Question for BSK.

[recurve60#]

Im trying to explain to a guy that does pass on the antler genetics. He cant wrap his mind around that and I remember you have posted some research on that. Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[Tnshooter15]

It's basic biology. The doe contributes 50 percent of all characteristics.

 

[Andy S.]

^^^ What he said. Both parents are contributors to their offspring's DNA, including the antler-coding genes.

 

[redblood]

Im trying to explain to a guy that does pass on the antler genetics. He cant wrap his mind around that and I remember you have posted some research on that. Any help is greatly appreciated!

No different in people and sex linked traits. Men pass on a gene that influences breast size in their female offspring, just like the mother does.

 

[ROB]

Baldness in humans tends to be passed thru the mother's genetics. My mom's dad was as bald as a ping pong ball. All the men on my dad's side of the family kept their hair. I'm now sporting a western haircut: a lot of wide open spaces! Thanks a lot, Poppa!

 

[recurve60#]

Actually my understanding is bucks get antler genetics from their mother.
Lets say a twelve pointer breeds a doe and the doe has a buck fawn. That buck fawn will have the antler genes of the father of his mother, not the twelve pointer that bred his mom.

 

[BSK]

Im trying to explain to a guy that does pass on the antler genetics. He cant wrap his mind around that and I remember you have posted some research on that. Any help is greatly appreciated!

Many examples exist of sex-linked traits. In essence, traits that are only carried on the X or Y chromosome. If it is on the X chromosome, a male can only get that trait from his mother, as he had to get the Y chromosome from his father. Examples of sex-linked traits in humans are red-green colorblindness, male-pattern baldness, hemophilia, and Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy. Although the genetics of antlers in bucks is still little understood, and is clearly VERY complex, there is strong indication the general shape and configuration of the antlers are passed from mother to son. In a review of parentage for deer at the Univ. of Georgia research facility, where the parentage of many generations of deer is known for certain, it was found that male offspring of individual bucks did not produce antlers that looked anything like their father's antlers. Not in size, shape, configuration, etc. All of a single buck's male offspring would have very different antlers. Yet when looking at all of the male offspring of a given doe, those bucks DID produce antlers that were similar in shape and configuration. This STRONGLY suggests mothers are passing on the major genetic components of antler shape/configuration to their male offspring, while fathers are not. Now this doesn't mean males don't pass on ANY genetic antler information. A few deer breeders who appear to have figured out more about heritable antler traits than is available in the scientific literature are still selectively breeding particular bucks to pass on specific traits, but the basic-frame of antler shape and point configuration appears to be passed from mother to son.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

I'll see if I can find it, but I was watching something Dr. Grant Woods was doing and he read off a new study that came out stating that 65-70% of a buck's antler genetics came from their mother.

 

[sc8point]

Many examples exist of sex-linked traits. In essence, traits that are only carried on the X or Y chromosome. If it is on the X chromosome, a male can only get that trait from his mother, as he had to get the Y chromosome from his father. Examples of sex-linked traits in humans are red-green colorblindness, male-pattern baldness, hemophilia, and Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy. Although the genetics of antlers in bucks is still little understood, and is clearly VERY complex, there is strong indication the general shape and configuration of the antlers are passed from mother to son. In a review of parentage for deer at the Univ. of Georgia research facility, where the parentage of many generations of deer is known for certain, it was found that male offspring of individual bucks did not produce antlers that looked anything like their father's antlers. Not in size, shape, configuration, etc. All of a single buck's male offspring would have very different antlers. Yet when looking at all of the male offspring of a given doe, those bucks DID produce antlers that were similar in shape and configuration. This STRONGLY suggests mothers are passing on the major genetic components of antler shape/configuration to their male offspring, while fathers are not. Now this doesn't mean males don't pass on ANY genetic antler information. A few deer breeders who appear to have figured out more about heritable antler traits than is available in the scientific literature are still selectively breeding particular bucks to pass on specific traits, but the basic-frame of antler shape and point configuration appears to be passed from mother to son.

So do you think a doe would pass antler genetic code along to female offspring thus continuing the antler trait in that lineage of does?

 

[DoubleRidge]

So....with mothers passing on the major genetic components of antler shape/configuration to their male offspring....I wonder where the mother gets the genetic components? From her father?.....I ask because every time we've killed a nice buck off of the property I've often wondered if, or hoped that, his genes have been passed on....so would it be doe fawns we should hope the nice buck fathers? (crazy question I know)...and not that we can control any of that...just interesting to discuss and think about.

