Predator Problems???

[Football Hunter]

Saw this while I was visiting family in SC.56% seems high to me,but I guess SCDNR has good scientists .What do ya'll think?


I haven't seen a coyote on my place in almost 2 years,but Ive sure seen their tracks in the snow,I was blown away when I went out a year or 2 ago in the snow,yote tracks were everywhere.

 

[catman529]

Seems a bit exaggerated to me, I wouldn't blame the deer decrease on yotes, I'd blame it on SC not managing the herd well and/or disease

 

[pass-thru]

they have studied it fairly extensively and I don't doubt that the 30% drop can largely be attributed to coyotes. I would be very surprised if they kill anywhere near 30k coyotes a year.

To some extent this is karma. The same dudes hauling coyotes in to run with dogs are probably some of the ones upset about no deer. One of the biggest environmental travesties of this country is how we have spread invasives all over the place.

 

[Vermin93]

Are Coyotes Killing Deer?

 

[Planking]

To some extent this is karma. The same dudes hauling coyotes in to run with dogs are probably some of the ones upset about no deer. One of the biggest environmental travesties of this country is how we have spread invasives all over the place.

Well said. I read on the CDC's website the other night that there is a good theory that the h1n1 virus in the U.S came from breeding North American domestic pigs and Eurasian pigs (aka wild hogs).

 

[BSK]

Saw this while I was visiting family in SC.56% seems high to me,but I guess SCDNR has good scientists .What do ya'll think?

Results of studies on coyote predation of fawns are all over the place. In some locations, coyote predation on fawns is so severe that I question killing any does by hunting. Continued harvest of adult does is going to reduce deer populations significantly. Most of these severe predation study findings come from the Deep South, especially SC, AL, and MS. In a few of these studies, fawn mortality due to coyote predation approached 80%.

On the other hand, studies conducted more towards the Midwest indicate less severe coyote predation, some low enough to consider coyote predation far below the level of a critical consideration.

I haven't seen a coyote on my place in almost 2 years...

What about trail-cam pictures? Your place isn't far from mine, and the number of coyote pictures I get is shocking. In some years, I get as many coyote pictures as I do deer pictures. And our local fawn recruitment is quite poor. However, I'm not sure the poor fawn recruitment is purely a function of coyote predation.

One interesting thing about the number of pictures I get of coyotes is how much they fluctuate over time. It seems as if the coyote population (at least locally) goes through fairly dramatic highs and lows over short time spans. I'll see a huge number of coyotes for a year or two, and then suddenly the population drops to extremely low numbers for a year or two, then back to huge numbers again. I have no idea if this is indicative of "real" changes in population (boom and bust population trend), or this is more a function of very long range animal movement.

 

[DaveB]

From experience out west if food exists coyotes will not leave an area unless they are pressured via hunters/trappers. That pressure has to be killing or trapping. Human presence won't make them leave an area that has food.

BSK is there any organized effort on your property to eradicate the coyote's? For everyone, come early spring is the time and trapping is more efficient than shooting (not nearly as much fun though). And trapping needs to be widespread and intensive-not 5 or 10 traps but many more all on the same day. They get wise really quick.

 

[Atchman2]

I don't know how you would get that many traps out (unless the property is huge) without the same issues you have with deer. I'm probably naive though regarding trapping as I'm purely a total noob. I have set traps for coyotes though on smaller properties, but without success.

What I mean is spreading scent around the traps. The coyotes are very sensitive to human scent just like deer. So if you tromp all over the place won't that make them wary of the traps? I'd think a few selected spots would be better such as field edges, near game trails, near suspected dens, etc.

 

[Mike Belt]

Coyotes will wreak havoc on fawns and although they can and do kill older deer during the course of the year, their primary meat food source during the year are rodents; especially rabbits. If you have an increase in that food source you will have an increase in the coyote population. When that food source diminishes the coyote population will follow.

