The Great Corn Debate

[drake799]

Alright with the battle raging about corn and flooded crops ruining duck hunting. What's everyone's take on the matter. Obviously let's keep it civil and respectful but would love to hear what everyone on here has to say. I'll go on record and say that I think it's definitely part of the problem but not 100% of it

 

[MickThompson]

I don't know if it's part of the problem, but… I have a hard time justifying the flooding of unharvested crops for ducks as normal agriculture

 

[SEC]

Poor me doesn't like it. But rich me would have a spread let me tell ya

 

[tn clyde]

I think it's a very small part of the problem. Loss of nesting habitat, snow line staying further north and at least this year in the west part of the state, lack of water are the main causes for a lack of ducks.

 

[younggun308]

November has to be reliably colder to push them down in good numbers. Central Missouri corn would be irrelevant if it locked up in December.

We (and places north of us, more importantly) don't get decent cold until December at the earliest, nowadays—and then it snaps back violently to 60-70 degrees for a spell, nullifying the effect.

 

[deerhunter10]

Not deep into waterfowl. But it would seem to me the duck numbers are a similar issues like turkeys... meaning death by a thousands cuts not one singular thing. Bad part is people in the south dont have say so in the habitat where they nest at. Fix the success rate of nesting then i would assume the success rate Will soon follow. I listen to a podcast that said there's a duck blind on around ever 50 acres on the Mississippi flew way. That's an ungodly amount of pressure as well. Its hard for a dummy like me That's from the outside looking in that its all the corns fault, and seems like low hanging fruit. The abnormal falls and winters the last 3 to 4 years hasn't helped at all either.

Maybe bag limits and seasons lengths also need to be looked at like they did for turkeys. I would also think many on here are Dove hunters to. Yall may want to be careful what you wish for, before your sunflower fields must be combined before being hunted.

 

[Westtnduckhtr]

All of the above comments are valid concerns some of which may or may not contribute to the problem. I am fortunate to be able to hunt in at least 3 or more states a year in addition to owning my own property to duck hunt. As an example this year WTN duck hunting is very poor. I am currently hunting in Nebraska this week after hunting in WTN last weekend, will be hunting Arkansas the last week of the season. While I do believe the duck population is low or in decline I am not able to actually personally verify and only can analyze from what I read or actually see. As pointed out in several above comments the weather and air temperature to me is one of the most important factors to success. While water level and food being what actually keeps the ducks in an area after their migration.
Currently where I am today in Nebraska I see and have seen thousands of ducks and geese everyday. They have no reason to leave, not cold enough for them to relocate and expend the energy to relocate. As a result there are less birds to the south only moving far enough to be able to have open water and have a viable food source near by of they did. In conclusion the ducks are being imprinted to those locations that meet this criteria. Example, having hunted and witnessed Habitat Flats you can see why this spot and hundreds of others locations private or commercial like it have the ducks that have made it that far south. They know by experience where to go with water, food and lack of pressure keeping them there. It is very important to not over hunt and pressure a location. Everyday I hunt here we are in a new location, privately owned and rested. Today's location had not been hunted in 2 weeks. Why should they leave and fly to TN when they can sit on the Platte River and enjoy life. The choice is about survival. Todays hunt picture, yesterday's in one of the other threads in this forum.

 

[MickThompson]

November has to be reliably colder to push them down in good numbers. Central Missouri corn would be irrelevant if it locked up in December.

We (and places north of us, more importantly) don't get decent cold until December at the earliest, nowadays—and then it snaps back violently to 60-70 degrees for a spell, nullifying the effect.

With ice eaters and pumps, they can keep that corn relevant regardless of how cold it gets as long as pockets are deep enough to pay the diesel bill.

 

[yellalinehunter]

With ice eaters and pumps, they can keep that corn relevant regardless of how cold it gets as long as pockets are deep enough to pay the diesel bill.

That was the other half of my thoughts on the matter. Seems pumping a field that should be dry normally and then running a machine to melt ice that should be naturally be freezing seems like manipulation. I know it's a thin line and once crossed could get messy for other aspects of hunting. Food plots and dove fields could be viewed the same in some way.

