Random thought about limits

[Food Plot 101]

Is it me, or do the majority of those wanting 2 buck limits hunt in other states in addition to TN, thus creating more buck opportunities?

I'd like to hear from hunters that hunt TN ONLY who are in favor of reducing the limit to 2 bucks. My guess is most of the hunters who support our current buck regs aren't afforded such opportunities. I apologize if this particular angle has already come up and been beaten to death. :)

For the record, I hunt TN and IL and don't support reducing limits.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

I only deer hunt TN and I support a lower limit. I don't see it being a majority that hunt other states. However perhaps those that do hunt other states easier recognize the benefits.


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[Mike Belt]

I only hunt Tn and support the 2 buck limit. It would seem to me that those that only hunt Tn and also favor the 2 buck limit want whatever advantage that might bring right here in their home state. I would think that those that also hunt out of state wouldn't really care one way or the other because they are hunting out of state.

 

[muddyboots]

I hunt only tn and I support 2 buck limit.

 

[AT Hiker]

I hunt multiple states and TN is the only one that allows you to kill more than 1 buck, some states I hunt I even have to draw a tag so its no guarantee I even get to hunt.

I rarely kill more than 1 buck in TN and a lot of years I dont even kill one, I support a reduced limit because a lot of smart people told me its beneficial and since they are not Tndeer biologist their opinions dont matter. Our family farm in Dickson is getting increased pressure from surrounding landowners, so I see fully what a 3 buck limit and virtually unlimited doe harvest can do to the hunting in a matter of a couple years. Before no one hunted the surrounding farms buck limits didnt affect us, now if you dont archery hunt or hunt the first weekend of muzzleloader your chances of killing anything drop dramatically. We do what we can do to help alleviate the pressure, but we can only do so much.

I have also seen what a strict manage state can produce, granted season is short but the hunting is phenomenal.






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[TLRanger]

The two buck limit does not mean only "two bucks". There are many opportunities for bonus bucks that do not count toward the statewide limit. LBL, Ft C,several Federal refuges, and quota draw hunts are some of these places. BTW, I hunt KY and TN. so I guess I shouldn't be answering your question although I am for the two buck statewide limit.

 

[AT Hiker]

. I would think that those that also hunt out of state wouldn't really care one way or the other because they are hunting out of state.

At the end of the day thats how I feel, but I hunt out of state for the experience and adventure. The geography of TN just simply cannot provide what I travel out of state for nor does it provide most of the species I chase either.


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[TN Whitetail Freak]

2 buck limit is no different than a 3 buck limit....make it a 1 buck limit with 15 inch minimum spread

 

[Jon54]

2 buck limit is no different than a 3 buck limit....make it a 1 buck limit with 15 inch minimum spread

Amen!

 

[deerchaser007]

I only hunt TN, and only hunt my home county, and support a 2 buck limit, with one of the bucks 4 pt on one side. WHY? Because yearling buck harvest is to high statewide. Yearling buck harvest should be no more than 25 to 30% of total buck harvest per county. Some areas are still over 50%, most others above 40%. Yes, I'm wanting more maturity in our herd, not because I'm a trophyist, but because of the benefit it produces to the health of our herd for the future.

 

[WG Taxidermist]

The two buck limit does not mean only "two bucks". There are many opportunities for bonus bucks that do not count toward the statewide limit. LBL, Ft C,several Federal refuges, and quota draw hunts are some of these places. BTW, I hunt KY and TN. so I guess I shouldn't be answering your question although I am for the two buck statewide limit.

And this is another point that really pisses me off! If it's going to be a 2 buck limit it should be a 2 buck limit total. NO BONUS BUCKS!

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[Food Plot 101]

I hunt multiple states and TN is the only one that allows you to kill more than 1 buck, some states I hunt I even have to draw a tag so its no guarantee I even get to hunt.

I rarely kill more than 1 buck in TN and a lot of years I dont even kill one, I support a reduced limit because a lot of smart people told me its beneficial and since they are not Tndeer biologist their opinions dont matter. Our family farm in Dickson is getting increased pressure from surrounding landowners, so I see fully what a 3 buck limit and virtually unlimited doe harvest can do to the hunting in a matter of a couple years. Before no one hunted the surrounding farms buck limits didnt affect us, now if you dont archery hunt or hunt the first weekend of muzzleloader your chances of killing anything drop dramatically. We do what we can do to help alleviate the pressure, but we can only do so much.

