Teaching marskmanship

[BSK]

I know this isn't exactly a "serious deer hunting" topic, but it certainly pertains to it:

How do you teach marksmanship skills? Are there classes available? I have some family members that are just starting to deer hunt and they have some real problems with marksmanship. In addition, my daughter is just starting to shoot. I honestly don't know how to help them with any possible problems, as I was never really taught how to shoot (other than how to hold a BB-gun and aim down the sights).

 

[doubledownranch]

I'm going through the same thing with my girlfriend. "Look down the scope, put the X on the target and squeeze the trigger" over, and over, and over. Nothing helps. It blows my mind. To me its like telling someone how to breath, its difficult to explain or put into words.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Hard to explain that through a post. But I teach this alot in the military to kids that cant hit the broadside of a barn. I have my own ways of doing things but when teaching groups of people you need to come up with standard ways of doing things. You need to be able to recognize what a person is doing wrong when you see them shooting, its all experience, ie. you dont learn to shoot by reading a book, you learn to shoot by burning through ammo. You would be suprised how many people dont hold the rifle tight to their shoulder, dont get a good stock/cheek weld, close their eyes right before pulling the trigger. I like to teach to shoot right at the end of an exhale. These are all good things to look for. Good shooting starts with something like a .22, not a high power rifle. Learn to shoot a .22 and you can shoot any other rifle.

 

[jb3]

What stone said. I burned through hundred's of .22's as a kid. All through a remington targetmaster single shot. No way you could get in a hurry shooting that. :)

 

[BMan]

Good shooting starts with something like a .22,
not a high power rifle.

Very true.

 

[eweisner]

I agree with smstone22, start 'em on .22's. I'd keep the targets close 25 yards and use something similar to what they will be using to hunt (bolt for boly, lever for lever, you get the idea. Don't talk about kick and recoil it's intimidating hence the .22. When I went through basic our Drill's taught is BRAS then modified it to BRAS-F. Breathe, Relax, Aim, Squeeze, Fire.

One thing that I do with my son is let him get set in a supported position, prone or whatever, and using his sling military style, dry fire with a $0.01 or $0.10 on the end of the barrel. If you can keep the sight on the target, pull the trigger, and not loose the coin consistently then you are headed in the right direction.

My son didn't think it could be done so I showed him it could. We were using his Rossi .243. I had everything in place then squeezed the trigger and nothing happened. It was then that I noticed that the hammer was not pulled all the way back. I slowly reached across with my right index finger and engaged the hammer and pulled the trigger and never lost the coin. Don't think I could do it again but chalk one up for dad!

 

[Nhill]

One thing that I do with my son is let him get set in a supported position, prone or whatever, and using his sling military style, dry fire with a $0.01 or $0.10 on the end of the barrel. If you can keep the sight on the target, pull the trigger, and not loose the coin consistently then you are headed in the right direction.

Good idea, I'm going to try that

 

[Diehard Hunter]

The hardest part I have in teaching marksmanship is getting the student to realize the gun must become an extension of themselves.

Everyone has the basic ability if they can point their finger at an object. They MUST start with that.

Watch a beginner and notice how uncomfortable they are with a gun. The body language shows they do not welcome the gun as part of their being (For lack of a better term). A seasoned marksman literally becomes one with the gun. The gun moves with their eyes, it is truly a part of them.

There was a video many years ago where a man taught marksmanship using bb guns without sights..I wish I could find it. What he was really teaching was becoming comfortable with the gun, and having it become an extension of the student's body. They pointed it just like pointing a finger.

Teach them to point it before you teach them to aim it, and the aiming becomes easy.

When I shot indoor pistol, it always amazed me when people's scores were higher on the rapid fire than on the slow fire. They were more accurate pointing than they were taking their time aiming. They did not have time to think about it, close an eye, and miss.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Ill say another thing, these marksmanship problems among deer hunters are becoming more and more common. Due to the abundance of deer, alot of new hunters never start out squirrel hunting anymore, they just go right to deer hunting. Squirrel hunting with a .22 is how marksmanship is taught the country way but its just not being done alot anymore. Perhaps you could have a get together where everyone practices with .22's and heads out for a morning squirrel hunt every now and then.

