks are killed over strutter decoys or reaping nowadays. So it has actually become a HUGE problem removing the most fitting mate before he has bred any hens.

 

[prstide]

You are exactly right about this.... BUT I would bet over half the toms killed in the first 2 weeks are killed over strutter decoys or reaping nowadays. So it has actually become a HUGE problem removing the most fitting mate before he has bred any hens.

Isn't that the dominant gobbler theory you just said you don't believe?

 

[megalomaniac]

Isn't that the dominant gobbler theory you just said you don't believe?

Its my understanding the 'dominant gobbler theory' is that the hens observe every available male bird on the landscape, then choose the most suitable male, then only allow only that particular male to mate with her. If he is killed, the hen must start all over, reassess every adult male on the landscape, then pick the next most suitable male. If he is killed prior to mating, she has to start all over again without mating and pick the next male in line. If he is killed, and was the last one, she never mates.

I don't hang on Chamberlains every word, so maybe I'm not getting the 'dominant gobbler theory' so many are focused on (either in support or refute).

All I know is what happens in the real world... not some theory or academia which may or may not apply to the real world.

Toms absolutely compete with one another PRIOR to breeding and DURING breeding (no different than every other animal species) to ensure the most fit sires the most offspring. However, just like any other animal species, a hen would rather mate with a less than optimal mate if no optimal mate is available rather than not procreate at all.

So in essence, what happens in the real world is that a hen will allow ANY tom to mate with her when she ovulates, but shows preference to the most desirable (in her mind) at the time of ovulation. She will also mate with other males during ovulation (if available) to ensure greater genetic diversity.


So.... IF the strongest and most fit male is removed before breeding.... is that good for the species? Do you think it makes no difference whatsoever?

But all this comes down to whether we put the turkeys first, or our own self interests killing them first. The only thing I put ahead of killing turkeys now is making sure I have turkeys to kill 2, 5, 10, 30 years from now.

 

[prstide]

Its my understanding the 'dominant gobbler theory' is that the hens observe every available male bird on the landscape, then choose the most suitable male, then only allow only that particular male to mate with her. If he is killed, the hen must start all over, reassess every adult male on the landscape, then pick the next most suitable male. If he is killed prior to mating, she has to start all over again without mating and pick the next male in line. If he is killed, and was the last one, she never mates.

I don't hang on Chamberlains every word, so maybe I'm not getting the 'dominant gobbler theory' so many are focused on (either in support or refute).

All I know is what happens in the real world... not some theory or academia which may or may not apply to the real world.

Toms absolutely compete with one another PRIOR to breeding and DURING breeding (no different than every other animal species) to ensure the most fit sires the most offspring. However, just like any other animal species, a hen would rather mate with a less than optimal mate if no optimal mate is available rather than not procreate at all.

So in essence, what happens in the real world is that a hen will allow ANY tom to mate with her when she ovulates, but shows preference to the most desirable (in her mind) at the time of ovulation. She will also mate with other males during ovulation (if available) to ensure greater genetic diversity.


So.... IF the strongest and most fit male is removed before breeding.... is that good for the species? Do you think it makes no difference whatsoever?

But all this comes down to whether we put the turkeys first, or our own self interests killing them first. The only thing I put ahead of killing turkeys now is making sure I have turkeys to kill 2, 5, 10, 30 years from now.

My understanding on it is that, due to social structure, when the dominant male(s) is(are) killed it resets the pecking order causing a delay in the breeding or lack of breeding for some hens.
The above scenario is exactly what happens when strutters are deployed during the first 2 weeks of season prior to hens becoming receptive to breeding.

 

[tellico4x4]

Heard 4 diff gobblers this morning from camp yard. 32 degrees at 5:45, Wayne Co. Got a work day today & another guy said he saw 3 strutters on way up.

 

[Setterman]

I absolutely believe in the dominant gobbler theory. Our populations started declining with the onslaught of strutter decoys. Look at Alabama's trend, it begins an immediate down turn the moment they legalized decoys. Too many dominant birds killed the first two weeks leaving hens not being bred therefore less nest initiation. This of course leads to a population decline over time.

For me it's blatantly obvious and has been that way for years upon years. Also, more googans killing more birds every year. These hunters stand no chance without the decoys this leading to less available gobblers in the flock to hunt and breed.

Hell I consider myself fairly seasoned in the Turkey woods and stand almost no chance with a henned up dominant bird, especially a field bird. Dang things are brutal to kill.

 

[megalomaniac]

Still haven't heard a peep in south MS. But I'm really not sure I've even been in the game. I've found one set of gobbler tracks in about 20 spots I've checked.

Also found 2 hens on a local WMA, but no tom with them. Boot tracks EVERYWHERE, even tho adult season doesnt open until Wednesday. Just insane how many folks turkey hunt nowadays.

And what's worse, sitting on feeders has become socially acceptable as a means to hunt down here. Baiting was BAD before, but it has become normalized and accepted past couple years I went to the local feed and seed store yesterday to pick up supplies for my garden. The owner asked if I went turkey hunting, then told me his grandson missed a bird yesterday. Then told me he cannot believe that only 17 turkeys eat a 50lbs sack of corn every 2 days. SMH. I think legalizing baiting for deer down here has spilled over to the mentality that's its ok to bait turkeys.

 

[muddyboots]

Heard 4 diff gobblers this morning from camp yard. 32 degrees at 5:45, Wayne Co. Got a work day today & another guy said he saw 3 strutters on way up.

Awesome! I didn't go out so I wouldn't get annoyed.

 

[square]

Populations started to decline with the increase in youtube hunters and more hunters killing limits in several states. Has this been examined? . I don't begrudge the average hunter using s decoy to kill a bird or 2. I use decoys but don't shoot jakes

 

[tellico4x4]

Awesome! I didn't go out so I wouldn't get annoyed.

Spent night at camp with new pup, she's the one who had me out that early

 

[Setterman]

Populations started to decline with the increase in youtube hunters and more hunters killing limits in several states. Has this been examined? . I don't begrudge the average hunter using s decoy to kill a bird or 2. I use decoys but don't shoot jakes

One of the biggest factors in more birds being killed by more hunters has been the onslaught of male decoys. Especially strutters. YouTube is absolutely full of video evidence of birds running across fields to die that would've otherwise survived that day. To me and in my opinion the answers are so obvious as to where it all started to decline

 

[AT Hiker]

Populations started to decline with the increase in youtube hunters and more hunters killing limits in several states. Has this been examined? . I don't begrudge the average hunter using s decoy to kill a bird or 2. I use decoys but don't shoot jakes

Every single state game agency and/or researcher I have listened to or read their work, never touches on this point. They all seem to reference "harvest data" and never once acknowledging, which I think is very obvious, that we have more turkey hunters killing a higher percentage of the population.

IMO, this is how the house starts crumbling down. You're spending a higher and higher percentage of your resource each year, until one year there is no more resource. Unlike finances, turkeys can't be borrowed on a credit card or bailed out by the Fed.