Smokeless Smokeless Blowup

[451LRML]

Anyone know any specific load details as to the recent Smokeless ML blowup near Chattanooga?
Luckily, no one seriously injured as shrapnel went in all directions including thru the roof.
[attachment=1]2F9BDF20-F5CC-422E-ADBE-530D8157222C.jpeg[/attachment]
[attachment=0]0545632B-9741-4B71-89AE-66E26B8920A6.jpeg[/attachment]

 

[451LRML]

 

[ADR]

Wow. Glad no one was seriously injured or worse. Double load?

 

[jlanecr500]

Sure do. It was a double load. Powder bullet, powder bullet. Did not mark ramrod or check to see if it was loaded before loading again. New gun. Owner let his son pull the trigger. As with anything, there are rules that must be followed and weren't. I hate that for them and I'm very happy that the lad was not injured.

 

[451LRML]

Sure do. It was a double load. Powder bullet, powder bullet. Did not mark ramrod or check to see if it was loaded before loading again. New gun. Owner let his son pull the trigger. As with anything, there are rules that must be followed and weren't. I hate that for them and I'm very happy that the lad was not injured.

That is Intersting as I will disagree about the double load.
The mishap wasn't reported to the club. They found out about the accident over a month later, then contacted the people involved - double load was never mentioned. The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association found out about it before the club, who contacted them and me to inquire.
It seemed (with limited photos) the barrel separated in 1/2 lengthwise, action seemed to come apart at the breech - fragments thru the roof.
Not reporting and no mention of double load when contacted by club about the circumstances, makes one question what really occurred.

 

[jlanecr500]

Sure do. It was a double load. Powder bullet, powder bullet. Did not mark ramrod or check to see if it was loaded before loading again. New gun. Owner let his son pull the trigger. As with anything, there are rules that must be followed and weren't. I hate that for them and I'm very happy that the lad was not injured.

That is Intersting as I will disagree about the double load.
The mishap wasn't reported to the club. They found out about the accident over a month later, then contacted the people involved - double load was never mentioned. The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association found out about it before the club, who contacted them and me to inquire.
It seemed (with limited photos) the barrel separated in 1/2 lengthwise, action seemed to come apart at the breech - fragments thru the roof.
Not reporting and no mention of double load when contacted by club about the circumstances, makes one question what really occurred.

Of course, you have your opinion and I won't bow down to a low level to argue with you about it. Why did you ask if you didn't want to know the TRUTH ? Most smokeless newbies would likely not report a double load for fear of being excluded from the range. As usual, a non smokeless ML shooter trying to discredit the builder in some form or fashion. I knew about this some time back. The owner even admitted to the builder that he had mistakenly loaded the gun again after loading it previously. Again, I thank the good lord that the son was not injured. Hopefully both father and son learned from this mishap.

I own pressure trace equipment and consider top end loads in the most capable guns to be less than 70,000 psi. I have personally traced a load that was 118,000 psi with no damage to a gun with a 1.285" shank. To my knowledge, the blown up gun had a 1.250" shank for 5".
Chamber pressure would have to exceed 150,000 psi +++ and most likely over 175,000 psi ++ in order to have a blow up like that. A double charge with single bullet would likely not exceed those parameters.

The gun was double loaded. Powder Bullet Powder Bullet. The used of a marked ramrod would have prevented this catastrophic event.
Thank you Lord :pray:

 

[451LRML]

Possibilities might have included:
1) short started into muzzle at point of forward separation.
2) no ignition of powder, primer pop only and moved bullet off the powder.
3) overcharging - too much powder
4) S.E.E; no bullet at all - same scenario as TN last accident in 2015 by G. Hoover
5) double load
6) bullet not seated fully on powder
7) Duplexing
8) Really don't know what happened.
There may be other scenarios??

One thing is for sure - no one took the time to state 'this is what can happen when you double-load your ML - always mark your ramrod. Please do so and always think safety' and share this info.

 

[Roost 1]

One thing is for sure - no one took the time to state 'this is what can happen when you double-load your SML - always mark your ramrod. Please do so and always think safety' and share this info.

