Protect Does = More Bucks???

Tennessee Deer Sporting & Deer Hunting Community Forum

Help Support TNDeer | Tennessee Deer:

bigfoot318

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2002
Messages
236
City & State/Province
Athens, TN
I have been having a heated discussion with a friend of mine about shooting does.

I am of the mindset if you shoot all the does you can legally you are actually helping the deer herd.

My friend is of the mindset that you should protect does since the does have fawns in a roughly 1:1 buck/doe ratio. More buck fawns = more big bucks later down the road.

I got 3 does in Kentucky this year and passed numerous small bucks. The opening day of season in KY I saw 16 does and 3 very small bucks. Should I have let the does go in hopes of seeing more big bucks later down the road or was shooting the does the right thing to do?

Am I right, is my friend right or are we both sorta right?
 
I always see more mature bucks the following season when we harvest a lot of does. I usually like to do it late, since it will be cold and easier to deal with them. We try to harvest at least 3 does to every buck harvested on the farm.
 
156p&y said:
I always see more mature bucks the following season when we harvest a lot of does. I usually like to do it late, since it will be cold and easier to deal with them. We try to harvest at least 3 does to every buck harvested on the farm.

Yep...whenever we slaughter the does, it seems to be bucks galore the following year
 
So long as you don't shoot too many...

We killed 4 off my FILs club this past weekend. I have 2 more tags that I hope to fill on film in an afternoon hunt in a couple of weeks.

I saw 30 does and 6 bucks in my 2 day hunt there early Nov. They have plenty to spare and we decided the herd needed reduced to intensify the rut and prserve food sources.
 
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases. Product prices and availability are accurate as of the date/time indicated and are subject to change.
It's a numbers game balanced with food sources...

More does= more fawns= more bucks growing up for future years.

More does= more deer= less food per deer= smaller antlers and poorer body condition.

I'm a big proponent of shooting does to maximize available food for the remaining herd for health and antler quality.

That being said, I actually restricted nearly all doe harvest on my farms this year... because we've doubled our food sources from years past. Since our carrying capacity has increased so much, we're allowing the population to likewise increase. It'll mean even more sightings in the future and more deer available for harvest each year.
 
I would say each property is different. Only good way to decide is run trail cams to see what your doe numbers look like or in stand viewing. When I first got my farm I ran trail cams all year. Between the cams and live viewing I knew I was over loaded wih doe. The first few years we harvested alot of doe. Then EHD hit use hard and trail cam pics of doe dropped way off. So we cut way back on doe harvest, well all deer harvests were cut back for a couple years. This year were seeing the doe numbers back up. So were harvesting couple doe every trip down again.
 
Depends on herd dynamics to start with. Some areas need heavy harvest of does, while others need every deer and more to promote herd growth.
 
I will go in the minority here. I got too hunt a buddy's property last year. 400 acres farm land that only he hunts. He never shoots a doe with a bow or gun. He has killed mature bucks for as long as i remember. He couldnt hunt last year and let me hunt last year only. Besides presidents island it was the best hunting i have ever seen.
 
Managing deer populations and herd structure on small properties is a complicated and frustrating endeavor, as deer have large ranges, Yearling Buck Dispersal (YBD) throws a monkey-wrench into the picture, and bucks often shift ranges throughout the year. What I'm getting at is the deer using your small property also use many, many other properties at any one given time or at different times through the hunting season. The deer using your property on a given day are subject to the harvest policies of many hunters on many other properties on other days. It can be very difficult to control or effect herd structure without controlling the harvest policies over a large area.

But to answer some of your specific questions:

bigfoot318 said:
I have been having a heated discussion with a friend of mine about shooting does.

I am of the mindset if you shoot all the does you can legally you are actually helping the deer herd.

How many does to harvest is one of the toughest questions in any management program. Doe harvests are used to control herd density and influence the adult sex ratio. The only way to know if you have too many deer is to assess browse pressure at the lowest food production time of year--late winter. And often, several years of late winter browse surveys are required to get a true picture. Browse pressure will be lower in a winter following a big red oak acorn crop. Red oak acorns last through the winter and are a top-choice winter food. A high availability of red oak acorns will reduce feeding pressure on other foods, hiding indicators of overpopulation.