 

[recurve60#]

Many examples exist of sex-linked traits. In essence, traits that are only carried on the X or Y chromosome. If it is on the X chromosome, a male can only get that trait from his mother, as he had to get the Y chromosome from his father. Examples of sex-linked traits in humans are red-green colorblindness, male-pattern baldness, hemophilia, and Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy. Although the genetics of antlers in bucks is still little understood, and is clearly VERY complex, there is strong indication the general shape and configuration of the antlers are passed from mother to son. In a review of parentage for deer at the Univ. of Georgia research facility, where the parentage of many generations of deer is known for certain, it was found that male offspring of individual bucks did not produce antlers that looked anything like their father's antlers. Not in size, shape, configuration, etc. All of a single buck's male offspring would have very different antlers. Yet when looking at all of the male offspring of a given doe, those bucks DID produce antlers that were similar in shape and configuration. This STRONGLY suggests mothers are passing on the major genetic components of antler shape/configuration to their male offspring, while fathers are not. Now this doesn't mean males don't pass on ANY genetic antler information. A few deer breeders who appear to have figured out more about heritable antler traits than is available in the scientific literature are still selectively breeding particular bucks to pass on specific traits, but the basic-frame of antler shape and point configuration appears to be passed from mother to son.

Thanks!

 

[BSK]

So do you think a doe would pass antler genetic code along to female offspring thus continuing the antler trait in that lineage of does?

Yes. In fact, many bucks leave their birth range and disperse sometimes great distances to establish an adult range. If antler shape was primarily passed down from fathers, they would take those traits with them when they leave. However, have you ever noticed how a given location keeps producing the same shape rack year after year, often for decades? In fact, sometimes specific locations become "famous" in hunting circles for a particular antler trait. Why does that trait keep showing up in the same locations over many years? Because it is being passed on the X chromosome down to many of the females in the population, and female social groups do not disperse from their birth range anywhere near as frequently or as far as bucks do.

 

[BSK]

So....with mothers passing on the major genetic components of antler shape/configuration to their male offspring....I wonder where the mother gets the genetic components? From her father?.....I ask because every time we've killed a nice buck off of the property I've often wondered if, or hoped that, his genes have been passed on....so would it be doe fawns we should hope the nice buck fathers? (crazy question I know)...and not that we can control any of that...just interesting to discuss and think about.

A buck will have an X and a Y chromosome. He had to get the X from his mother. He has to then give that same X to his daughters. So, he carries that antler genetics with him, and passes it to his offspring, but only to his daughters.

 

[sc8point]

Yes. In fact, many bucks leave their birth range and disperse sometimes great distances to establish an adult range. If antler shape was primarily passed down from fathers, they would take those traits with them when they leave. However, have you ever noticed how a given location keeps producing the same shape rack year after year, often for decades? In fact, sometimes specific locations become "famous" in hunting circles for a particular antler trait. Why does that trait keep showing up in the same locations over many years? Because it is being passed on the X chromosome down to many of the females in the population, and female social groups do not disperse from their birth range anywhere near as frequently or as far as bucks do.

So the history of 6 point bucks on my farm is being passed down by the females.

 

[BSK]

So the history of 6 point bucks on my farm is being passed down by the females.

That is a real possibility, as long as food resources aren't a major problem.

I've seen areas where an incredibly high percentage of the local bucks don't grow browtines. That is unquestionably a genetic trait.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

For about the first 10 years we had our place, the majority of bucks would not have a left browtine. Over the years of hammering the does (for no other reason than just wanting the meat), we unintentionally created a doe sink, where does from surrounding areas filled in "the gap" on our place that could now support more deer. Again, it was unintentional, but we now have some really great traits and unique antler characteristics we believe came from those does in the surrounding areas.

 

[Lost Lake]

For about the first 10 years we had our place, the majority of bucks would not have a left browtine. Over the years of hammering the does (for no other reason than just wanting the meat), we unintentionally created a doe sink, where does from surrounding areas filled in "the gap" on our place that could now support more deer. Again, it was unintentional, but we now have some really great traits and unique antler characteristics we believe came from those does in the surrounding areas.