Not sure why you had to add "SML" in your comment as any MZL can be double-loaded. Most likely if this had been a traditional type mzl the results could of possibly been much worse. SML barrels are rated for much higher pressures than standard black powder mzl. Most all conversions were centerfires in the beginning and rated for much higher pressures.

Not sure if your intent is to dis-credit SML or not, however if it is could you explain why???

 

[451LRML]

Roost1 - edited
You may delete your post.

 

[jlanecr500]

One thing is for sure - no one took the time to state 'this is what can happen when you double-load your SML - always mark your ramrod. Please do so and always think safety' and share this info.

Not sure why you had to add "SML" in your comment as any MZL can be double-loaded. Most likely if this had been a traditional type mzl the results could of possibly been much worse. SML barrels are rated for much higher pressures than standard black powder mzl. Most all conversions were centerfires in the beginning and rated for much higher pressures.

Not sure if your intent is to dis-credit SML or not, however if it is could you explain why???

We all know the intent. He asked questions that he supposedly already had answers for.

 

[Wobblyshot1]

I think 451LRML's intention was not to bash smokeless muzzle loaders but more for educational and safety purposes. Sure, you can make mistakes in loading traditional ml's as well, but no way a similar loading error using real blacking powder is going to cause that kind of damage(if you know of any examples like this using real black powder please let me know). If one wants to use a smokeless ml, I have no problem with it. I'm pretty sure that they will function as intended 100% of the time provided all precautions are taken in in gun design, care and loading. However, when the human aspect is added in mistakes become a real possibility and as 451 said be safe and use utmost caution in loading.
I'm thankful that no one was injured.

 

[GMB54]

Any of them can blow if not loaded correctly. Hard to be sure but this one looks like a TC Omega (or a BPI/CVA copy called a Win Apex or Kodiak) and Shockey's Gold powder aka APP.

[youtube]GCe2B2pN3pQ[/youtube]

 

[Wobblyshot1]

Any of them can blow if not loaded correctly. Hard to be sure but this one looks like a TC Omega (or a BPI/CVA copy called a Win Apex or Kodiak) and Shockey's Gold powder aka APP.

[youtube]GCe2B2pN3pQ[/youtube]

Details on how that happened??

 

[451LRML]

This is all I know about the load, which was the original question.

Specific question related to the possible cause by the club - this is the truth.
The NMLRA attempts to track this type data, that's why I was asked to inquire.

 

[GMB54]

Any of them can blow if not loaded correctly. Hard to be sure but this one looks like a TC Omega (or a BPI/CVA copy called a Win Apex or Kodiak) and Shockey's Gold powder aka APP.

[youtube]GCe2B2pN3pQ[/youtube]

Details on how that happened??

The original video that was posted stated a double load. Supposedly by one of the people that was there when it happened. After some model checking/comparing it appears it was Winchester Apex made by BPI. Virtually the same rifle as a CVA Kodiak Pro. Very difficult to confirm though. All 3 look very much alike and the video is rather poor.

 

[jlanecr500]

The standard load is 78gr IMR4198 and a 275gr bullet. My understanding is that it was an aftermarket custom action. If you look closely at the barrel, 2 copper colored burnish Mark's can be seen about 2 inches and 3.5 inches from the breech. This is where the 2 bullets were at ignition. They always rupture just behind the projectile. Most do not split the action to the point it fractures in half but this is the first custom action I've seen double loaded.

We have discussed destructive testing in the past but it cost money. If anyone wants to do some destructive testing, I am willing to supply the single use strain gage which will cost me $40 each plus a $25 cable that will likely be destroyed too. My pressure test equipment will record chamber pressure via a PC. The expensive part is the barrel and action. As I stated before, I have traced to 118kpsi without a failure.

Black powder and substitutes require less than 1000 psi to maintain semi explosive burn after ignited. Some require no pressure at all. This is why the bullet must be fully seated against the powder or damage could occur due to expanding gasses slamming into a bullet some distance down the barrel.