Another consideration is the doe harvest policies of hunters on neighboring properties. If they are shooting does, it won't take many doe harvests on your property to see a difference. If neighbors are not shooting does, you can shoot does until the cows come home and you won't see much of a difference, especially if your small property is a "doe sink."

As Mega pointed out, deer density is closely linked to herd health. The more deer you have, the more the top-quality food sources need to be shared between more mouths, reducing the average health per deer. Lower densities allow each deer to consume a higher percent of high-quality foods in their total diet hence health and performace increase. The results of this "density dependency" can be seen in the areas that were hit hardest by the EHD outbreak in '07. The lower deer densities in these areas post-EHD allowed for much better antler growth per buck over following years.


My friend is of the mindset that you should protect does since the does have fawns in a roughly 1:1 buck/doe ratio. More buck fawns = more big bucks later down the road.

This idea is all good in theory, and certainly holds true when looking at large areas, but for individual properties, it can be deceiving. Yes, more does can mean more fawns, but fawn production is linked to herd health. If an area has too many deer, the large number of does can actually produce fewer total fawns (low fawn recruitment) than a much lower number of much healthier does could(very high fawn recruitment). For example, 100 does in an area experiencing 20% fawn recruitment only produce 20 surviving fawns each year. Yet 50 does in an area experiencing 80% fawn recruitment produce 40 surviving fawns each year. That's twice as many fawns from half as many does.

And when discussing button bucks, remember that most does will chasing their male offspring out of their birth range before their son is of breeding age. This is the process known as Yearling Buck Dispersal (YBD). Those young males may travel miles from their birth range before establishing a new range. This means that many of the button bucks born on your property end up being adult bucks miles away. A high percentage of the adult bucks using your property now were born miles away and dispersed to your area as yearlings.


I got 3 does in Kentucky this year and passed numerous small bucks. The opening day of season in KY I saw 16 does and 3 very small bucks. Should I have let the does go in hopes of seeing more big bucks later down the road or was shooting the does the right thing to do?

Just remember that what deer you see while hunting is not a good indicator of what is really out there in the woods. Due to buck-centric harvest practices, bucks are generally more nocturnal than does (leading to less sightings of them when hunting in daylight), and older deer are more nocturnal than younger deer (more experience evading hunters). The only way to know what is really out there is with a well run camera census.
 
BSK said:
And when discussing button bucks, remember that most does will chasing their male offspring out of their birth range before their son is of breeding age. This is the process known as Yearling Buck Dispersal (YBD). Those young males may travel miles from their birth range before establishing a new range. This means that many of the button bucks born on your property end up being adult bucks miles away. A high percentage of the adult bucks using your property now were born miles away and dispersed to your area as yearlings.
That is is what I have always been told. When shooting does I try to pick some with button bucks in hopes he will stay in the area. I encourage others in our area to do the same. Not sure it will make a difference but I do see a lot more bucks now. My one concern is even though he can't inbreed with his mother since she is dead, is he going to inbreed with some other off springs of his father? Is that going to cause a problem in the future?
 
DWM,

Although YBD probably first developed as a behavior to limit inbreeding, the whitetail deer species is so genetically diverse that inbreeding really isn't a problem like it is in species (like humans) with very little genetic diversity.
 
JCDEERMAN said:
156p&y said:
I always see more mature bucks the following season when we harvest a lot of does. I usually like to do it late, since it will be cold and easier to deal with them. We try to harvest at least 3 does to every buck harvested on the farm.

Yep...whenever we slaughter the does, it seems to be bucks galore the following year

I have always looked at this, as if we shoot more does then more bucks will be moving bc there are less does there, so they have to get up and find them? close to correct?
 
BSK said:
What I'm getting at is the deer using your small property also use many, many other properties at any one given time or at different times through the hunting season.

I got my first experience of this during the week of Thanksgiving. I had never hunted during gun season until this year. I had numerous different deer around me every morning. I don't think I saw the same deer twice all week except for 1 spike. What I did have happen though on saturday morning was I let a bunch of deer roll through waiting on a nice deer. They rolled out across a 40 acre field toward a neighbors property. He lives in Michigan, but he lets several people hunt there. I heard 3 shots come from that area over the course of about 15 minutes. I have no idea how many they killed, but I took 1 doe during archery and 1 small buck on accident during gun.

