Ridge top plots

[richmanbarbeque]

Here is two ridge top plots that have taken a few years to get going. This year they are showing better results and have seen deer in both. hopefully they will be even better next year.

What have you done to get good ridge top plots?

 

[eyeseeker]

Mine look very similar to yours. Every year i spray gly in the summer to kill down expansion area and i cut out trees and brush after season ends. I have cut and removed ( for firewood) all of the non oak trees i can adjacent to the plots to get them more sun and reduce the leaf fall onto them. I have tried liming them but spreading lime from the back of a trailer with a shovel....not sure how effective i have been.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Lime, organic matter buildup, very very limited disking, proper crop rotations, hand rock removal, high biomass summer crops. Thats a few I can think of.

 

[Quailman]

What Steven said. Try to stay away from annual tillage. You've got to give the soil time to build up an organic layer. It will take a while on those ridgetop plots.

 

[richmanbarbeque]

What Steven said. Try to stay away from annual tillage. You've got to give the soil time to build up an organic layer. It will take a while on those ridgetop plots.

Especially when you have rocks for soil.

 

[catman529]

I was just gonna say eyeseeker's plots look a lot like yours, even the trees look the same. they are some nice looking plots, turkeys love em too

 

[eyeseeker]

And i do basically the above except i do disc every year for planting. Hand picking rocks is important...but i dont do summer plantings....deer just eat it before it has a chance so i leave it to natural weeds and forbs.

 

[BSK]

Much depends on the soil conditions of your particular ridge-tops. But in loamy-clay with a lot of chert, I have to strongly disagree with those who say to limit tillage. Absolutely the very best thing we have ever done for our ridge-top plots is to increase their ability to hold moisture through chisel-plowing as deep as possible, and then removing as much rock as you can. Without the tillage, those soils simply won't absorb or hold moisture. Biomass build-up is also critical to holding moisture.

 

[richmanbarbeque]

Thanks everyone. I think this is a good topic for most of us with rocks for soil. I had Justin run a chisel plow thru it the past couple years and hopefully it's helped
(I think it's starting too). I have winter wheat and clover in there and in march or so I will till the standing wheat in and let the green matter mix with with the dirt.

 

[Football Hunter]

Be lucky,and have good dirt like me :)

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

Plant them in Crimson and Arrow-leaf clove. Mow the around July 10th and spray them gly. Lightly disk before Aug 1. to get last years seed to germinate and you will be surprised how much it builds the soil in five years.

 

[eyeseeker]

Is it better to til in the wheat while it is green or do you get the same effect from just tilling in the straw? I usually plant it in conjunction with crimson clover and have had great success with dragging the wheat and clover down and allowing the crimson to resprout...it then usually last the remainder of the summer and provides a forage the deer cannot decimate.

 

[Quailman]

But in loamy-clay with a lot of chert, I have to strongly disagree with those who say to limit tillage. Absolutely the very best thing we have ever done for our ridge-top plots is to increase their ability to hold moisture through chisel-plowing as deep as possible, and then removing as much rock as you can. Without the tillage, those soils simply won't absorb or hold moisture. Biomass build-up is also critical to holding moisture.

BSK,

Tillage may help initially (in your situation) with breaking up soil compaction and improving water infiltration, but over time, tillage on a continual basis will only decrease soil health. You will actually degrade organic matter, disrupt biological activity, and decrease water infiltration. It has been proven time and time again. We even have a mobile rainfall simulator that we use to prove this point. We can look at water infiltation for various cropping systems (conventional, no-till, minimum till, permanent grass (both introduced and natives), etc. You would be amazed at the results over a short period of time. The conventional tillage scenario has the poorest water infiltration of any system hands down. Our test results showed that the majority of water in conventional cropping systems merely runs off the surface.

 

[BSK]

You may very well be right over time Quailman. However, after 4 years of annual fall chisel-plowing, our soils just keep getting better and better, retaining more moisture than they ever have. But there may be a "turning point" where continued tillage causes problems.

Before we started the chisel-plowing, a hard rain wouldn't soak more than an inch into the soil. Now we see good soil moisture 4-6 inches deep after even a moderate rain. But again, there may be a turning point where the tillage causes problems. That will be something we will have to watch closely.

What would be the symptoms of over tillage?

 

[eyeseeker]

Wouldnt water infiltration also be affected by hardpan underneath or lack thereof? Chisel plowing should reduce the formation of hardpan under the soil that you can get from always discing to the same depth as the chisel will continually seek to go deeper and it rips the soil instead of cutting it right? I have been experiencing the same results as BSK as far as soil improvement year after year and I know that it has alot to do with tilage. One big plot that i am continually expanding shows dramatic differences in growth based on the amount it has been turned over. The original section is growing gangbusters and the middle(turned first time 2years ago) is considerably less vigorous with this years cleared section struggling altogether. All were planted same rate same time same amount of fert same amount of sun etc. the only thing it could possible be other than tillage is N. i know that tilling a new plot will move alot of organic material into the soil which can tie up N as it breaks down, but as BSK said the moisture content of the soil is different also. I had to wait to till the plot from when i had originally planned because I would have just been making mud clumps that would not have broken apart and would have been creating hardpan underneath.....the new section was turning over beautiful and fluffy because it wasnt as moist to depth.

