Sabot?

[TRIGGER]

School me on sabots. You may have read my other post about my new(to me) smokeless shooting crazy. I changed scopes and had the same results. I was using a 300 grain knight hollow point with an orange sabot. The orange sabots went down the barrel fairly easy. I took the black sabots off of some 250 grain Barnes hollow points. These bullets are both the same besides the grain, just marketed different.
The black sabots went down with quite a bit of resistance but the gun shot a lot more consistent with the black sabots.
Anyone have any suggestions for a good sabot to try? Could the sabot itself make me miss a 16" target at 100 yards?

 

[backyardtndeer]

Could the sabot itself make me miss a 16" target at 100 yards?

Yes it could.

I used to use tc 240 grain xtp mags. They performed great for me in my accura v2, in my black diamond, and in the accura mr I bought my wife. Unfortunately tc quit selling them, or at least I have been unable to find them as they were. I since went to Hornady American whitetail(240 grain interlock) for my wife's mr and am using Hornady 240 grain xtp mags in my accura. Those all use black sabots iirc. In cwd zone, been a few years since we have shot them.

 

[Carlos Viagra]

I'm not sure if they'd cause that or not.

I've always used the 240 grain xtp's as well. They're 45 caliber, and the sabot makes up the difference into 50cal.

 

[GMB54]

Im pretty sure the Barnes black sabot with the 250gr Expanders is a MMP HPH-12. The Knight sabot is dyed orange just for Knight. If its a 4 petal its probably a HPH-24 and if its a 3 petal its a 3Petal-EZ. All made by MMP.

MMP does make and sell a orange sabot too but its for 458 bullets, not .451-.452 bullets. Its close to a HPH-12 in loaded OD.

 

[TRIGGER]

Im pretty sure the Barnes black sabot with the 250gr Expanders is a MMP HPH-12. The Knight sabot is dyed orange just for Knight. If its a 4 petal its probably a HPH-24 and if its a 3 petal its a 3Petal-EZ. All made by MMP.

MMP does make and sell a orange sabot too but its for 458 bullets, not .451-.452 bullets. Its close to a HPH-12 in loaded OD.

They are both 4 petal. The both look exactly the same but load totally different.

 

[double browtine]

If you can find some Harvester brand sabots, they will probably be a good fit. They improved my groups at 100 yards on a regular muzzy shooting 777 pellets.

 

[Spurhunter]

I couldn't get Barnes Expanders down my barrel with the factory sabots. I went to Harvester Crushed Rib sabots and never looked back. Easy loading and great accuracy.

 

[knightrider]

Harvester muzzleloading.com best sabots ive found

 

[WestTn Huntin man]

While trying different sabots with different resistance going into the barrel it can be difficult to have a consistent loading pressure. That bullet that goes in easy and slams home can have a much different loading pressure than one that one that takes a harder push. It's very easy to be off when trying different sabots. 2 identical guns can might shoot the same bullet/sabot differently. Find the one that you can load and shoot consistent groups and go from there .

 

[TRIGGER]

While trying different sabots with different resistance going into the barrel it can be difficult to have a consistent loading pressure. That bullet that goes in easy and slams home can have a much different loading pressure than one that one that takes a harder push. It's very easy to be off when trying different sabots. 2 identical guns can might shoot the same bullet/sabot differently. Find the one that you can load and shoot consistent groups and go from there .

With the orange sabots that come with the night bullets I get fliers that don't even hit the target so those are out lol.

 

[jlanecr500]

Smokeless and non-smokeless are 2 different animals. Combining the 2 forums invites confusion and misinformation. At some point, I look for someone to get hurt.

The savage 50cal bores are better fitted to 45-70 sized bullets which measure .458". Many of the readily available ml bullets are .450", .451", and .452". The larger 45-70 300gr to 325gr bullet combined with a Harvester crushrib or MMP orange sabot (whichever fit best) over 63gr of Reloder 7 or IMR/H4198 is a winning load. I've not found a Savage that didn't like it. I can mail you some bullets but it has been so long since I owned a 50 cal that I don't have any sabots.

https://mmpsabots.com/store/orange-hph-sabot50-pcs/

 

[GMB54]

HPH-12 sabot is around .506-.507 loaded OD
HPB-24 sabot is around .503-.504 loaded OD

Those numbers are with .451-.452 bullets. Barnes 45s tend to run slightly smaller than that. Depends on which Barnes. Tight is Right in a Savage MLII with smokeless. Their bores also tend to be a little on the large side.