I have also seen what a strict manage state can produce, granted season is short but the hunting is phenomenal.

I do feel your pain re the pressure that surrounding farms can produce.

 

[Food Plot 101]

I only hunt TN, and only hunt my home county, and support a 2 buck limit, with one of the bucks 4 pt on one side. WHY? Because yearling buck harvest is to high statewide. Yearling buck harvest should be no more than 25 to 30% of total buck harvest per county. Some areas are still over 50%, most others above 40%. Yes, I'm wanting more maturity in our herd, not because I'm a trophyist, but because of the benefit it produces to the health of our herd for the future.

What areas of TN have unhealthy herds? I only hunt Davidson, Williamson, Sumner, Robertson, Trousdale and Macon so it must be east TN? I could limit out on 1.5-2.5 yo bucks on every farm I hunt on and they are all under 100 acres except one. It's unfortunate the eastern part of the state can't hold more deer so more does can be shot because it's sure some pretty country.

 

[Food Plot 101]

Thanks guys for your replies! It's gonna be interesting if this passes to see the "magic" results. I'm going to guess the side effect of extra bucks being spared is going to be more busted up racks. I've been noticing this for that last 6 or 8 years on a lot of the properties that we've been letting the young ones walk.

 

[TN Whitetail Freak]

Thanks guys for your replies! It's gonna be interesting if this passes to see the "magic" results. I'm going to guess the side effect of extra bucks being spared is going to be more busted up racks. I've been noticing this for that last 6 or 8 years on a lot of the properties that we've been letting the young ones walk.

I'm gonna say right now there will be no magical result...because point blank a 2 buck limit is no different than a 3 buck limit....when comes to achieving the results most hunters are thinking about.....bigger antlers will not result in a reduced buck limit from 3-2.....however a reduced limit from 3-1 would take 3 yrs (I'm guessing) to notice a difference in bigger antlers on avg because let's face it the bone on top of bucks heads is what's driving this topic.....not how many deer I see or overall herd health.....big antlers doesn't measure herd health......herd health is subjective from hunter to hunter.....I might base herd health on quality of antlers while another guy might base it on number of deer seen while another guy might base it off deer per Sq mile and the amount of food available

 

[Hunter 257W]

I hunt TN only and more specifically only my own 235 acres. I'm for the 2 buck limit because I've never seen nor photographed a mature (4.5 yr old) buck on my land since I started running trail cameras in back December 2004. I'm for any change that will let more bucks live another year.

 

[darn2ten]

I normally only hunt Tn., and I'm for a 2 buck limit. I guess I have a question here. For those that argue, and keep saying that only 3% of Tn hunters even kill 3 buck so it doesn't matter... Well then by the same token if it did drop to 2 then it would only affect a very small 3%. Am I missing something here? If the same ones who say leave it 3, and then turn around and say "But I let them walk, or usually don't kill more than 1 or 2 anyway", then I guess I don't see the argument. Something I really don't understand is if a "buck" has under 3" antlers it is counted as a doe. Any buck, I don't care how small should count as a buck and against your limit.

 

[Mike Belt]

The main argument supporting the "under 3 inch rule" is that it might undermine the shoot the does doctrine. It would be interesting to see if and how it did affect it.

 

[darn2ten]

I normally only hunt Tn., and I'm for a 2 buck limit. I guess I have a question here. For those that argue, and keep saying that only 3% of Tn hunters even kill 3 buck so it doesn't matter... Well then by the same token if it did drop to 2 then it would only affect a very small 3%. Am I missing something here? If the same ones who say leave it 3, and then turn around and say "But I let them walk, or usually don't kill more than 1 or 2 anyway", then I guess I don't see the argument. Something I really don't understand is if a "buck" has under 3" antlers it is counted as a doe. Any buck, I don't care how small should count as a buck and against your limit.

There a couple of things that you do not understand.
1)If the limit were 2 bucks and you killed your second one in ML season and lived in unit A or B, you could no longer legally hunt until an anterless hunt opened. It is about opportunity to hunt. It isn't about killing 3 bucks.
2)What is your solution to not kill button bucks? Crocodile Dundee nut check? I would like to see you pull that one off!!