 

[hcdeerman]

About 3 years ago my deer and turkey sightings were at an all-time low on one of my properties (Zero on the turkey side). I talked to a local trapper I had met through work and he came to trap my land after deer season at no charge in exchange for the fur. After 5 days of trapping resulting in 5 coyotes, 2 bobcats, and 1 wild dog I was blown away. Last year's trapping resulted in 3 coyotes, 3 bobcats, and 2 foxes over a 1 1/2 week span. Needless to say, my deer and turkey populations have more than rebounded! I still see lots of predator tracks, but I feel things are on a lot more even keel now. I would suggest asking a TWRA officer in your area if they can put you in touch with a local trapper if you have concerns with your predator population.

 

[DaveB]

Coyotes won't leave a food source because of human scent, look at gutpile pic's. If they see you they won't leave. You may think they do but food is what keeps them nailed to an area. You have to start killing them. That gets their attention really quick, which is why you need to cover an area very thoroughly with traps and why sport hunting is not a solution. Lets say you trap just the north 40 of BSK's 500. You'll get a few and the rest will learn trap avoidance.

Start shooting and you'll get a few and the rest will stop responding to the call. This is one reason for the elctronic calls, the ability have multiple different sounds. Mouth calls you have one maybe two choices and they definitely learn not to respond.

If you have ever called coyote's surely you have noticed that most are on a dead run towards the sound? They are trying to get to the food source before their buddy. Smart ones will circle, be more stealthy they pinpoint you and the noise, put them together, and that's it for that coyote until he becomes an accidental kill.

I gained access to deer hunt a California property by killing coyotes, ground squirrels, and pigs. After a few attempts to skin and eat wild hogs, I started just leaving them where they lay as coyote bait. Amazing to me they learned a dead pig was not food in the daytime PDQ. Any I killed over a pig were young, frequently really young.

 

[BSK]

BSK is there any organized effort on your property to eradicate the coyote's? For everyone, come early spring is the time and trapping is more efficient than shooting (not nearly as much fun though). And trapping needs to be widespread and intensive-not 5 or 10 traps but many more all on the same day. They get wise really quick.

DaveB,

I ABSOLUTELY agree that if a hunter/manager believe coyotes are a serious problem, they should make efforts to reduce the population. In addition, I agree that late spring (just before fawning) is the best time (BGG has some interesting data on this), and that trapping is FAR more effective than shooting.

But no, we make no effort towards predator control, simply because I don't believe coyotes are limiting what we want out of our hunting experience. But if I did believe that, I would make every effort to reduce their population. Now I do believe predators are limiting our fawn production, and possibly significantly, but not to the point it is reducing our adult deer population.

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

Here is a link to an article about what some think coyotes are doing to the deer herds.

http://www.huntingclub.com/straight-fac ... eer-herds/

I have to wonder if after the EHD of 2007, if increased coyotes numbers are the reason the deer numbers haven't got back to 2006 levels. And that may not be a bad thing for some areas.

 

[BSK]

I have to wonder if after the EHD of 2007, if increased coyotes numbers are the reason the deer numbers haven't got back to 2006 levels. And that may not be a bad thing for some areas.

As was mentioned in another thread, I don't know what is so different, but having collected detailed local deer herd parameters for many years in TN, through several EHD outbreaks, something different happened after the '07 outbreak. The deer herds haven't been the same since. Many blame the increased coyote populations, and they may be right. However, in my area, we've always had very high coyote populations, even during earlier EHD outbreaks, like in 2001. But the local deer population bounced right back within 2 years of the 2001 outbreak, just like most deer populations do after experiencing an EHD die-off.

To me, "what happened after the '07 die-offs" is one of the great unanswered mysteries of TN deer management.

 

[TheLBLman]

To me, "what happened after the '07 die-offs" is one of the great unanswered mysteries of TN deer management.

Might I suggest your immediate neighbor's continued misguided "earn-a-buck" program?

 

[Winchester]

To me, "what happened after the '07 die-offs" is one of the great unanswered mysteries of TN deer management.

