Sumtoy Choke question

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UpperTully

UpperTully

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I ordered one Monday, had it in my mail box this morning. So William is on it for this time of year. I took it out of the package, obviously it goes strait from the machining process to the package. This thing was soaked in oil and had shavings all over it. I thought no big deal and cleaned it up with a brush and patch. I ran a patch through it and noticed how shredded my patch was when I pulled it out. I got to looking and noticed the amount of burrs on the vents is nothing like I've ever seen in a choke. One burr was so bad it actually broke off when I ran the patch through it. There's a burr on the crown as well. Further inspection shows the inconsistencies in the vents. Some are deeper than others, some extend into the last step up. I had better expectations for a $72 product so many people speak highly of. Have any of y'all experienced this before?
 

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UpperTully":1q53atvb said:
Have any of y'all experienced this before?
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Not this exact experience, but had William work on a shotgun trigger for me in 2016 and the end result/product was not good. I know LOTS of people speak highly of him, his work, etc, but my ONE experience left a lot to be desired. My .02
 
Andy S.":2siw571y said:
UpperTully":2siw571y said:
Have any of y'all experienced this before?
Click to expand...
Not this exact experience, but had William work on a shotgun trigger for me in 2016 and the end result/product was not good. I know LOTS of people speak highly of him, his work, etc, but my ONE experience left a lot to be desired. My .02
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I'm not crazy about the quality of this for sure. I sent him a message on FB, he said he would replace it if it doesn't shoot right. Me personally, I'm not fond of shooting these Nitro TSS rounds to see if it shoots right.
 
I wouldn't shoot it at all if that is the quality he sent out. I wanted him to work on a shotgun for me a few years ago. He never would respond to my emails and calls so I went elsewhere. Glad I did.
 
he makes a very good choke but personally Ive never been impressed with his quality of work. from a choke standpoint I can deal with it as long as its not as bad as yours and shoots well but ive seen some really bad quality on gunsmith stuff. As far as that choke it would have been back in the mail tues morning. wasnt some much an issue back when I used his with heavy shot and heavyweights due to the price not being what TSS is these days but even then Im not waisting $10 on ammo to see "if it shoots well"


to note though, I really do like his chokes and in the 20g and benelli barrels I have tested they always shoot very well.
 
Here's a shot showing where the vents meet what I'd call the crown. Those vents on the left are deep, the ones on the right is hardly cut into the choke. This is what concerns me the most. I don't know if that would change my POI/POA.

The more I think about it, I think I'm going to send it back. I paid 72 bucks for a choke, I don't wan't it to look like it was modified by a child with a file.

He might want to invest in to quality control.
 

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Well, just to add, a good friend said he was shooting a New England Firearms single shot last week and the scope base came off when shooting. He asked if I thought I could look at it, as he didn`t want to wait weeks for repair, and so we met and the error was the blind holes were very shallow and very short screws. I drilled deeper and re tapped the 3 holes, but this was a 4 hole base, and the 4th hole had not been tapped. It has been now, and I custom ground to length all 6-48 screws where I could tighten them individually to test for bottoming out. I told him it ain`t coming off again!!
 
UpperTully":mb3pebh4 said:
The more I think about it, I think I'm going to send it back.
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The right thing to do IMO. That last photo is embarrassing, should have never left the shop. If you can get the right constriction you are wanting, it is hard to beat an Indian Creek choke for uniform patterns with TSS. If IC does not offer your constriction, you can special order one in the constriction you want (subject to availability), but it is yours if you do not like the results. You cannot return a special order IC choke, but could resell on TnDeer classifieds, Old Gobbler, etc.
 
I'll give him a chance to make it right. I'm pretty certain he never inspected this choke. I can't imagine any business owner sending something out looking this horrible. If he can't make it look right I'm going with an Indian Creek.

I tried the BlackMaxx .665 because you and BJ spoke good of it. It was pretty horrible for a 2 5/16oz load. My 20ga put up much better numbers than it did with a 1 5/8oz load.
 
UpperTully":40tfnash said:
I tried the BlackMaxx .665 because you and BJ spoke good of it. It was pretty horrible for a 2 5/16oz load.
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2 5/16...... :shock:......you been talking to muddyboots on here. :tu:

Not surprised, would expect a horrible pattern with any .665 constriction choke and 835, hard, non-deforming PELLETS ( 2 5/16 oz of #9s) exiting the barrel. Waaaaaaaay overchoked, especially for TSS. I would recommend something along the .680-.690 constriction with that much TSS exiting the barrel, and possibly .695 or bigger.

FWIW, when I shot Hal's 12G 3" "Econo Load" with 1 oz TSS #9s and 1 oz Lead 7.5s, I used an IC .680 with wad catchers. It printed great from 20 to 50 yards and was devastating on turkeys. If I tote a 12G again, that is the shell I will hunt with.

My .02
 
.665 is what Nitro recommended for that load but not this choke. I guess the saying "all chokes are not created equal" is true. I assume what makes the .665 work is chokes with the wad catchers in it.

Honestly, if I could of found Nitro hevi shot id been shooting them. I doubt I'll use TSS in the 12 after I'm done with this box. There's just no need in it from what I see.
 