 

[Gravey]

Agree with Steven. My son is 9 and I started him out with a Daisy Red Rider and empty shotgun shell boxes. Told him about breathing out and squeezing the trigger vs. pulling it. I think most misses are because of that. People get so excited and forget everything. My son may be a better shot than me. He's killed 2 deer (1 rifle & 1 muzzleloader) and 1 turkey and all 3 dropped in their tracks. I also believe if the gun almost scares you when it goes off you squeezed the trigger rather than pulled it.

 

[102]

BSK, in order to become the best, one must set a goal of what they expect from themselves.

If one is to become an expert, then learning how to pull the trigger is only a VERY small part of the overall exercise.

If your goal is to be able to kill deer inside say, 75 yards, on a regular basis, then you must start by learning how to accomplish hitting the bulls eye at twice that distance under relaxed conditions.

Perfection in the target sports (all else being equal) is about 95% mental.

It takes discipline.

102

 

[switchbacker]

heres another question to this thread, what age? my son is going on four. im not trying to brag, but hes growing up in the outdoors, we camp/fish every weekend till late august, and has his picture made with every deer me, my brother in law/ father in law and all my buddies have taken, hes not scared of it. my concern is starting too late or too soon, when did yall start

 

[fairchaser]

There are some very good DVD's out there that teach marksmanship. David Tubbs has several. It's better to learn from these pros than from anyone else IMO. I watch these hunters on TV shows shoot and I notice a lot of mistakes. One I see often is resting the barrel on the stand versus the stock and holding the top of the scope with the front hand. Both of these affect the barrel or muzzle jump and the bullet's flight. Makes little difference on a 100 yd. shot but on a long shot could make a difference. I taught my sons how to find a buck in the scope easy by looking through the scope with the dominant eye while looking around the scope with the weak eye. You can see both at the same time with practice. I guess what Im saying is that the basics should come from a pro, but the fine tuning should come from a mentor. My sons shoot better than me because they learned the right way first and didn't have to be retrained.

 

[stik]

what helped me and my kids more than anything was hundreds of thousands of bb's through a good air rifle.

 

[tn droptine]

One thing that I do with my son is let him get set in a supported position, prone or whatever, and using his sling military style, dry fire with a $0.01 or $0.10 on the end of the barrel. If you can keep the sight on the target, pull the trigger, and not loose the coin consistently then you are headed in the right direction.

Good idea, I'm going to try that

Yup, the dime/washer drills - spent many a day doing that while in Infantry basic training. Helps a lot to teach you not to pull your shot and to regulate your breathing

 

[Hillbilly Hunter]

22 target practice and then squirrel hunting with 22's. It teaches precision shooting as well as woodsmanship, something very few people have anymore.

 

[Bayou Buck]

what helped me and my kids more than anything was hundreds of thousands of bb's through a good air rifle.

I couldnt agree more. I remember always shooting at bottle caps with the iron sights on the air rifle growing up. My friends and I would have contest on who could hit it at different distances.

 

[Andy S.]

what helped me and my kids more than anything was hundreds of thousands of bb's through a good air rifle.

Same here. I owned about every model Crosman produced in the mid to late 80s (.177 and .22 caliber). Fun times in my grandma's yard, unless you were a bird, squirrel or chipmunk. :)

 

[BSK]

The problem is not repetition or hard-kicking guns. They are shooting 22s. However, repetition is not helping. They have some error(s) in their shooting form, but from watching them shoot, I can't decipher what their problems are.

I was lucky in that basic marksmanship ability is somewhat "genetic" in my family. My mother's parents were both trick-shot performers, my mother is an exceptional shot, and about half of the children in the family got the "shooting gene" (whatever that is). I was never taught marksmanship skills because I didn't need them. Being able to hit whatever I pointed a gun at came naturally (to a point, I'm no long-range marksman by any means, but anything within 150 yards is no problem). Because I never had to learn marksmanship, I don't know how to teach it to someone else. In essence, I don't know how to identify shooting mistakes. What's a good resource for learning the symptoms and causes of shooting mistakes?