 

[Quailman]

What would be the symptoms of over tillage?

BSK, I worked all day today with my soil scientist, and we had a chance to discuss this topic. I mentioned to him the soil types you are working with, and of course, he is familiar with your area. Basically he told me that the potential problems I mentioned were correct in regards to continual tillage.

Also, as far as additional issues over time, he said annual tillage will bring additional rocks towards the upper part of the soil profile, which inhibits water infiltration. He also mentioned that additional problems you may encounter would include a tillage pan, soil erosion, weathering, excessive leaching of nutrients, and of course decreased organic matter that is extremely critical for retaining moisture.

One of the biggest problems encountered during the summer is moisture retention in conventional tillage situations. We ran some tests this past summer with temperature probes on tilled vs. no-till soils. During the hotter parts of the summer when air temps exceeded 95 degrees, actual soil temps on tilled ground exceeded 110 degrees due to a lack of residue. As a comparison, a hay field adjacent to the site had a soil temp of 78 degrees. What's important to know is that once soil temps exceed 90 degrees, about 90%+ of moisture is lost due to evaporation. So even though you may think you are getting adequate rainfall, it leaves the system very quickly and is not useable by plants.

I know the soil types you are working with because I've seen them a thousand times, so I would just caution you on your current cropping system. I would seriously think about at least going to a longer rotation before any type of tillage is initiated. Just something to think about.

 

[richmanbarbeque]

This has turned into a very informative thread.

 

[Bayou Buck]

I remember some of the plots on the Kentucky Proving Grounds that Grant Woods is managing was chiseled and he mentioned that if you are in a hard clay area or have a solid hardpan in your plots, he recommends you intiailly break the hardpan and then only no-till. This will allow greater moisture retention due to less compaction and more organic matter. They used a heavy chisel device pulled by a dozer to break the soil over there.

 

[BSK]

This has turned into a very informative thread.

ABSOLUTELY!

Quailman,

Any further information on this topic would be HIGHLY appreciated.

Currently, we do not plant any summer crops, simply because they cannot survive the hot, dry summers. We current chisel in late fall and broadcast-seed cereal grains (wheat) and annual clovers (crimson and arrowleaf) that will last until early July. Plots are left fallow through the remainder of the summer.

How would we plant in fall without breaking ground? A grain drill will not penetrate the ground's surface.

 

[Andy S.]

This has turned into a very informative thread.

x2

 

[Quailman]

How would we plant in fall without breaking ground? A grain drill will not penetrate the ground's surface.

Glad you asked!! It just so happens that I have been experimenting over the last month with a couple of scenarios for planting fall plots without tillage and without no-till planters.

It will take me a few days to get some pics and explain what I did, but so far the results have been very promising.

 

[BSK]

Sounds fascinating Quailman. Can't wait to hear more about it.

For years we just broadcast seed right onto unbroken ground. It worked--sort of. The smaller the seed, the better the germination (such as clover or brassicas), but anything with a seed larger than a cereal grain experienced very low germination rates.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

I have a dandy plot this year that was done by letting the weeds get up to about 3-4 feet high and thick, broadcasting my seed into the living vegetation(without any mowing), then applying a high volume of 2 qt/acre of glyphosate on the high weeds. Weeds die down on top of seed, provides mulch, helps with moisture retention, etc. I call it the dirty plot.

 

[BSK]

Interesting smstone22. I wonder if it would work with grasses, as my plots often fill in with a dense growth of foxtail in late summer.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

I dont see why not as long as you kill them but my situation is mostly broadleaf weeds. It just takes more water in the sprayer to get good coverage. Another advantage to doing it this way is that with all of that mess in the field and mess falling down on the seeds it makes it alot harder for turkey to steal very much seed because it is well hidden unlike in a mowing situation.

 

[Football Hunter]

I dont see why not as long as you kill them but my situation is mostly broadleaf weeds. It just takes more water in the sprayer to get good coverage. Another advantage to doing it this way is that with all of that mess in the field and mess falling down on the seeds it makes it alot harder for turkey to steal very much seed because it is well hidden unlike in a mowing situation.

That sounds like a good plan,most of my stuff is grasses too.Hate feeding turkeys.

 

[richmanbarbeque]

Some of my past best plots have been from a harrow on the 4-wheeler just scratching the ground. I have also done several plots with success like Steven suggested. Sometimes the less equipment we have the better.

On my place before any tilling and mowing I had vey little invasives in my plots. I find I have more unwanted grasses than ever before. I have thought about going back to the way I started. The last few years I have my dirt chiseled so I might just start leaving it alone.

 

[BSK]

My major concern with not breaking ground is root growth. When the ground is not broken, roots can't penetrate beyond just the surface.

 

[Bayou Buck]

My major concern with not breaking ground is root growth. When the ground is not broken, roots can't penetrate beyond just the surface.

One thing that can help with this is mixing some forage radishes and other brassica with long roots into your seed mix. The roots generally work there way below the bulb fracturing the soil.

 

[BSK]

Not only do brassica/turnip/radish bulbs grow UP out of the ground in my plots, their tap root runs horizontally 4-feet sideways an inch under the surface!