Trying to get a census on small properties has to be the toughest due to surrounding pressure during season and not knowing who to even talk to in order to get their harvest strategy and figure mine in as well. As a result, I am yet to see over a 2 1/2 year old with my own eyes and only a few pictures of what I speculate to be 3 1/2 year olds.
 
Trevor2 said:
JCDEERMAN said:
156p&y said:
I always see more mature bucks the following season when we harvest a lot of does. I usually like to do it late, since it will be cold and easier to deal with them. We try to harvest at least 3 does to every buck harvested on the farm.

Yep...whenever we slaughter the does, it seems to be bucks galore the following year

I have always looked at this, as if we shoot more does then more bucks will be moving bc there are less does there, so they have to get up and find them? close to correct?

Not close, but exactly correct. One of the reasons we often see 5-7 bucks on the first doe that comes in. Also another reason we see so many older bucks cruising right before the rut. Competition makes them do stupid things, like walk out in open fields in the middle of the day :)
 
you have to take the necessary amount of does each year. the land can only carry so many deer and you need to balance that herd.
 
megalomaniac said:
Competition makes them do stupid things, like walk out in open fields in the middle of the day :)

I wish our older bucks would do stupid stuff like walking through open fields in daylight. Never seen that (although I do have a few pictures of older to even mature bucks walking through food plots in daylight just before peak breeding kicks in).
 
For the exception of the first 2 weeks of bowseason, we have NEVER seen nor gotten a picture of a mature buck in an open field during daylight in the last decade. That sure would be nice for the rut to make them "stupid" enough to come out into the open. Heck, where we are, our mature bucks wont come into open hardwoods UNLESS they are moving from one thicket to another thats within 100 yards apart :crazy:
 
There are a lot of people in my area that are convinced that the more does you shoot the bigger your bucks get. That only works if there is insufficient food to go around or if your buck to doe ratio is so insanely out of whack that the bucks run themselves to death trying to get the ladies bred. I shoot does when I have a reason to. The reason might be that I want meat, I want to try out a new bullet or broadhead, or maybe one just pisses me off. So far, I've seen nothing in my area that would indicate that we are close to or over carrying capacity, so I don't really buy into the "shoot more does for management purposes" doctrine at this point. Rather than shooting does that I don't need, I try to provide more and better food sources so that I can increase the carrying capacity and reduce stress on the herd during the winter months.
 
You have to make your decisions based on the property location (number of deer) and habitat/ amount of food. There is a reason why midwest properties can hold a hundred deer per square mile with no problem while still producing huge bucks.

A lot of does and a lot of pine trees with some annual foodplots is the reason why I think black belt area of Alabama is nothing like it used to be. In other words as others have said it's strictly a food to deer ratio issue. More food= being able to have more healthy does= more buck fawns and in turn healthy mature bucks. Not as much food means you need to kill more does which means less bucks but gives the mature bucks the nutrition opportunities they need. just my opinion
 
With over-populated deer herds, reducing herd density will increase the performance of the remaining deer. However, the over-population must be fairly significant before herd reduction produces significant improvements in the remaining deer. Most hunters would never notice the subtle average improvements over time reducing the density of a herd not experiencing severe nutritional stress would produce.

Right now, just a few years post-EHD die-off, I doubt many deer herds in TN are significantly over-populated. However, just prior to the EHD outbreak I was seriously concerned by the signs of nutritional stress I was seeing, and a very close eye will have to be kept on the currently rebounding deer populations. I don't want to sound like I'm saying "hunters are stupid," but I promise you that very few hunters would ever notice the early warning signs of impending over-population. Most educated hunters could quickly identify the tell-tale browse lines of a truly over-populated herd, but few will notice the earliest signs of deer over-population, and even in the earliest stages, nutritional stress is occurring. Not to the point of serious health risks, but herd performance is being affected.
 
BSK said:
...very few hunters would ever notice the early warning signs of impending over-population. Most educated hunters could quickly identify the tell-tale browse lines of a truly over-populated herd, but few will notice the earliest signs of deer over-population, and even in the earliest stages, nutritional stress is occurring. Not to the point of serious health risks, but herd performance is being affected.

With that said, what are the earliest warning signs of over population?

Also, what are the "tale tale" browse signs you're refering to?
 