Well... I guess if you kill your second buck during mzl. season then that was your choice and something you'll have to live with. As far as my solution to killing button bucks... Learn to identify what your looking at. Yearling bucks have very short muzzles, shorter necks and generally blocker bodies than that of the same size range of a doe. Shoot smaller "antlerless" deer during rifle after the rut that are by their self then you are taking a chance of killing buttons. If that's a chance you take and it is a buck then it should count. I know a group of guys that have a few open farms that like to try their long range skills on does during rifle, never fails and the end up killing a few yearling bucks they mistook for does about every year. Now just because they chose to snipe deer at 400+ yards and couldn't tell it wasn't a doe at last light then that makes it ok? I think not, they chose to do it that way for their enjoyment so they should live with their decision and if they're willing to take the chance then they need to own it.

 

[deerchaser007]

I only hunt TN, and only hunt my home county, and support a 2 buck limit, with one of the bucks 4 pt on one side. WHY? Because yearling buck harvest is to high statewide. Yearling buck harvest should be no more than 25 to 30% of total buck harvest per county. Some areas are still over 50%, most others above 40%. Yes, I'm wanting more maturity in our herd, not because I'm a trophyist, but because of the benefit it produces to the health of our herd for the future.

What areas of TN have unhealthy herds? I only hunt Davidson, Williamson, Sumner, Robertson, Trousdale and Macon so it must be east TN? I could limit out on 1.5-2.5 yo bucks on every farm I hunt on and they are all under 100 acres except one. It's unfortunate the eastern part of the state can't hold more deer so more does can be shot because it's sure some pretty country.

I never said our deer are unhealthy. BUT, since you brought it up, are our deer as healthy as they can be per age group? It has been said that TWRA is afraid we will return to post 2006 deer numbers, and unhealthy numbers can lead to another major dieoff if another heavy EHD outbreak occurs. SO, should we encourage more doe harvest in those areas with a reduction in buck limits to maintain balance? Here is another thing I find interesting, and nobody likes it when TN guys use another states data, but data is data. In GA, since the reduction and restrictions, they are regularly harvesting over 50% does, most cases does make up 55 to 60%. Now they have a estimated herd of 1 million, but with everything they have done and accomplished they have increased herd health per age class. This is shown in their biological data from harvest weights per deer per age class. AND, their bucks per age class have a average increase of 20 inches, proving their bucks are healthier than before. Fawn recruitment rates are still high enough to sustain the herd at their goal of 1 million, thus meaning healthy does are having healthy offsprings. Does TN have this data to back up their claims? TN has the data saying we are producing more mature bucks now than before, but were is the data saying they are healthy as they can be per age class? I have not seen it.
I'm proud you have all those places to hunt, I can understand you can limit out on bucks each year, but data is data. TN harvest to many 1.5 year old bucks. Its just not east TN, even middle and west has counties with over 40% yearling harvest. If your in an area with less than 30% fawn recruitment success rates and the yearling buck harvest is above 50%, your herd is not as healthy as it can be!

 

[Food Plot 101]

I only hunt TN, and only hunt my home county, and support a 2 buck limit, with one of the bucks 4 pt on one side. WHY? Because yearling buck harvest is to high statewide. Yearling buck harvest should be no more than 25 to 30% of total buck harvest per county. Some areas are still over 50%, most others above 40%. Yes, I'm wanting more maturity in our herd, not because I'm a trophyist, but because of the benefit it produces to the health of our herd for the future.

What areas of TN have unhealthy herds? I only hunt Davidson, Williamson, Sumner, Robertson, Trousdale and Macon so it must be east TN? I could limit out on 1.5-2.5 yo bucks on every farm I hunt on and they are all under 100 acres except one. It's unfortunate the eastern part of the state can't hold more deer so more does can be shot because it's sure some pretty country.

I never said our deer are unhealthy. BUT, since you brought it up, are our deer as healthy as they can be per age group? It has been said that TWRA is afraid we will return to post 2006 deer numbers, and unhealthy numbers can lead to another major dieoff if another heavy EHD outbreak occurs. SO, should we encourage more doe harvest in those areas with a reduction in buck limits to maintain balance? Here is another thing I find interesting, and nobody likes it when TN guys use another states data, but data is data. In GA, since the reduction and restrictions, they are regularly harvesting over 50% does, most cases does make up 55 to 60%. Now they have a estimated herd of 1 million, but with everything they have done and accomplished they have increased herd health per age class. This is shown in their biological data from harvest weights per deer per age class. AND, their bucks per age class have a average increase of 20 inches, proving their bucks are healthier than before. Fawn recruitment rates are still high enough to sustain the herd at their goal of 1 million, thus meaning healthy does are having healthy offsprings. Does TN have this data to back up their claims? TN has the data saying we are producing more mature bucks now than before, but were is the data saying they are healthy as they can be per age class? I have not seen it.
I'm proud you have all those places to hunt, I can understand you can limit out on bucks each year, but data is data. TN harvest to many 1.5 year old bucks. Its just not east TN, even middle and west has counties with over 40% yearling harvest. If your in an area with less than 30% fawn recruitment success rates and the yearling buck harvest is above 50%, your herd is not as healthy as it can be!