Might I suggest your immediate neighbor's continued misguided "earn-a-buck" program?

No earn a buck programs anywhere near me and I agree 07 was a turning point that stood things on their ear! I cant even begin to explain it or give any answers but things haven't been the same since???

 

[TheLBLman]

The '07 ehd "die-offs" didn't seem to effect my hunting areas much, even though areas a few miles away were hard hit. I don't profess to have the answers, but do believe the neighbor's "earn-a-buck" program is part of it at BSK's place, and that policy has damaged the resource far beyond that neighbor's property lines, assuming we still consider free-roaming deer as belonging to everyone.

 

[BSK]

To me, "what happened after the '07 die-offs" is one of the great unanswered mysteries of TN deer management.

Might I suggest your immediate neighbor's continued misguided "earn-a-buck" program?

I'm not talking about just my place Wes. Every property I have data for saw a major change in herd "mathematics" since '07. And by that, I mean herd growth and reproductive processes that worked close to textbook prior to '07 no longer do.

 

[TheLBLman]

Were all those properties hard hit by ehd in '07?

 

[TheLBLman]

Just a personal observation, but it does seem to me that coyotes have become more focused on hunting deer. But then, they also seem more focused on hunting turkeys, as do bald eagles. May just be an evolving of recognizing opportunity?

It would seem plausible that areas hard hit by ehd would suffer worse from predation in the subsequent years?

 

[DaveB]

BSK-
not trying to irk you here. If you have predators that are hurting fawn recruitment, just not enough to move you into action, well, that surprises me. The coyotes would leave or die if they are actively trapped with results: recruitment improves, harvest goals modified, a different, maybe better, hunting experience.

Because of your experience and knowledge of your own property you have an opportunity to determine coyote depredation impacts. Apply knowledge guided by experience and go after them. Then do normal fawn recruitment studies. Compare currrent and prior years and see if a statistical exception exists, that is, outside the std deviation.

Right now, I'm wagering $100.00 to your favorite charity the results will surpise you.

 

[BSK]

Were all those properties hard hit by ehd in '07?

Some minimally, some seriously. Those closest to Nashville were hit the worst. The only properties hit super hard in the Highland Rim area were those with swampy ground or lots of small ponds.

And here's the crazy part, many of those hit minimally did not see major differences in the herd during the '07 hunting season, AFTER the die-off was over. But in the next few years, really troubling numbers began to appear. Almost a "delayed reaction."

 

[TheLBLman]

The only properties hit super hard in the Highland Rim area were those with swampy ground or lots of small ponds.

Very logical expectations.
All my hunting property in the Highland Rim (of Stewart Co.) has a few small ponds (would not say "lots"), but almost no swampy ground. Do have some year-round flowing spring-fed creeks (which may have been a primary factor minimizing the '07 ehd).

If anything, we have had an increase rather than a stable or decreasing coyote population, yet I believe our deer density may be at a high (greatly hidden by an over-abundance of cover habitat which was also the prime food habitat this past deer season). I believe the coyotes feast mainly on field mice & rats, plus lots of rabbits. But they are opportunists feeders, and I'm sure deer entrails and road kill have provided much of their winter food items.

 

[BSK]

The only properties hit super hard in the Highland Rim area were those with swampy ground or lots of small ponds.

Very logical expectations.
All my hunting property in the Highland Rim (of Stewart Co.) has a few small ponds (would not say "lots"), but almost no swampy ground. Do have some year-round flowing spring-fed creeks (which may have been a primary factor minimizing the '07 ehd).

Although I know of no research confirming or denying my theory, I found it VERY interesting that those ridge-and-hollow terrain properties that only had tumbling rocky creeks, but no stagnant water, saw very minimal die-offs. None of those properties experienced die-offs that I believe exceeded 15% of the population (which most hunters/managers wouldn't even notice).

