Strange Sight In Problems

[HilhamHawk]

I just got a brand new CVA Apex, and took it out to sight it in today. I started at 25 yards, using 120 grains of loose 777, and 200 grain Hornady SST's in crush rib sabots. It would not sight in, with shots scattered 8-10 inches all over the target. I thought it was the scope, so double checked the mounts, and swapped the scope out for another one, but it was doing the same thing. I then changed to 2 50 grain 777 pellets, and had it sighted in, with the original scope, in 3-4 shots. Any body have any idea why it was so squirrelly with the loose 777? I've had it for a while, so maybe degradation of the powder?

 

[Deer Assassin]

bad powder



watch the same thing happen at the range

had fellow shoot it thru the chrony 700 fps 900 fps 1150 fps 1600 fps 750fps

no wonder why i bet he had moisture in powder

 

[HilhamHawk]

That's what I was thinking. I know there was no moisture in this powder, but I've heard that 777, and Pyrodex, degrade pretty quickly.

 

[Roost 1]

FWIW....the SST bullet your are shooting is .451 or .452 diameter, the black crush rib sabot is designed for a .458 bullet. Harvester makes a red crush rib sabot designed for the smaller diameter bullets you are shooting..
This could effect accuracy to some degree in my opinion, but I'd say bad powder was the culprit... 1yr shelf life on 777 so I always heard. Glad you got it straight.
Find a 45/70 barrel and have it converted to smokeless, you will not regret it.

 

[GMB54]

No, the Black Crushrib is designed for a .451 or .452 bullet. Savage owners used it with a .458 bullet to help with loose bores.

Just check Harvesters website. They sell them with a .451 bullet. Harvester does not even sell a .458 bullet.....yet

http://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/i ... &Itemid=18

 

[GMB54]

HilhamHawk

You say you used a 200gr SST. Do you mean a 40cal 200gr SST in a 50x40 BLUE Crushrib sabot or 45x40 Light Blue CR sabot? What caliber is your Apex? A 50cal or a 45cal? If its a 45cal they are known to have a semi large bore for a 45cal. The 50x40 dark blue crushrib is pretty bad imo. I had lots of failures with them in my 50cals with anything but mild loads.

Hornady does not make any other 200gr SST (except a 338) but they do make a .452 200gr and 225gr FTX which is similar to a SST.

Which one of these are you using?
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.452-200-gr-FTX/

 

[HilhamHawk]

HilhamHawk

You say you used a 200gr SST. Do you mean a 40cal 200gr SST in a 50x40 BLUE Crushrib sabot or 45x40 Light Blue CR sabot? What caliber is your Apex? A 50cal or a 45cal? If its a 45cal they are known to have a semi large bore for a 45cal. The 50x40 dark blue crushrib is pretty bad imo. I had lots of failures with them in my 50cals with anything but mild loads.

Hornady does not make any other 200gr SST (except a 338) but they do make a .452 200gr and 225gr FTX which is similar to a SST.

Which one of these are you using?
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.452-200-gr-FTX/

Bingo, you got it. I was shooting the .40 cal 200 grain SST's in the dark blue crush rib 50/40 sabots. Maybe that's what the problem was, the sabots couldn't handle the hot loads? What kind of failures were you getting?

 

[Roost 1]

I guess I miss-understood. I would think you need a bullet as close to bore diameter as possible, using the thinnest sabot as possible, for optimum performance.
I will admit I don't check their website, I get my info from one of Harvesters test shooters...... Harvester originated in my hometown but has since moved 70 miles north...

 

[GMB54]

HilhamHawk

You say you used a 200gr SST. Do you mean a 40cal 200gr SST in a 50x40 BLUE Crushrib sabot or 45x40 Light Blue CR sabot? What caliber is your Apex? A 50cal or a 45cal? If its a 45cal they are known to have a semi large bore for a 45cal. The 50x40 dark blue crushrib is pretty bad imo. I had lots of failures with them in my 50cals with anything but mild loads.

Hornady does not make any other 200gr SST (except a 338) but they do make a .452 200gr and 225gr FTX which is similar to a SST.

Which one of these are you using?
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.452-200-gr-FTX/

Bingo, you got it. I was shooting the .40 cal 200 grain SST's in the dark blue crush rib 50/40 sabots. Maybe that's what the problem was, the sabots couldn't handle the hot loads? What kind of failures were you getting?