 

[Iglow]

There's plenty of dux but they are smart, a little( or rather a lot) pressure and they go nocturnal and it seems they are gone.
The ones we saw yesterday wanted nothing to do with anything duck hunting related, calls, blinds,decoys,spinners. They came in and avoided all of it and sat down in open water. They are smart and they learn.

 

[drake799]

With ice eaters and pumps, they can keep that corn relevant regardless of how cold it gets as long as pockets are deep enough to pay the diesel bill.

That's my thinking is I don't believe it can get too cold for them anymore. Things are manipulated and done to keep them at all cost They have all the food and water they need right at their wingtips why would they leave.

 

[drake799]

Not deep into waterfowl. But it would seem to me the duck numbers are a similar issues like turkeys... meaning death by a thousands cuts not one singular thing. Bad part is people in the south dont have say so in the habitat where they nest at. Fix the success rate of nesting then i would assume the success rate Will soon follow. I listen to a podcast that said there's a duck blind on around ever 50 acres on the Mississippi flew way. That's an ungodly amount of pressure as well. Its hard for a dummy like me That's from the outside looking in that its all the corns fault, and seems like low hanging fruit. The abnormal falls and winters the last 3 to 4 years hasn't helped at all either.

Maybe bag limits and seasons lengths also need to be looked at like they did for turkeys. I would also think many on here are Dove hunters to. Yall may want to be careful what you wish for, before your sunflower fields must be combined before being hunted.

I'm with you on this thought at well. I don't believe we have near the ducks we use to or they say we have And the ones we have are being held up north and now this generation doesn't know to migrate like years ago

 

[Iglow]

What happened to the dux? Duck Dynasty and youtube happened to them. Now they are hounded like hell from September till February and the only time they can get any peace is at night.

 

[MickThompson]

There's conservation value to having fields leveed or pumped up and holding water well after seasons have ended. These birds still need the fuel and rest areas as they return the 1000 miles or more to their nesting grounds in good condition. We've destroyed a lot of natural wetlands in the name of agriculture, progress, and hydropower so "natural only" isn't really an argument I could make with a straight face. If natural water only was the standard, we'd all be crammed into a very few spots this year in particular.

10+ years ago a guy could run around the reservoirs in middle Tennessee and scratch out a few but we've been in a negative trend for at least that long now at the continental scale. Fewer ducks means those of us at the margins or end of the flyway are the ones to pay. The best answer for everyone is more ducks and that starts and ends on what's left of the prairie, which is less every year.

Flooding crops and manipulating water for hunting is largely a question of fairness. But fairness is incredibly important in a resource that we agree to manage jointly and share across state jurisdictions.

 

[MickThompson]

What happened to the dux? Duck Dynasty and youtube happened to them. Now they are hounded like hell from September till February and the only time they can get any peace is at night.

They didn't drain the duck factory

 

[Midten20]

I'm with you on this thought at well. I don't believe we have near the ducks we use to or they say we have And the ones we have are being held up north and now this generation doesn't know to migrate like years ago

I would really like to see high altitude drone studies/fly overs of sitting ducks on these refuges…I feel like that's not a hard thing to do once a week these days. Just to get a clearer more consistent idea of what's in each area throughout the year all across the flyways.

 

[Chaneylake]

I don't know if it's part of the problem, but… I have a hard time justifying the flooding of unharvested crops for ducks as normal agriculture

refuges do it yearly if its in the budget

 

[yellalinehunter]

refuges do it yearly if its in the budget

They aren't hunting it though. And they are making a safe place for ducks.
Different in my opinion than doing it to hunt over

 

[TNGunsmoke]

I would really like to see high altitude drone studies/fly overs of sitting ducks on these refuges…I feel like that's not a hard thing to do once a week these days. Just to get a clearer more consistent idea of what's in each area throughout the year all across the flyways.

I'd like to see them do this for refuge counts. I'd thing a few drones would be much cheaper than an airplane and the maintenance on it.

As to the ducks, I think it's a combination of a lot of things. Weather, pressure, water(or the lack thereof), an argument can be made for flooded corn as well. I do think if flooded corn is outlawed for the public, it should be outlawed on the refuges as well. And I think it should be illegal to pour corn out of a truck on the refuges to keep birds in an area for birdwatchers and photographers with special blinds for viewing in areas that aren't accessible to hunters.