 

[Bayou Buck]

The problem is not repetition or hard-kicking guns. They are shooting 22s. However, repetition is not helping. They have some error(s) in their shooting form, but from watching them shoot, I can't decipher what their problems are.

I was lucky in that basic marksmanship ability is somewhat "genetic" in my family. My mother's parents were both trick-shot performers, my mother is an exceptional shot, and about half of the children in the family got the "shooting gene" (whatever that is). I was never taught marksmanship skills because I didn't need them. Being able to hit whatever I pointed a gun at came naturally (to a point, I'm no long-range marksman by any means, but anything with 150 yards is no problem). Because I never had to learn marksmanship, I don't know how to teach it to someone else. In essence, I don't know how to identify shooting mistakes.

How old are they? Some kids just take a little longer until they figure it out and like you said, some are just born with it. I gave my wife my .22 mag one day and told her "Look through the scope, put where the lines cross in the scope on the target, make sure there is no black in the scope, keep your eye on the target the entire time and steady squeeze the trigger." It was that easy and now she rarely misses the bullseye. On the other hand I have a nephew who I have been working with like crazy that just cant figure it out, I believe its a comprehension thing. He's still young though and it will click one day.

 

[BSK]

Unfortunately, the worst shots are adults in their 20s. My daughter is shooting pretty well for a 10-year-old. She probably just needs more shooting time. But the adults, WOW are they bad...

 

[Andy S.]

Have you or someone checked to ensure they are using their dominant/master eye while shooting? Just a thought. Another thing to consider is follow through after the shot. I have seen a few people shoot that think the process is over at the thought of squeezing/pulling the trigger (the millisecond right before they shoot). This premature notion results in pulling the head up too fast to see the result of their shot, thus not following through and oftentimes missing the intended target. I have been known to do this from time to time, especially if it has been a while since I last shot. I really get hacked off at myself because this is something so simple, but something I tend to let my guard down on from time to time. As others have stated, this seems to not be a problem when I practice routinely and not go long periods of time without shooting. Some old heads used to tell me to shoot and then count to two before I pick my head up. They were simply reiterating following through.

 

[rukiddin]

Give them the gun empty, but let them think the gun is loaded and ready to fire. Watch them when they pull the trigger. Almost guarantee there eyes shut completely and they flinch....some experienced shooters do this but they have learned to compensate for it. New shooters dont know how to deal with it.

 

[BigSatt]

Give them the gun empty, but let them think the gun is loaded and ready to fire. Watch them when they pull the trigger. Almost guarantee there eyes shut completely and they flinch....some experienced shooters do this but they have learned to compensate for it. New shooters dont know how to deal with it.

Very true.

To add to that, try loading the gun for them a few times and handing it back to them, all the while trying to build confidence in them each shot to breath normal and SQUEEZE. Then, slip in an empty casing. When the gun doesn't fire, they will sit still for a few seconds wondering what just happened, thus giving you the perfect opportunity to coach. At this minute, have them look at their sights and/or scope and see if they are still on target. Then you can address proper breathing, jerking vs squeezing, and follow through as Andy stated.

Also, even if someone started off with .22's and became proficient with them, they sometimes will still form a complex when they get around "LOUD" guns. I'll give an example here. When my oldest daughter was 9 (the age that she could demonstrate proper gun handling and safety to me), we started off by me drawing pictures of what proper site pictures (iron and scope) should look like (leveled/crosshair alignment) on paper. She then became a very good shot with a .22. Later that Summer, she wanted to try the "Big" gun (.243). So, when that time came, I fired off a couple of rounds to assure the scope was on. I then asked if she was ready......and she said NO. I said, "I thought you wanted to do this, so you can deer hunt this year". She said "Uugh, (and with eyes as big as saucers) I've got to go to the bathroom daddy". "Okay", I said. While she was gone, I was scratching my head trying to figure out what was wrong. Then it hit me, when I fired off the 2 rounds, she had been standing off to my side. Even with ear plugs in, the sound is still very loud compared to a .22. When she came back, I didn't mention this. I just told her that I wanted to shoot another round for accuracy's sake......and if she would, please stand directly BEHIND me. She did. After firing the round, I turned around and said "See, it's not nearly as loud standing behind it is it baby?" She smiled and said "No it ain't daddy". I asked her if she was ready....she said YES! Once the first round was fired, there was no turning back. We started going through the same motions as if it was a .22, along with positive re-enforcement after every shot, and all was well very quickly.