That doesn't even look like a second quality. It looks like someone new that didn't know what they were doing made that. I'd wouldn't even think twice about making him swap it. To be honest if he didn't swap it and pay shipping both ways I'd dispute the credit card charge on that thing.
 
I'm amazed that many chokes leave his shop not inspected and approved for delivery. It also makes me think there are a number of hunters out there who do not care and just screw the choke in and go hunt with it.
 
I've had two of his.

One for an A5 I ordered directly from him. It arrived covered in oil, but no shavings or burs or anything. It performed well.

The second was for an SBE2. I bought it used. It didn't shoot worth a fart.

If he continues to send this quality of work out the door word will spread. Let us know how your replacement choke looks.
 
I went and shot that Sumtoy this morning. I ran 3 boxes of heavy dove loads through it, which smoothed it up a little. Shot a LongBeard and Nitro through it. Surprisingly it shot fine and gave good numbers but i'm not impressed with his craftsmanship and machine work.
 

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From what they told me earlier its 1.15oz of 7.5 and 1.15oz of 9. I haven't done the math to get a total pellet count.

It may just be me, but counting them out earlier it seems those 7.5's don't hold as tight as the 9's.
 
ahurst":3fa116hq said:
Mine shot good too. Longbeards, turkey thugs and strut shok all put up acceptable numbers but I got him to replace it anyway. I just didn't like the burr and mine only had one or two but he did smooth out. He offered to send me a new choke and even keep the old one but I went ahead and told him I had other chokes that would fit and to fix the one I had because I liked the way it shot. Had my choke fixed and sent back in about 8 days. I knew it was my choke because I marked it. We are not the only ones complaining about burrs in his chokes but most of the complaints I saw were last year about this time. Havent seen any recent ones until now.
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I wonder if it's increased demand and trying to keep up is hurting quality?

I've seen a couple more chokes that hes made and they actually look good. I have no doubt he doesn't make a jam up choke but it seems some corners are being cut to keep up with demand.

I may wait until after season is over and send it back to him to replace or correct it. I've spent the past month and a half playing the patterning, ordering chokes and ammo game. I'm ready to hunt now.

I was speaking with a buddy earlier who is having troubles getting the right mount for a Trijicon/SX3 20ga. The first mount he sent fit the gun but not the sight, so he sent it back. The second mount fits the sight but not the gun. Communication from Sumtoy is kind of hard to decipher, which doesn't make it better.
 
UpperTully":1r8sg6nk said:
..... its 1.15oz of 7.5 and 1.15oz of 9. I haven't done the math to get a total pellet count.
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18g/cc 7.5s = 230/ounce, so 230*1.15=265

18g/cc 9s = 362/ounce, so 362*1.15=416

Total pellets = 681 pellets headed downrange

For 614 pellets inside the 20" circle, you have 614/681 = 90% accountability.
 
I was beginning to wonder if my .562 was lost in the mail. William sent me an email last Tuesday or Wednesday that it had been shipped. I thought it might be in the box early in the week. It finally showed up today. I've looked pretty close and don't see any problems. The crown is fine and I can't see any burrs. We'll see how it shoots in the coming days.
 
Andy S.":38k1ajjz said:
UpperTully":38k1ajjz said:
..... its 1.15oz of 7.5 and 1.15oz of 9. I haven't done the math to get a total pellet count.
Click to expand...

18g/cc 7.5s = 230/ounce, so 230*1.15=265

18g/cc 9s = 362/ounce, so 362*1.15=416

Total pellets = 681 pellets headed downrange

For 614 pellets inside the 20" circle, you have 614/681 = 90% accountability.
Click to expand...

Dang! I appreciate you figuring that out. I was going to sit down and do it once I got off work tonight.

That's a heck of difference in night and day with that Redhead .665 choke
 
No problem, I enjoy it. In my opinion, if you would considering going to .680 - .690 constriction, especially Indian Creek (they do well with TSS) I feel confident you would see more even pellet distribution inside the 10", and most likely more pellets in between the 10" and 20", resulting in a more even distribution pellet count /coverage from the 10" to 20" ring. I am not one to chase numbers on paper, but I am a big advocate of a more spread out, uniform distribution and forgiving pattern that will benefit you while hunting, while still having more than enough pellets (220-250) inside the 10" at 40 yards.

FWIW, the pioneers off TSS all agree that if you are getting 140 pellets inside a 10" circle at ANY DISTANCE, with enough penetration (factor of muzzle velocity and distance to turkey), you have plenty to kill if you hold it on his head and don't pull off. If you think about this, most guys are waaaaay overkill on 10" numbers unless they routinely hunt in open places and shoot 60-70 yards regularly.
 
After patterning my 12 and 20 with TSS, I would agree that opening it up is better suited for close quarter shots. There's a margin for error with the .555 and .665. I will work on that for next season and stick with what I have now since it's so close to season. Hopefully I will be loading my own by then also.

I believe my next choke choice will be Indian Creek, that's what I have in my 20ga now. There's no comparison to craftsmanship between the two.
 

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