MMP Orange 50x458 with pretty much any bullet for 45-70 typical loads is a good bet. Hotter loads you may like the BlackCrushrib with the 458s. My old MLII did great with a MMP Orange and 63gr of Reloder7 or 58gr of N120. Both are close in speed but Reloder7 is a little easier on sabots. Its also quite a bit dirtier than N120.

 

[TRIGGER]

Smokeless and non-smokeless are 2 different animals. Combining the 2 forums invites confusion and misinformation. At some point, I look for someone to get hurt.

The savage 50cal bores are better fitted to 45-70 sized bullets which measure .458". Many of the readily available ml bullets are .450", .451", and .452". The larger 45-70 300gr to 325gr bullet combined with a Harvester crushrib or MMP orange sabot (whichever fit best) over 63gr of Reloder 7 or IMR/H4198 is a winning load. I've not found a Savage that didn't like it. I can mail you some bullets but it has been so long since I owned a 50 cal that I don't have any sabots.

https://mmpsabots.com/store/orange-hph-sabot50-pcs/

These bullets measure .451. I have used the 250 grain Barnes mz expanders in my previous black powder ML with good results. The guy I purchased the gun from says it shoots best with 44 grains of accurate 5744 behind a 300 grain bullet so i figured that's where I need to start. I went on the hunt for 300 grain Barnes expander MZ's with no luck when someone here put me on the knight bullets made by Barnes and I could find them in 300 grain. I have 100 of them. The sabots on these are orange and look identical to the black ones that come with the Barnes 250 grain but don't load anything like one another. Best I can tell they are mmp sabots??? If I can't get this thing to shoot like I want it to where do you think I should start? The bullets,powder,sabots or just throw it all out the window and start with a whole different set up?

 

[TRIGGER]

Also realistically what kind of group should I expect to get out of it without spending a boat load to find the exact right components?

 

[jlanecr500]

You already have 5144 powder that will work at 44gr. With how difficult finding components can be, I'd give it a try. I had issues with that powder about 10 years ago and once I found the Reloder 7 load, I never looked back.
Order some of the MMP orange high pressure sabots I linked to in my last post. PM me your address and I'll get some bullets in the mail. The fit needs to be pretty snug. Smokeless powder has to have a maintained pressure (1000psi and up depending on powder) on it after ignition to keep burning. A loose fitting load will not attain that pressure. You might want to drill a hole about 1/2" deep in a golf ball to put on the end of the ramrod so as not to bruise your palm when loading. I'll return pm my phone # so we can get this going for this season.

 

[GMB54]

Here is how you tell the difference in HPH-12 and HPH-24. Ignore the color. The 12 has a etched looking number. The 24 has a stamped looking number. Im almost 100% certain the Barnes Expander MZ sabots are HPH-12.

12 on left and 24 on right. Color and number dont meen a thing. Etched or stamped is what matters.

 

[Oked]

Smokeless and non-smokeless are 2 different animals. Combining the 2 forums invites confusion and misinformation. At some point, I look for someone to get hurt.

The savage 50cal bores are better fitted to 45-70 sized bullets which measure .458". Many of the readily available ml bullets are .450", .451", and .452". The larger 45-70 300gr to 325gr bullet combined with a Harvester crushrib or MMP orange sabot (whichever fit best) over 63gr of Reloder 7 or IMR/H4198 is a winning load. I've not found a Savage that didn't like it. I can mail you some bullets but it has been so long since I owned a 50 cal that I don't have any sabots.

https://mmpsabots.com/store/orange-hph-sabot50-pcs/

I shoot a 325 grain ftx with a harvester bcr sabot and 63 grains of reloader 7 in 2 different smokeless guns and they both shoot under an inch. So true smokeless and a regular muzzleloader are completely different!!!