Smokeless powder is not the same, in that it must have several thousand psi to maintain semi explosive ignition. The initial pressure is supplied by the primer but with the bullet a distance off the powder, no pressure is captured. I actually can tune my SML load by seating the bullet off the powder which lowers chamber pressure. I use a lock collar on the ramrod and shoot groups at increments of .025" off the powder. Once I get to .100" off the powder, I increase my charge 1 gr and start over so as to keep my fill percentage high above 95%.
A barrel obstruction can cause blow up but with the smokeless powder used in this blow up, a bullet on the powder would have to be there too. IMR4198 or any smokeless powder in its burn rate range or slower will not detonate with the bullet very far off the powder. Powders in this range require a constant 5000 psi to continue to burn at a semi explosive rate. This cannot be obtained without the bullet at least close to the powder. There would have to be a second bullet in the barrel as an obstruction. Think about metallic cartridges. Most are not 100% case filled. I like at least a 95% case fill but some are down around 90. Just the other day, a friend had a hang fire in his 450 bushmaster Ruger American. I ran the load in Quick Load and found it was only an 81% case fill. When he aimed down, the powder was .200" or more off the primer. We seated the bullets .100" deeper and used an over powder wad for positive ignition.

Barrel damage can occur even in cartridge guns by using a slow powder with a very light for caliber bullet. What happens is the charge goes off and the light bullet outruns the pressure wave. Then the bullet begins to slow down only to have the pressure wave catch up. One fellow devised a load that would blow the last 3 inches of muzzle off his rifle.

In SML's, a different phenomena can happen. A ml has much less bullet to bore friction than a rifle because the bullet does not get engraved by the rifling as it exits the barrel. This allows the bullet to outrun the pressure wave. I have seen secondary pressure spikes near the end of the barrel that are equal to or slightly higher than the primary chamber pressure. Long ml barrels with large doses of slow burning powder are where I have recorded this. Such as 40cal charges in excess of 110gr of RL16 with a 275gr or 300gr bullet. It shoots tiny groups but the pressure trace is scary.

I hate that it happened to the fellow but as I understand, he has not given up.

This is why I don't build guns for others. Occasionally I will sell one of mine and when I do, I stress over and over and over to use a marked ramrod. Typically, I make a collapsible ramrod specifically for that particular gun. It is such that when inserted unloaded, the entire ramrod goes into the barrel with only the handle sticking out. The ramrod is also marked so the mark is visible at the muzzle when the gun is loaded.

 

[Wobblyshot1]

For what it's worth this is an update on this "accident" at this particular range.From a member of the club...he told me that a new rule has been put in place which forbids the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloaders.

 

[GMB54]

Well to be fair have them include the Rem700 UML or any load exceeding Hodgdons max 100gr loads. Otherwise this can happen. :roll:
https://myfox8.com/2017/09/20/man-injur ... -practice/

 

[Roost 1]

A guy local to my area just lost his hand. Let someone else load his gun, 5 pellets and then a bullet.
Black powder, not smokeless.

 

[GMB54]

Pellets can be really dangerous if not loaded correctly and the crud ring from Triple7 can prevent a bullet from seating all the way. A 3 pellet load with a 300gr bullet is making about the same peak pressure as approved Savage load data. Guys are shooting this kind of stuff in barrels that probably haven't even been proofed to 40kpsi.

 

[451LRML]

A guy local to my area just lost his hand. Let someone else load his gun, 5 pellets and then a bullet.
Black powder, not smokeless.

That's a shame.
Any idea of the state this occurred?
Or, type of ML?

 

[Roost 1]

It was a CVA and it occurred in western KY.

 

['borohunter]

Regardless of how occurred, a great reminder of following the basics of proper cleaning and loading. We are basically using a "mini cannon".

 

[Tiny]

Not wanting to start anything..However Have to ask..

Any data in Barrel Material.. Ie Stainless vs Regukar steel on these..??

Seems to me bout every blow I have seen invokes a Stainless Model..Even in centerfires..Only mentioning as I do know of Tika Sako n I want to say Browning all had got bad batches of stainless steel n recalled guns..I dont know of any ML being recalled that were stainless models.

Either Way I sure wish my Savage n Winchester Apex that were stolen would show be found. %$#@÷× Thieves..

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[Dully]

5 pellets is a lot of bang

 

[EMTfirefighterRN]

Ouch!


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