I truly think that the louder sound of larger caliber rifles has a negative effect on new shooters (old and young alike). Somehow, they associate the BOOM with dramatically increased recoil.

Sorry about the long post. Thought maybe it might help.

 

[passthrough76]

This is a different analogy, but I approach shooting the same way I do golf since I love to do both. You start off by making sure your grip and stance is right(how you hold and rest the gun). Then you start off by practicing short range shots until you really hone in on a grouping of shots. Then you move on in increments of yardage and hone in on each increment with each club until you are comfortable with your grouping with that club and distance. Before you know it, you are shooting at longer ranges with tighter groupings. Also just like in golf, you need to practice mind clearing or relaxation techniques before your shot in order to decrease the tension in your muscles. The key is to be consistent with every approach to the shot, and then relax before the shot is taken.

 

[infoman jr.]

Dry fire. Have them squeeze the trigger with an empty chamber and fire the gun without the sights moving. Many a shot has been missed by someone anticipating what will happen after the shot instead of concentrating on what happens during the shot.

 

[Tony USMC]

Aiming( sight alignment, sight picture) , trigger control (pressing the trigger to the rear with out disturbing sight alignment sight picture.) breath control ( try to take your shot during your natural respiratory pause).

 

[Football Hunter]

The problem is not repetition or hard-kicking guns. They are shooting 22s. However, repetition is not helping. They have some error(s) in their shooting form, but from watching them shoot, I can't decipher what their problems are.

I was lucky in that basic marksmanship ability is somewhat "genetic" in my family. My mother's parents were both trick-shot performers, my mother is an exceptional shot, and about half of the children in the family got the "shooting gene" (whatever that is). I was never taught marksmanship skills because I didn't need them. Being able to hit whatever I pointed a gun at came naturally (to a point, I'm no long-range marksman by any means, but anything within 150 yards is no problem). Because I never had to learn marksmanship, I don't know how to teach it to someone else. In essence, I don't know how to identify shooting mistakes. What's a good resource for learning the symptoms and causes of shooting mistakes?

The "genes" didnt translate to the bow huh :)

 

[JCDEERMAN]

I was taken squirrel hunting with a .22 . Though, I was not able to shoot for a while, as my dad wanted me to learn patients. He pointed things out to me, what to listen for, what to look for. I think this is a critical part of the process. Once I learned patients, all I wanted to do was impress him. When he finally gave me the opportunity to shoot one, all I wanted to do was impress him. He corrected my form, which I didnt like, but it made me better for the next shot opportunity. Him and my grandfather taught me. I moved from a .22 to a 20 guage. Once they start actually killing things, I think is when they get the full appreciation and wanting to get better. That was my situation

 

[Wobblyshot1]

The problem is not repetition or hard-kicking guns. They are shooting 22s. However, repetition is not helping. They have some error(s) in their shooting form, but from watching them shoot, I can't decipher what their problems are.

I was lucky in that basic marksmanship ability is somewhat "genetic" in my family. My mother's parents were both trick-shot performers, my mother is an exceptional shot, and about half of the children in the family got the "shooting gene" (whatever that is). I was never taught marksmanship skills
because I didn't need them. Being able to hit whatever I pointed a gun at came naturally (to a point, I'm no long-range marksman by any means, but anything within 150 yards is no problem). Because I never had to learn marksmanship, I don't know how to teach it to someone else. In essence, I don't know how to identify shooting mistakes. What's a good resource for learning the symptoms and causes of shooting mistakes?

Hey BSK.....maybe this will help.

http://www.gun-club.net/handbook/doku.php?id=page51