Question for the group?

[DixieCrafter]

Over the years I have seen a myriad of problems with archers and their equipment, as an example, improperly spined arrows to name one!

[size]In your opinion: What do you think is the number one problem with archers and their gear?[/size]

I'll start it off! In my opinion the number one problem with archers and their gear and it's really big one: DRAW LENGTH!

I continue to be amazed at the number of people who are shooting a bow with the improper draw length! Usually it's on the long side! You have to have the draw length absolutely correct and spot-on! To me it is the foundation on which to build your form and shot process!

 

[Double Drops]

I'll have to agree with you there. I think a lot of people shoot bows that are way too long for them.

I think a lot of archers are trying to pull too much weight also. Just because you can pull it back once doesn't mean that's what you should have it set on. My accuracy went up when I started lowering the poundage.

Also, I see a lot of people grip the bow way too tightly.

I'm no pro by a long shot but these few things stick out to me.

 

[bowhunter163]

Draw length by far is #1 .

 

[Rickym]

Yeah I agree with draw length being #1

 

[burninpowder]

Draw length is #1. I do have some customers that are older that shoot really well with too long draw, but that's the way they have shot for years and don't want to change. Improper spined arrows is a close 2nd. Too many shops still rely on the Easton chart, which is one reason expandable broadheads are so popular.

 

[DixieCrafter]

Keep them coming! I really like the comments and free exchange of ideas and our collective thoughts!!!

 

[UTGrad]

Draw length #1

Improper arrow spine #2

Draw Weight #3

 

[TNDeerGuy]

Draw length by far followed by too much draw weight and then very closely followed by incorrect arrow spine.

 

[DixieCrafter]

​Here's a perfect example!

In the following narrative the names have been changed to protect the clueless!​

Wade and I have been shooting together for a while and we're traveling buds this year on the ASA circuit and several local shoots! Wade is a great guy and on some days he is a great shot!!! He has two top ten ASA finishes in his respective class this year. But, poor old Wade is plagued with lots of inconsistencies in his shooting!

At a recent local shoot Wade started strong with six 12's in a row and 8 of them in the first ten targets! The first ten targets were on mostly level ground and the next 15 were on rolling terrain and this is where the wheels began to come off with left and right inconsistencies! That day Wade shot 8 12's and finished 30 down!

Hmmmmmmmmmmm........? What's going on here? For about as long as I have been shooting with Wade I have told him that most of his problems are from an improper draw length! Well you see Wade is a little resistant to change and a lot on the cheap side! Even if he sees that a small amount of money can fix a problem for him, he is sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow to warm up to the idea! Of course it doesn't help that Wade has a wife that has a voice like nails on a chalkboard and acts like a ankle biting chihuahua doling out the chin music!

Wade has been shooting a C4 set on a 30" draw length and when you watch him shoot he is making all the classic moves to accommodate a bow that has too long a draw length! The wrist is bent using a hinge, his stance is closed and often reversed, the string is digging into his face hard with lots of face contact on the string, and the string is dug into nose so far it flattens out his nose like a Mack truck bulldog!

The problem is that Wade "looks" like he should have a 30" draw! Wade is 6'3" tall! To the trained eye it is very obvious that Wade is narrow in the chest and has short arms. For the sake of this discussion I probably don't look like my draw length should be very long, because I'm 4" shorter than Wade and much wider through the chest.

Measure me for draw length and you get 29.5" and when you measure Wade, he barely makes a 28.25" draw length and the poor guy has struggled with a 30" draw setting for a long time!

Wade finally got tired of leaving points behind for no explainable reason and about a week after we got back from TX, Wade has an epiphany and decides for himself that his problems aren't going to go away on all on its own!!! Attaboy Wade, that light bulb of innovation has finally lit up and you're headed to the Mathews dealer for a cam swap! Hallelujah and Amen! I've only been telling him for over a year that this could really help him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once Wade got the cam swapped out the difference it made has been utterly phenomenal! Most of the left and right issues are gone! He does have a lot of catching up to do by unlearning some bad habits he picked up! I think old Wade is on the right path now.............a little slow on the uptake, but getting there!