Buk-n-d0eHntn said:
BSK said:
...very few hunters would ever notice the early warning signs of impending over-population. Most educated hunters could quickly identify the tell-tale browse lines of a truly over-populated herd, but few will notice the earliest signs of deer over-population, and even in the earliest stages, nutritional stress is occurring. Not to the point of serious health risks, but herd performance is being affected.

With that said, what are the earliest warning signs of over population?

Also, what are the "tale tale" browse signs you're refering to?

I'm pretty sure that the browse signs he's referring to could be found along deer trails and edges. If the majority of plants along the majority of your trails and edges have been eaten back more than 3 inches during the summer months, you have a problem. Normal browse would only take the young, fresh growth on the end of limbs, and all of them wouldn't be damaged.
Basically if it looks like someone took a weed eater to all of the vegetation from your chest down over a large area, you need to thin the herd.
 
Buk-n-d0eHntn said:
BSK said:
...very few hunters would ever notice the early warning signs of impending over-population. Most educated hunters could quickly identify the tell-tale browse lines of a truly over-populated herd, but few will notice the earliest signs of deer over-population, and even in the earliest stages, nutritional stress is occurring. Not to the point of serious health risks, but herd performance is being affected.


With that said, what are the earliest warning signs of over population?

Also, what are the "tale tale" browse signs you're refering to?

The "tell-tale" signs of over-population is the classic browse-line, where everything a deer can eat below 5 feet off the ground is gone. This produces an obvious "line" 5-feet high, below which virtually nothing is growing. Below is a picture of a severe browse-line. Notice how there are no branches or leaves below a given line above the ground (although this particular browse-line was caused by sheep over-grazing [Blenheim Palace, Oxfordshire, England]):

browseline3.jpg



Now most deer-caused browse-lines aren't that obvious, but they can be nearly so in the most over-populated deer herds.

Most deer-caused browse-lines are not so obvious, and many hunters will miss them. How many hunters would automatically notice the browse-line in this picture taken during one of the peak browse growth months?

browseline1.jpg


Even though the above picture is in a full-canopy forest, sunlight can be seen on the ground, but nothing is growing. That's because deer are eating almost everything that sprouts. The 5-foot high browse-line is also evident in the existing understory.


Early signs of over-browsing, that just about everybody misses, is over-utilization of preferred food sources in late winter. The below picture display Japanese honeysuckle vine in late winter. Notice how few green leaves there are on this evergreen plant below my hand. Also notice the vine (growing through a shrub) is in full sunlight. Although there is no obvious browse-line in this environment, a browse-line beginning to develop on the most preferred food sources in winter is an early warning sign of impending over-population:

browseline4.jpg
 
McNasty said:
There are a lot of people in my area that are convinced that the more does you shoot the bigger your bucks get. That only works if there is insufficient food to go around or if your buck to doe ratio is so insanely out of whack that the bucks run themselves to death trying to get the ladies bred. I shoot does when I have a reason to. The reason might be that I want meat, I want to try out a new bullet or broadhead, or maybe one just pisses me off. So far, I've seen nothing in my area that would indicate that we are close to or over carrying capacity, so I don't really buy into the "shoot more does for management purposes" doctrine at this point. Rather than shooting does that I don't need, I try to provide more and better food sources so that I can increase the carrying capacity and reduce stress on the herd during the winter months.


And its very obvious most tn hunters agree with this, right now there is over 74,000 bucks shot and only 49,000 does!! There is not a deer manager in this country that will tell you thats good deer manangement. This is bad for our current deer herd and especially bad for the deer herd of years to come. Any hunter that speaks the terms QDM,trophy,big bucks, or meat for the freezer should strive for a 50\50 harvest. If you harvest a buck, shoot a doe to better balance the herd. Deer management is soley on the hands of hunters,.. it is our job to keep the population at a safe carrying capacity for today, and tomorrows hunters!!

Tn doe harvest has been on the decline the past 3 years, despite the addition of more unit L counties and increased doe oppurtunity in other counties,.. Now i'm not saying shoot every doe you see, unless you have sufficient data saying you have a herd over capacity,just strive to keep it 50/50. That alone will do more for deer management than any other thing you can do,.. including adding more food sources!!
 
Interesting numbers deerchaser007. I will be curious to see the buck-doe harvest breakdown for all three Units. Unit B should have a low doe harvest as the state is trying in increase the deer population there.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top