 

[yellalinehunter]

I'd like to see them do this for refuge counts. I'd thing a few drones would be much cheaper than an airplane and the maintenance on it.

As to the ducks, I think it's a combination of a lot of things. Weather, pressure, water(or the lack thereof), an argument can be made for flooded corn as well. I do think if flooded corn is outlawed for the public, it should be outlawed on the refuges as well. And I think it should be illegal to pour corn out of a truck on the refuges to keep birds in an area for birdwatchers and photographers with special blinds for viewing in areas that aren't accessible to hunters.

If they want to do that for bird watchers then they need to have a paid gate access to view the area

 

[Popcorn]

It was just a few years ago duck hunters were crying about all the preserve acres being created along the flyways, especially in Missouri being the cause of southern duck hunters misery. Now it's flooded corn fields, water pumps and ice eaters. Any port in a storm I guess. I am not a duck hunter, after having participated a couple times I have no further desire to be one. What I am is a property manager with a love for conservation.
What I see from the near side looking across firstly is that habitat for migratory birds is little different from habitat for any other game. Food and cover same as we do for deer, turkeys, dove and quail. Likewise with other factors. Weather cycles and changes as it has for eons. Disease ebbs and flows as it has for thousands of years. But there are two factors that man has manipulated from its natural state to extreme reduction then to even more extreme inflation. Man practically eradicated predators through trapping allowing a waterfowl population explosion, hunting pressure rose with popularity along with habitat restoration / creation and populations expanded even more. Then man stopped trapping, wetlands were drained to grow crops but hunting pressure didn't slow. Predation grew, man's harvest expectations remained ridiculously high and man becomes dissatisfied with the ebb and flow and begins to blame everything except the two most important factors, the hunters themselves and predation!
Lower your expectations and trap like coons we're worth $35 again!

 

[tickweed]

We cant add corn to the water, but we can add water to the corn? There have been several studies by several people, Cohen is only one group, who have been studying mallard migration now for l believe 6 years. These studies definitely prove the mallards are shortstopping, not coming near as far south. Direct ties to food sources. Mallards are very tough birds. They find food, no pressure, they stay. Plain, simple. Cold air doesn't affect them, other than make them need to feed more. They can find water on the big rivers, can also dry feed if need to. There are some big names. Clubs planting thousands of acres of corn, flooding it. Hunting edges, charging high dollar amounts to hunt. One group is charging 6200.00 for a three day hunt, that's per person, 6 duks a day, 18 total. Has a 3 yr wait list. Running big groups thru multiple blinds daily. I know of a guy not from here, in Who has bought four or five farms joined together, in west Tn. Plants lots corn, floods it. Doesn't hunt it much. Holding thousands. I have a friend who has hunted a farm that joins this big corn tract. For 30 yrs they have had same farm, never killed a hundred duks. Now stomping ever day, along with other farms that join it. He can't believe it. It absolutely does make a difference. To plant corn for harvest, on a very low end cost, 500.00 an acre would be very cheap. Seed is around 275 dollars for 2 1/2 acres, plus chemical, fertilizer, fuel. There is NO way it's a normal agricultural practice to plant corn, leave it, flood it. Yes, refuges have planted corn, but not thousands of acres. It's all about money. One other note, look at diver studies. They dont use crop fields. They still migrate. And yes, l do believe mallard numbers are down.

 

[yellalinehunter]

Studies also show the impacts of domestic mallards from preserves having a negative impact on wild mallards as far was body weight, wing size, migration drive, endurance and bill design that is a negative impact to wild birds

 

[Displaced_Vol]

Studies also show the impacts of domestic mallards from preserves having a negative impact on wild mallards as far was body weight, wing size, migration drive, endurance and bill design that is a negative impact to wild birds

I'm really interested in this stuff. Part of it is almost wishful thinking on my part, because I think it's an easier problem to fix than all the other things ducks are facing

 

[MickThompson]

I'm really interested in this stuff. Part of it is almost wishful thinking on my part, because I think it's an easier problem to fix than all the other things ducks are facing

How do you undo the hybridization (bastardization) that already happened?