Just goes to show you that old dogs can (and need to) learn new tricks! Countless other shooters never saw or mentioned this problem, and the dealers never paid enough attention to notice the problem!

Watch out for your shooting buddies! :grin:

 

[UTGrad]

Wow Dixie...you're really passionate about this post lol

 

[Crow Terminator]

That's a loaded question. And it has no single answer.

You see, you're not exactly listing problems. Instead, you are giving root causes to problems. There's a difference.

Example:

Problem - An archer is throwing shots to the left quite often in their shooting sessions.

Well now we can start listing possible causes to the problem, and then we investigate each one until they can be eliminated or deemed as being a cause/contributor to the problem. It could be a lot of items to check too. That's why there's just not one answer.

The thing people forget is that shooting a bow GREAT, only requires that you do the same thing every time when you shoot it. In its simplest form...that's all there is to it.

BUT...how you get to that point, is going to be quite a journey. There's a lot of common ground to it that we could all agree on though. Incorrect draw length is a major contributor to a lot of problems archers do run into. However, it has also became the "goto" solution to every problem that archers have. Don't believe me? Go to ArcheryTalk and browse back through some of the posts. You could probably post on there that you get the runs after you eat at Taco Bell and at least 3 people will tell you that it was because your draw length was too long. In a lot of cases, draw length could use some tweaking. If most people looked at Reo Wilde while he was at full draw, they would say his draw length is way too long. But he is a multi time champion archer and can flat out shoot a bow and arrow. It all goes back to being able to repeat everything the same exact way every time.

 

[huntfish]

Ol Wade, good job D.C. this will definitely help him.

 

[DixieCrafter]

Wow Dixie...you're really passionate about this post lol

Yep, UTG I am! This is really a huge problem that plagues many archers and especially the most inexperienced! Offen our ego gets the best of us with more, bigger, and longer is better! Folks sure don't like admitting that their DL is really shorter because it would mean giving up speed! I'll trade speed for accuracy anytime!

I hate it when dealers just don't take the time to get the DL right! It is the cause of so many problems down the road! Yes, I enjoy helping others with what little I know when they are ready!

A rhetorical question: Would you buy a pair of shoes two or three sizes too large? Or too small? I sure as he I want shoes AND my bow to fit! Lol!

 

[deerhunter10]

for archers I think the number one problem is form and I fall in that category I get lazy sometimes and start getting bad habits that I have to correct later..

for their gear I think there are a few

draw length
arrows
draw weight
and I also think people fall into the brand category they want that bow even though it doesn't "fit" them they buy it because they got the Matthews brand or hoyt brand or elite brand etc. to be like their buddies and they don't shop around and find that one bow.

 

[TNDeerGuy]

Wow Dixie...you're really passionate about this post lol

Yep, UTG I am! This is really a huge problem that plagues many archers and especially the most inexperienced! Offen our ego gets the best of us with more, bigger, and longer is better! Folks sure don't like admitting that their DL is really shorter because it would mean giving up speed! [color:#FF0000]I'll trade speed for accuracy anytime![/color]

I hate it when dealers just don't take the time to get the DL right! It is the cause of so many problems down the road! Yes, I enjoy helping others with what little I know when they are ready!

A rhetorical question: Would you buy a pair of shoes two or three sizes too large? Or too small? I sure as he I want shoes AND my bow to fit! Lol!

You would? Those spirals have affected your reasoning. ;) :D :D

 

[remke]

trying to keep up with Andy, first I had to get a new release, now I have to go out and get a new bow..
THANKS ANDY
LOL

 

[TNDeerGuy]

Oh my dear friend, there are much better people to follow than me�set your goals higher. ;)

 

[DixieCrafter]

Wow Dixie...you're really passionate about this post lol

Yep, UTG I am! This is really a huge problem that plagues many archers and especially the most inexperienced! Offen our ego gets the best of us with more, bigger, and longer is better! Folks sure don't like admitting that their DL is really shorter because it would mean giving up speed! [color:#FF0000]I'll trade speed for accuracy anytime![/color]

I hate it when dealers just don't take the time to get the DL right! It is the cause of so many problems down the road! Yes, I enjoy helping others with what little I know when they are ready!