I think this happened on our place too. We killed a lot of does for several years, and at the same time, most bucks would have a long beam on one side, maybe one tine, and a normal rack on the other. Most didn't have brow tines. At first I thought it was injury related, but we saw it way too much for that.

My guess is now, that does with different genetics moved in, and we only occasionally see those same funky racks.

 

[sc8point]

Many examples exist of sex-linked traits. In essence, traits that are only carried on the X or Y chromosome. If it is on the X chromosome, a male can only get that trait from his mother, as he had to get the Y chromosome from his father. Examples of sex-linked traits in humans are red-green colorblindness, male-pattern baldness, hemophilia, and Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy. Although the genetics of antlers in bucks is still little understood, and is clearly VERY complex, there is strong indication the general shape and configuration of the antlers are passed from mother to son. In a review of parentage for deer at the Univ. of Georgia research facility, where the parentage of many generations of deer is known for certain, it was found that male offspring of individual bucks did not produce antlers that looked anything like their father's antlers. Not in size, shape, configuration, etc. All of a single buck's male offspring would have very different antlers. Yet when looking at all of the male offspring of a given doe, those bucks DID produce antlers that were similar in shape and configuration. This STRONGLY suggests mothers are passing on the major genetic components of antler shape/configuration to their male offspring, while fathers are not. Now this doesn't mean males don't pass on ANY genetic antler information. A few deer breeders who appear to have figured out more about heritable antler traits than is available in the scientific literature are still selectively breeding particular bucks to pass on specific traits, but the basic-frame of antler shape and point configuration appears to be passed from mother to son.

This is the best example of the 6 pointer to date but several have been nice deer that I am happy to kill but they only have the brow times and one point up on the main beam. We used to think that we could kill enough 6 point bucks and get rid of the trait but not quiet so easy.

 

[shirtshirt]

nutrition in utero is also a very important factor (perhaps most important). I'll see if I can find that study.

 

[MickThompson]

That is a real possibility, as long as food resources aren't a major problem.

I've seen areas where an incredibly high percentage of the local bucks don't grow browtines. That is unquestionably a genetic trait.

But what about yearling buck dispersal? Shouldn't they be seeing everyone else's buck fawn genetics?

 

[BSK]

nutrition in utero is also a very important factor (perhaps most important). I'll see if I can find that study.

It is both a combination of nutrition in utero as well as a system called "epigenetics." Epigenetics is a system of changes to expressed traits where the actual DNA does not change. This has been studied in humans and is the reason women who have experienced severe famine continue to produce underweight children long after the famine has subsided. In fact, these odd changes in expression are actually heritable (get passed on to the next generation) even though the person's DNA has not changed. This is the cause of the deer studies out of the Black Hills of South Dakota that found it took several generations away from the low food quality of the Black Hills before body and antler development equaled that of deer from the high-quality habitat of the Plains of South Dakota. The continuous exposure to the low food quality of the Black Hills region had produced an epigenetic expression for lower body weight and antler growth (a survival mechanism for deer living in low-quality habitat) in deer of the region. Removing them and taking them to a high-quality habitat region did not increase their body weight or antler growth. It took several generations of deer living in the high-quality deer habitat before the Black Hills lineage deer lost that epigenetic expression and began producing bodies/antlers similar in size to the local Plains deer.

 

[BSK]

But what about yearling buck dispersal? Shouldn't they be seeing everyone else's buck fawn genetics?

Much depends on the local situation. If mother does are being removed (if there is a doe harvest in the area) dispersal is reduced. If no females are being removed, dispersal will be high. But even in a high-dispersal area, not all bucks disperse.

 

[EastTNHunter]

This is the best example of the 6 pointer to date but several have been nice deer that I am happy to kill but they only have the brow times and one point up on the main beam. We used to think that we could kill enough 6 point bucks and get rid of the trait but not quiet so easy.

I'd rather shoot a big 6 than an 8, I believe.

 

[BSK]

This is the best example of the 6 pointer to date but several have been nice deer that I am happy to kill but they only have the brow times and one point up on the main beam. We used to think that we could kill enough 6 point bucks and get rid of the trait but not quiet so easy.

Although you're probably not making much genetic impact trying to "shoot out" a particular antler trait by killing the bucks displaying that trait, I have to admit I often target 6-or-less point older bucks.