 

[Displaced_Vol]

How do you undo the hybridization (bastardization) that already happened?

Happens naturally over time. Thankfully it's not too pervasive in the MS flyway yet, at least outside of a few pockets around the Great Lakes.
If I remember right, I've heard Dr. Lavretsky say that within a few generations the game farm dna has diminished to a point it doesn't have the negative impacts and the birds are essentially "wild" again.

edited to add I'm recalling that all from memory on a handful of podcasts I've heard this discussed, but I'm pretty sure I've got it right.

 

[WilcoKen]

We cant add corn to the water, but we can add water to the corn? There have been several studies by several people, Cohen is only one group, who have been studying mallard migration now for l believe 6 years. These studies definitely prove the mallards are shortstopping, not coming near as far south. Direct ties to food sources. Mallards are very tough birds. They find food, no pressure, they stay. Plain, simple. Cold air doesn't affect them, other than make them need to feed more. They can find water on the big rivers, can also dry feed if need to. There are some big names. Clubs planting thousands of acres of corn, flooding it. Hunting edges, charging high dollar amounts to hunt. One group is charging 6200.00 for a three day hunt, that's per person, 6 duks a day, 18 total. Has a 3 yr wait list. Running big groups thru multiple blinds daily. I know of a guy not from here, in Who has bought four or five farms joined together, in west Tn. Plants lots corn, floods it. Doesn't hunt it much. Holding thousands. I have a friend who has hunted a farm that joins this big corn tract. For 30 yrs they have had same farm, never killed a hundred duks. Now stomping ever day, along with other farms that join it. He can't believe it. It absolutely does make a difference. To plant corn for harvest, on a very low end cost, 500.00 an acre would be very cheap. Seed is around 275 dollars for 2 1/2 acres, plus chemical, fertilizer, fuel. There is NO way it's a normal agricultural practice to plant corn, leave it, flood it. Yes, refuges have planted corn, but not thousands of acres. It's all about money. One other note, look at diver studies. They dont use crop fields. They still migrate. And yes, l do believe mallard numbers are down.

Good post.

 

[yellalinehunter]

How do you undo the hybridization (bastardization) that already happened?

Outlaw the release of domesticated migration avian species

 

[yellalinehunter]

Outlaw the release of domesticated migration avian species. Same study also showed the same traits could be bred out in 3 generations

 

[tn clyde]

We cant add corn to the water, but we can add water to the corn? There have been several studies by several people, Cohen is only one group, who have been studying mallard migration now for l believe 6 years. These studies definitely prove the mallards are shortstopping, not coming near as far south. Direct ties to food sources. Mallards are very tough birds. They find food, no pressure, they stay. Plain, simple. Cold air doesn't affect them, other than make them need to feed more. They can find water on the big rivers, can also dry feed if need to. There are some big names. Clubs planting thousands of acres of corn, flooding it. Hunting edges, charging high dollar amounts to hunt. One group is charging 6200.00 for a three day hunt, that's per person, 6 duks a day, 18 total. Has a 3 yr wait list. Running big groups thru multiple blinds daily. I know of a guy not from here, in Who has bought four or five farms joined together, in west Tn. Plants lots corn, floods it. Doesn't hunt it much. Holding thousands. I have a friend who has hunted a farm that joins this big corn tract. For 30 yrs they have had same farm, never killed a hundred duks. Now stomping ever day, along with other farms that join it. He can't believe it. It absolutely does make a difference. To plant corn for harvest, on a very low end cost, 500.00 an acre would be very cheap. Seed is around 275 dollars for 2 1/2 acres, plus chemical, fertilizer, fuel. There is NO way it's a normal agricultural practice to plant corn, leave it, flood it. Yes, refuges have planted corn, but not thousands of acres. It's all about money. One other note, look at diver studies. They dont use crop fields. They still migrate. And yes, l do believe mallard numbers are down.

We call them sausage ducks. My buddies farm is the same 75 to 150 ducks a year. Last two years, over 500 and they don't hunt much. Needless to say, he is all for flooding corn.