A rhetorical question: Would you buy a pair of shoes two or three sizes too large? Or too small? I sure as he I want shoes AND my bow to fit! Lol!

You would? Those spirals have affected your reasoning. ;) :D :D

Well wiseacre Andy what is it that you are trying to say? I said I would trade speed [size][color:#FF0000]for[/color][/size] accuracy any day! What is your reasoning?

 

[TNDeerGuy]

Wow Dixie...you're really passionate about this post lol

Yep, UTG I am! This is really a huge problem that plagues many archers and especially the most inexperienced! Offen our ego gets the best of us with more, bigger, and longer is better! Folks sure don't like admitting that their DL is really shorter because it would mean giving up speed! [color:#FF0000]I'll trade speed for accuracy anytime![/color]

I hate it when dealers just don't take the time to get the DL right! It is the cause of so many problems down the road! Yes, I enjoy helping others with what little I know when they are ready!

A rhetorical question: Would you buy a pair of shoes two or three sizes too large? Or too small? I sure as he I want shoes AND my bow to fit! Lol!

You would? Those spirals have affected your reasoning. ;) :D :D

Well wiseacre Andy what is it that you are trying to say? I said I would trade speed [size][color:#FF0000]for[/color][/size] accuracy any day! What is your reasoning?

LOL....you got me! I guess my reading comprehension suffers when I am trying to operate fully on 1 hour of sleep in a 36 hour period and I barely remember writing that. By the way...you're correct now that I have read it correctly�I would give up speed for accuracy any day. :)

 

[UTGrad]

Party!!!

 

[Radar]

I have to agree , incorrect draw length is the number one problem . And touching on the speed subject as well , I believe too many archers focus on speed alone , and in many cases sacrifice forgiveness and accuracy to achieve a few more FPS .
This quest for more speed is too often the reason for incorrect draw length and draw weight .

 

[DixieCrafter]

I have to agree , incorrect draw length is the number one problem . And touching on the speed subject as well , I believe too many archers focus on speed alone , and in many cases sacrifice forgiveness and accuracy to achieve a few more FPS .
This quest for more speed is too often the reason for incorrect draw length and draw weight .

Very well said, indeed!

 

[Crow Terminator]

The draw length saga is made even more complicated by people not understanding what it really is or how to measure it. All manufacturers are not created equal on this. In the name of speed claims (because speed sells) some manufacturers will fudge on the draw length a little to make the bows seem faster. I.E. we will take a bow that actually measures 30.5 inches, and put a stamp on the cam and limbs saying its a 30. Then they'll shoot it through the chrony and advertise those speeds they get with it. It may only be 5 fps more but I've seen people sell their "old" bows for a brand new one that was just 5 fps faster. Speed sells.

It amazes me at the variance in draw length numbers from bow company to bow company. So you can't just go into a bow shop and say "I'm a 28" draw length" and pick up the bows that have 28" on them and be good to go in every case. Add into the mix that strings and cables do stretch a little and the bow gets out of spec. Especially if the bow is a 70# model and you back it down in poundage. That will increase your draw length in most cases by just enough to throw you off unless you go ahead and put the bow in spec via twisting or untwisting string/cables for the poundage you intend to shoot. Its best to just buy the bow with the max poundage you want. If you only plan on shooting 62 pounds...its best to buy a 60 or 65 pound max limb bow vs buying a 70# one and backing it down to 62.

There's a lot of little stuff in that, that people don't know or don't realize. Those of us that shoot a lot, take this stuff for common knowledge but to those that don't live and breathe archery, it may not be well known. I think that all bow companies should abide by AMO standards and if it says its 28 inches on the bow...it should measure 28 inches on the draw board or tape measure.

 

[W.Seay]

Draw length by far is #1 .

Yep

 

[W.Seay]

Also, many guys think they have to pull 70 lbs to kill a deer. So they set up at 70 lbs and literally have to do a rain dance to get the bow drawn! If it is a struggle to pull the bow back while in a sitting position or when it's cold, you probably need to drop the poundage down.