I believe you brought up the health of the herd first in your post. Hasn't GA been implementing TDMA errrr QDMA restrictions for years in several counties? I love data and the usefulness it provides. Do GA and TN have similar hunting habitat that can be compared? I may be wrong but I believe GA has much better habitat overall than TN due to ag and forestry practices? I hope our herd continues to be healthy and doesn't have a nasty EHD episode. Maybe it's mother natures way of saying nevermind data, you should have shot more does, :)

 

[Plain Old Dave]

Time to beat the dead horse again. At least for here (East TN), we're almost over-run with does. If people are serious about wanting to hunt trophies they can't eat (and that seems to be the primary reasoning behind the 2 buck/year change), the easiest way to do that is to open up either-sex opportunities here in Units A and B instead of cutting the buck limit. The deer problem is so bad here in Oak Ridge that people call the police for deer as *traffic hazards*. A couple of summers ago in the space of about a week a co-worker and my wife both hit deer over where 58 and 95 split. I'm a meat hunter and just don't have deep enough pockets to drive all the way to West Tennessee when there are plenty of does to shoot in A/B.

 

[TboneD]

I normally only hunt Tn., and I'm for a 2 buck limit. I guess I have a question here. For those that argue, and keep saying that only 3% of Tn hunters even kill 3 buck so it doesn't matter... Well then by the same token if it did drop to 2 then it would only affect a very small 3%. Am I missing something here? If the same ones who say leave it 3, and then turn around and say "But I let them walk, or usually don't kill more than 1 or 2 anyway", then I guess I don't see the argument. Something I really don't understand is if a "buck" has under 3" antlers it is counted as a doe. Any buck, I don't care how small should count as a buck and against your limit.

There a couple of things that you do not understand.
1)If the limit were 2 bucks and you killed your second one in ML season and lived in unit A or B, you could no longer legally hunt until an anterless hunt opened. It is about opportunity to hunt. It isn't about killing 3 bucks.
2)What is your solution to not kill button bucks? Crocodile Dundee nut check? I would like to see you pull that one off!!

Well... I guess if you kill your second buck during mzl. season then that was your choice and something you'll have to live with. As far as my solution to killing button bucks... Learn to identify what your looking at. Yearling bucks have very short muzzles, shorter necks and generally blocker bodies than that of the same size range of a doe. Shoot smaller "antlerless" deer during rifle after the rut that are by their self then you are taking a chance of killing buttons. If that's a chance you take and it is a buck then it should count. I know a group of guys that have a few open farms that like to try their long range skills on does during rifle, never fails and the end up killing a few yearling bucks they mistook for does about every year. Now just because they chose to snipe deer at 400+ yards and couldn't tell it wasn't a doe at last light then that makes it ok? I think not, they chose to do it that way for their enjoyment so they should live with their decision and if they're willing to take the chance then they need to own it.

I understand your viewpoint. It is not always that cut and dry but I understand. Again, it is all about opportunity. You apparently live and hunt in an area that allows anterless harvest throughout the entire season. Here in east TN, we do not have that luxury.

I will utilize my newly obtained unit L lease to its' fullest extent. I will shoot whatever walks by that doesn't have antlers. After all, I can take 3 per day there including button bucks. That is what I should have been doing all along anyway. Meat hunt in Unit L and buck hunt at home.

Thanks for demonstrating why it's absolutely ludicrous to allow 3 does, or "ANTLER-LESS" deer a day in Unit L. It's simply ridiculous. If said property has too many does then shoot some, but for crying out loud....


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[TN Whitetail Freak]

Time to beat the dead horse again. At least for here (East TN), we're almost over-run with does. If people are serious about wanting to hunt trophies they can't eat (and that seems to be the primary reasoning behind the 2 buck/year change), the easiest way to do that is to open up either-sex opportunities here in Units A and B instead of cutting the buck limit. The deer problem is so bad here in Oak Ridge that people call the police for deer as *traffic hazards*. A couple of summers ago in the space of about a week a co-worker and my wife both hit deer over where 58 and 95 split. I'm a meat hunter and just don't have deep enough pockets to drive all the way to West Tennessee when there are plenty of does to shoot in A/B.