 

[TRIGGER]

Here is how you tell the difference in HPH-12 and HPH-24. Ignore the color. The 12 has a etched looking number. The 24 has a stamped looking number. Im almost 100% certain the Barnes Expander MZ sabots are HPH-12.

12 on left and 24 on right. Color and number dont meen a thing. Etched or stamped is what matters.

These are the two I have been referencing

 

[41Magnum]

If you can find some Harvester brand sabots, they will probably be a good fit. They improved my groups at 100 yards on a regular muzzy shooting 777 pellets.

I use Harvester sabots too. The most accurate sabot in my muzzleloader by far.

 

[GMB54]

These are the two I have been referencing

Its just like i said. The orange Knight sabot is a HPH-24 and the black sabot looks like a HPH-12. Hard to tell but the number looks like it was etched in the mold.

 

[Wobblyshot1]

Just to make sure everyone has the correct pronunciation...

 

[Grill-n-man]

The orange sabots from Knight are called easy glide sabots and come from Knight with their 250gr bloodline bullets only. Their other saboted bullets come with high pressure sabots and color depends on bullet diameter. You can get the orange easy glides sabots only but they are not for high pressure loads. Knight, hornady, Harvester, etc have green and black high pressure sabots for 45 cal and 44 cal bullets. Harvester actually makes a high pressure sabot, can't remember color but says right on packaging, for smokeless muzzleloaders. You are not going to get the pressure build with the easy glide sabots from Knight. They work great with pyrodex to blackthorn but are not intended for smokeless guns unless it's a tight bore

 

[GMB54]

Their other saboted bullets come with high pressure sabots and color depends on bullet diameter. You can get the orange easy glides sabots only but they are not for high pressure loads

That is 100% false. Its a MMP HPH-24 sabot. Same polymer used and style as the HPH-12. Its just a smaller loaded OD. Ive shot quite a few of them in my Ultra Light Arms model 20 50cal with N110, 4759 and N120. Never blew a single one. My Douglas barrel though is not loose like many MLIIs.

Barnes uses the exact same sabot with the TEZ bullet line. Its just dyed blue. Knights RED sabot is just a MMP Orange dyed red. Shot a bunch of those in my old MLII also. I actually talked to Del many many times about this kind of stuff. He sent me prototypes to test and 1000s of sabots for my efforts.

https://mmpsabots.com/store/hph-sabot-series/

 

[Grill-n-man]

I apologize for the inaccurate information. Was simply giving advise based upon standard/mass production barrels for the common brands of muzzleloader rifles from talks with Knight builders and 2 pro shooters who have taken multiple 1000yd matches at NMLRA events. And said information was simply general advise for what one would consider off the shelf muzzleloader rifles. I didn't realize the subject was custom built guns who's bores are generally tighter than off the shelf, so tight that one can knurl a bullet and achieve a gas seal. So allow me to rephrase my comments.
The orange easy glide sabots are not recommended for barrels that may be slightly over bored or used with a bullet who's OD will not allow the sabot to properly engage the rifling upon firing. Depending on bore they may cause gases from the powder igniting to escape around the sabot to cause issues with consistent velocity and accuracy. They are intended to ease the loading of sabot and bullet combo in tighter bores and/or fouled dirty barrel with certain bullets, such as the Lehigh Defense made 250gr Bloodline Bullet. In this case one would need to go with either a sabot of larger OD. If the issue is with a custom built gun one may have to use a micrometer to determine the true ID of the barrel (bore) so as to find a sabot with the correct OD to provide the needed gas seal for optimal performance. Also one may need to check manufacture recommendations that the sabot, although of proper fit/size, can maintain its integrity with the higher pressure and burn rate of a particular powder especially smokeless of which maybe outside the intended use of a certain sabot which may result in improper performance or create a safety issue. Although the orange sabots may work well in many other muzzleloader barrels it may not be the correct one for this particular barrel. There are other sabots whose color varies based upon the particular manufacture's intent that may be better suited/designed.
Again I apologize for providing a statement with absolutely no truth to it as it was not my intention.