At about 100gr of BH209, i was getting mangled sabots but i was shooting heavier bullets mostly. MMP makes a 50x40 sabot that held up better for me but they will be tight.

It would make sense since a 100gr load of T7 pellets is fairly mild. Its milder than 100gr of loose T7 anyway.

If you really want a lighter bullet that works, try the Barnes 45LC 225gr XPB in the Harvester smooth black sabot for under 300gr bullets. They wont fail and that sabot seems to fit many CVA 50cal bores well. Practice with the Hornady 225gr FTX.

 

[dr]

I've had good results with BH-209, 100 gr. volume, and Barnes 250 gr. TEZ.

 

[tasaman]

Fwiw I shoot the same bullet in Knight. Use 80 gr of Blackhorn I get very respectable groups. Might be you are using too much powder.

 

[1 good shot]

i never had much luck with tripe 7

 

[muddyboots]

too much powder also.

 

[Roost 1]

Fwiw I shoot the same bullet in Knight. Use 80 gr of Blackhorn I get very respectable groups. Might be you are using too much powder.

Are you measuring by weight or volume?

 

[MUP]

I'm loading 60 gr wt BH209 behind 260 gr lead conical with sabot. Doing ok I reckon...should I be concerned with too little velocity? This is the load I calculated that is close to the 90 gr/volume of Pyro that I used to use btw.

 

[HilhamHawk]

I've heard so much about the Blackhorn, that I broke down and bought some. Once the breechplug I sprung for ($43) gets here, I'll give it a try. I have the 200 grainers, and some 250 grain Shockwaves. According to the Blackhorn data sheet, I should be able to push these at about 2150 fps, which is only about 50 fps behind the lighter 200's, with 120 grains by volume, or 84 grains weighed, of BH209. Anybody ever tried this load?

 

[Roost 1]

Didn't have any luck with 120gr by volume, backed off to 110grs much better..

 

[MUP]

I'm loading 60 gr wt BH209 behind 260 gr lead conical with sabot. Doing ok I reckon...should I be concerned with too little velocity? This is the load I calculated that is close to the 90 gr/volume of Pyro that I used to use btw.

Looks like I'm on the bottom of the chart from the BH site. 56 gr is the lowest shown for weighed loads. Still, at over 1700 fps with a 260 gr boolit, should be good. ;)

 

[dr]

I'm loading 60 gr wt BH209 behind 260 gr lead conical with sabot. Doing ok I reckon...should I be concerned with too little velocity? This is the load I calculated that is close to the 90 gr/volume of Pyro that I used to use btw.

Mup, I'm using 100gr. volume BH209, and BArnes 250 gr. T-EZ. My Knight is hitting 1" high at 50 yds. and the same at 100 yds. It shoots nearly as flat as a high powered rifle. I suggest you try 100 gr. volume.

 

[Grill-n-man]

Bad powder possible. Big difference in loose verses pellets. Pellets have small empty pockets in them as they are not as tightly compressed as most think. Also they are not full bore sized so they leave empty pockets behind bullets where as loose is able to spread to full bore and compact alot tighter allowing tighter compaction behind bullet when its seated allowing for an increase in chamber pressure. This is one cause of the difference of your groups but it seems the biggest issue was too much powder. Just remember that triple 7 is hotter than pyrodex and blackhorn is hotter than both. Keep that in mind especially if using loose powder and adjust amount so as not to over pressure the gun. Seen just a 5 grain by volume change change a gun from looking like a scatter gun to a tack driver.

 

[MUP]

I'm loading 60 gr wt BH209 behind 260 gr lead conical with sabot. Doing ok I reckon...should I be concerned with too little velocity? This is the load I calculated that is close to the 90 gr/volume of Pyro that I used to use btw.

Mup, I'm using 100gr. volume BH209, and BArnes 250 gr. T-EZ. My Knight is hitting 1" high at 50 yds. and the same at 100 yds. It shoots nearly as flat as a high powered rifle. I suggest you try 100 gr. volume.

Weighing the charge, 100 grains volume equates to 70 gr weighed, so I'm only 10 gr below a 100 gr volume load. And no chance of ever getting a shot over 100 yds for me at my place either. ;)

 

[HilhamHawk]

I feel much better, now. After I finally got my new BH breech plug, I took my Apex out this morning to sight it in. I tried it with 77 grains by weight (110 grains volume), with some T/C 250 grain Shock Waves. It loved that load, and was putting them in one hole at 25 yards, so I do believe it's the load I'll stick with.