Hunters do not shoot does for meat here in west tn....it seems the fork horns taste better

 

[stik]

when there are plenty of does to shoot in A/B.

not in all areas.

 

[stik]

Something I really don't understand is if a "buck" has under 3" antlers it is counted as a doe. Any buck, I don't care how small should count as a buck and against your limit.

they are NOT counted as a doe unless you check it in wrong.

if a buck with under 3 inch antlers is to count against my buck limit, it must be legal during "buck only" hunting.

 

[darn2ten]

Something I really don't understand is if a "buck" has under 3" antlers it is counted as a doe. Any buck, I don't care how small should count as a buck and against your limit.

they are NOT counted as a doe unless you check it in wrong.

if a buck with under 3 inch antlers is to count against my buck limit, it must be legal during "buck only" hunting.

Legal Bucks, Antlerless Deer, & Albino Deer
Legal Bucks
Deer must have antlers a minimum of 3 inches in length on buck-only or antlered-only hunts.
Antlerless Deer
Defined as those deer with no antlers or deer with antlers less than 3 inches in length.
Albino Deer
Hunting, trapping, or possession of albino deer is prohibited as set forth in TCA Chapter 70-4-130. An albino deer is a deer with a lack, or significant deficiency, of pigment in the skin and hair, and has pink eyes.

A buck with under 3" antlers is not legal to shoot at all if its a buck only hunt. I have personally on multiple occasions been at check stations and watched as bucks with under 3" antlers were counted as does and did not count against that persons limit.

 

[deerchaser007]

Foodplot101, again, I said the benefit of our herd for the future, not our deer are unhealthy. I never said our deer are unhealthy, but, asked the question can they be healthier.
Also, I know of zero states that have TDM guidelines in their states regulations. GA is not TDM by a long shot. Does GA manage for a quality deer herd, I say they do. AND, find nothing wrong with having a quality deer herd.
Its been years since I looked at the actual farming practices per state, but TN has always been in line with other southeastern states depending on type of crop. Not a lot of corn and soybean grown in GA though. TN actually has a big plus over GA, its called the central basin. Most of the places you hunt is in the central basin, and that soil is some of richest in the southeast. Now if you want to compare GA red clay soil to Chattanooga cherty soil of eastern TN, that's a different story. I will fully agree the pine rotation of south Ga is better habitat than most of east TN, but does red clay soil produce more nutrient rich plants over cherty soil? Also, the other limiting factor to extensive pine rotation such as some of those areas of south GA is lack of fall mast, which we have in TN.
If you want to have a habitat discussion, lets discuss areas with similar soils but in different states. Such as the Cumberland plateau, it runs from east KY down into TN, the mountains run from north GA, thru TN, into KY and VA and west VA, ETC. The central basin region of TN is alittle harder, not as rich as west KY, in areas similar to central KY. Might be able to get a fair comparison of west TN with north MS. Comparing GA red clay really don't have a equal, thus making habitat comparison difficult.
I will give a shout out for GA management, they went thru a LONG severe drought down there for consecutive years, and their herd was sustained and healthy enough to thrive thru it. That is huge.

 

[stik]

A buck with under 3" antlers is not legal to shoot at all if its a buck only hunt. I have personally on multiple occasions been at check stations and watched as bucks with under 3" antlers were counted as does and did not count against that persons limit.

i know all that BUT IF a buck with less than 3 inch antlers is going to count against my buck limit, they must be legal during buck only hunting. and they are checked as antlerless BUCKS unless checked out wrong. NOT a doe.

 

[darn2ten]

A buck with under 3" antlers is not legal to shoot at all if its a buck only hunt. I have personally on multiple occasions been at check stations and watched as bucks with under 3" antlers were counted as does and did not count against that persons limit.

i know all that BUT IF a buck with less than 3 inch antlers is going to count against my buck limit, they must be legal during buck only hunting. and they are checked as antlerless BUCKS unless checked out wrong. NOT a doe.

What unit are you in? I know in unit L where 3 does a day everyday of the season is legal, if you shoot a buck with under 3" antlers it's not counted against your 3 buck limit. That was my point, a buck is a buck no matter how long his antlers are.