Problem switching from black powder to 777

[BSK]

Just wondering if anyone else ever experienced this problem. About 10 years ago my brother switched from using Goex FFFg powder to 777. All of us in the family who shoot FFFg clean our guns with T/C No. 13 bore cleaner and then season the barrels with T/C Bore Butter. When my brother first shot 777 out of his Bore Butter seasoned barrel, the combination (we suspect) with the Bore Butter and black powder usage produced a thick black tar-like substance in his barrel that was a nightmare to clean out. Many, many soakings in a tank of soapy water and brass brush cleanings were required to defoul the barrel. However, once it was cleaned, and my brother resumed shooting 777 (and no longer used Bore Butter), no problems at all. Barrel cleans out with a single patch.

Has anyone else experienced this or heard of this? His experiences have me extremely hesitant to switch to 777 in my inline that has shot FFFg for almost 20 years. I'm thinking I would rather start from scratch with a new barrel before using 777. Any thoughts?

 

[backyardtndeer]

Swab out the bore butter before shooting.

 

[MUP]

Swab out the bore butter before shooting.

Definitely, if you didn't before. Start with a cleaned down to bare metal bore is what I would recommend as well.

 

[BSK]

Definitely, if you didn't before. Start with a cleaned down to bare metal bore is what I would recommend as well.

How would you clean bore butter that has seasoned into barrel? We always clean barrels with No. 13 bore cleaner wet patches and then dry patches before shooting.

 

[MUP]

How would you clean bore butter that has seasoned into barrel? We always clean barrels with No. 13 bore cleaner wet patches and then dry patches before shooting.

Sounds like you did. I would clean it like I had just shot it a few times and it needed a good cleaning, then dry patch a couple of times then load and try it.

 

[Smo]

I had similar issues with Pyrodex and bore butter lubed conicals back in the early - mid 80's….
The Pyrodex burned so hot it seemed too" season" the bore butter / lead combination into the rifling….
I think there was bees wax in the "Buffalo Bullets " back during that time….

Anyway, it would create a carbon like build up that hot soapy water wouldn't touch…

After that I've always just shot Goex or Swiss powder..
As long as you clean the gun after use , I haven't had any issues..
As said above always start with a clean barrel…
I swab with 91% alcohol prior too loading.

 

[Wobblyshot1]

I suspect you probably have something there with high burn temp of the substitute powders. If my memory serves me right Triple 7 has a very high burn temperature. According to Bill Knight aka "Mad Monk" this high temp ignition and heavy charges is the cause of 777's infamous crud ring. The temps upon ignition are high enough to glass over any surrounding residue and fuse it to the barrel wall.... very difficult to remove. His solution was to back off from heavy charges that modern day deer hunters are prone to use and be content with a milder charge. Unless, of course, you don't mind dealing with the crud ring.

 

[Smo]

Your memory and mine are much the same…

Probably not the same formula bore butter used on various components these days.

 

[BSK]

Sounds like you did. I would clean it like I had just shot it a few times and it needed a good cleaning, then dry patch a couple of times then load and try it.

But my brother had done that, and his barrel fouled so badly when shooting 777 the first time he almost had to buy a new one.

 

[BSK]

I suspect you probably have something there with high burn temp of the substitute powders. If my memory serves me right Triple 7 has a very high burn temperature. According to Bill Knight aka "Mad Monk" this high temp ignition and heavy charges is the cause of 777's infamous crud ring. The temps upon ignition are high enough to glass over any surrounding residue and fuse it to the barrel wall.... very difficult to remove. His solution was to back off from heavy charges that modern day deer hunters are prone to use and be content with a milder charge. Unless, of course, you don't mind dealing with the crud ring.

That's very interesting, especially about the lower charges. I keep hearing guys talk about the "crud ring" from 777, but my brother has never experienced that once he got the initial Goex/Bore Butter/777 crud out. His MZ is the cleanest-shooting MZ I've ever seen. Even after a couple shots, a dry patch just pulls out a little grey dust. No crud ring. But then he's only shooting about 80 grns of 777.

In fact, the reason I would like to switch to 777 is because of the ease of cleaning (and the fact Goex is getting so hard to find).

 

[MUP]

But my brother had done that, and his barrel fouled so badly when shooting 777 the first time he almost had to buy a new one.

That's just very strange, unless as wobbly and smo just said, the high temp blast, and the microscopic bore butter still in the barrel, had such a fusion reaction that it caused the high temp chemical reaction that literally welded the carbon to the steel. I've never used bore butter so I've never experienced such a reaction.

 

[Smo]

I ruined two barrels with it trying too clean it out with only hot soapy water…
Carburetor cleaner may have worked, but I never tried it…

It got too where you could barely see the rifling in the barrel….

 

[BSK]

I think I'll wait until I can get a new inline. Mine is pretty old, but it's just so darn good. But with Goex getting hard to find, and the pain of cleaning black-powder...

 

[TheLBLman]

. . . . the reason I would like to switch to 777 is because of the ease of cleaning (and the fact Goex is getting so hard to find).

Why not just go to BH209?
It's cleaner than 777.

 

[BSK]

Why not just go to BH209?
It's cleaner than 777.

The cost. And from what I've seen, 777 - when fired at lower volumes - is incredibly clean. Just one wet patch and one dry patch. All that's in the barrel is a little grey dust.

 

[MUP]

I've shot BH 209 over 20 times without having to clean my barrel. And when you do clean it you use the same solvents as you clean your rifles with. It's definitely worth considering IMO.

 

[Andy S.]

^^^^ Ditto!

 

[CHRIS WILSON]

The cost. And from what I've seen, 777 - when fired at lower volumes - is incredibly clean. Just one wet patch and one dry patch. All that's in the barrel is a little grey dust.

Nothing wrong with 777. Still use it in my Optima. In the .45 caliber Knight, I do use Blackhorn. The fouling with Blackhorn is much, much finer than what 777 produces. It makes shooting sabotless much easier as far as getting that second bullet down the barrel.