 

[PillsburyDoughboy]

I don't think the #1 problem is equipment related at all.

Sure bad equipment, incorrect draw length and too heavy of poundage can be a deterrent on accuracy. But I think the number one problem with shooters is form!

I'm no call the 14 ring shooter and hit it on demand but I am no slouch either. But I can pick up most any bow rather it be too long, too short, too heavy or too light and be somewhat consistent with it.

Good form will get you there!!

 

[TNDeerGuy]

I don't think the #1 problem is equipment related at all.

Sure bad equipment, incorrect draw length and too heavy of poundage can be a deterrent on accuracy. But I think the number one problem with shooters is form!

I'm no call the 14 ring shooter and hit it on demand but I am no slouch either. But I can pick up most any bow rather it be too long, too short, too heavy or too light and be somewhat consistent with it.

Good form will get you there!!

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree....how can a person have proper form with equipment that is not setup/sized correctly? That is like saying I can run the Boston Marathon tomorrow with shoes that are either two sizes too small or too big, or can somewhat consistently hit homeruns with an incorrect sized ball bat or probably the best analogy would be to consistently play par golf with clubs that are too long or too short. Maybe it's just me, but the logic isn't there.

 

[Grill-n-man]

The number one problem has nothing to do with form, draw length, draw weight, etc. The number one problem is all the bull, or hype some may call it, that is out there. No one wants to address individual skill. Nothing can help, regardless of what equipment is available, if the skill is not there. All this crap floating around on TV, magazines, forums, yada yada has got everyone believing they can shoot thru 1 inch PVC pipe then thru kitchen off the nightstand and hit the golf ball. Bull you have to have the skill to do it. Practice all day and everyday don't matter if you don't have it you don't have. Best example out there is Nascar. All the cars are pretty much the same but it is the skill that allows the driver to win. Look at golf, all you got to do is hit a little ball with a steel stick and have it go in a hole in the ground. Sounds pretty easy dont it. Equipment dont get the ball in the hole skill does. Sure equipment that fits helps make anyone a better shooter but it is the individuals skill that determines how well they shoot. If your skill level only allows to you shoot out to say 30 yards then you don't need $2000 worth of crap, match grade this, precision this, to do it. After all this only archery not rocket science. Its not that complicated or hard if you stay inside YOUR skill level.

 

[PillsburyDoughboy]

I don't think the #1 problem is equipment related at all.

Sure bad equipment, incorrect draw length and too heavy of poundage can be a deterrent on accuracy. But I think the number one problem with shooters is form!

I'm no call the 14 ring shooter and hit it on demand but I am no slouch either. But I can pick up most any bow rather it be too long, too short, too heavy or too light and be somewhat consistent with it.

Good form will get you there!!

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree....how can a person have proper form with equipment that is not setup/sized correctly? That is like saying I can run the Boston Marathon tomorrow with shoes that are either two sizes too small or too big, or can somewhat consistently hit homeruns with an incorrect sized ball bat or probably the best analogy would be to consistently play par golf with clubs that are too long or too short. Maybe it's just me, but the logic isn't there.

What I am saying is if I were to put my bow in your hands. Lets say your a 30 inch draw and I am a 28 inch draw. Mine is a whisker bisket and yours is a fall away. Yours has a micro adjustable sight and mine has a fixed sight. You clearly are going to shoot your better yes???

But are you going to totally be off target and not be able to group a round of arrows without a little bit of familiarity with my bow???

Of course you will do well with it. Its because you have good form. Good form makes up for bad equipment of border line equipment or incorrect size and weight.

Its all about the form.

As to skill???

I agree there are just some people that have it and some people that don't. Some people are just born with talent that no matter what they pick up rather it be a rifle, shotgun, bow or sack full of rocks they can flat out shoot.

But people with good form will develop good skill. Rather they were born with it or not.

 

[UTGrad]

If we're talking about hitting a pie plate at 20 yards sure you can with good form hit the target with the wrong draw length.

Now if we are talking about busting golf tees consistently at 20 yards I don't care how good your form is...equipment fit is paramount.