 

[TheLBLman]

During the late summer and early fall of '07, I went out weekly searching every pond for dead deer. This was over several square miles. I did not find a single deer in water, and only found one dead deer that I suspected MIGHT have died from ehd. I did have one trail cam photo of a sickly looking deer in Sept, but no damaged hooves were noted with with the harvested deer.

I can't say we have no stagnant water, as all of the ponds are small and without current. But I can say all the deer in my "searched" area were within 1 1/2 miles of three significant year-round flowing spring-fed creeks (some of which have numerous spring-fed feeder creeks). On 2nd thought, most of these deer would have been within 3/4 mile of at least a spring-fed feeder creek with year-round flow.

Go figure.

 

[BSK]

BSK-
not trying to irk you here. If you have predators that are hurting fawn recruitment, just not enough to move you into action, well, that surprises me. The coyotes would leave or die if they are actively trapped with results: recruitment improves, harvest goals modified, a different, maybe better, hunting experience.

Because of your experience and knowledge of your own property you have an opportunity to determine coyote depredation impacts. Apply knowledge guided by experience and go after them. Then do normal fawn recruitment studies. Compare currrent and prior years and see if a statistical exception exists, that is, outside the std deviation.

Right now, I'm wagering $100.00 to your favorite charity the results will surpise you.

Not an irk-worthy question at all DaveB! ;) In fact, an excellent question. And I think the answer has much to do with my age. In my younger years I would have aggressively pursued any management option I believed would increase hunting opportunity or enjoyment. However, I've mellowed over the years. I now take a little more of a "lighter hand" approach.

When it comes to the question of impact of coyote predation, I have no doubt they are having some impact. And to be honest, that's OK with me. Biologically, what's the difference between a coyote killing and eating a deer, or me killing and eating that deer? We're both predators and we both have an equal "right" to kill and eat deer.

Now if coyote predation was preventing me from being able to hunt/kill/eat deer--coyotes were killing so many deer that further removal of adults through hunting was not sustainable--THEN I would drop the hammer on them. Until that point, I'll let Nature take her course, even if that means a decade or so of "rebalancing" of the predator-prey relationship.

A further reason I'm hesitant to go after the coyote population is the level of impact they are having. I'm not convinced they are the reason we've seen very poor fawn recruitment since the '07 EHD outbreak. On my place, I've observed very high coyote populations from the first years I ran trail-cams, back in the late 80s and early 90s. Back when we first bought the property in the late 70s the number of coyote packs howling at sunset was a tad frightening. I don't see more coyotes on cam or hear more howling now than then. And up until the '07 outbreak, we ran extremely high fawn recruitment rates, even with less food and cover than we have now. I'm not convinced it is JUST coyotes causing our very low fawn recruitment rates. In addition, I have clients where coyotes on camera are fairly rare, but ever since '07, they too have experienced very poor fawn recruitment, even with phenomenal habitat resources.

But to know for sure, I would need to do exactly as you suggested--hammer them appropriately one year and then watch what type of herd response I get. I definitely collect enough data to clearly display any change that might occur.

 

[TheLBLman]

BSK,

Just trying to do a little more thinking "outside the box".

Do you think our focus on killing 2 1/2 & older doe may have an impact on the fawn recruitment, as perhaps the younger females just aren't as good at "mothering" as these older females?

 

[BSK]

BSK,

Just trying to do a little more thinking "outside the box".

Do you think our focus on killing 2 1/2 & older doe may have an impact on the fawn recruitment, as perhaps the younger females just aren't as good at "mothering" as these older females?

Honestly Wes, my mind is wide open about this problem. Maybe it really is coyotes. But maybe it is something completely different; something we've never considered.

 

[TheLBLman]

Perhaps . . . . . . it is Bigfoot.
Sasquatch prefers tender fawn venison.

 

[BSK]

Perhaps . . . . . . it is Bigfoot.
Sasquatch prefers tender fawn venison.

Dang. That's the worst news yet, because Bigfoot hunters have told me Bigfeet (is that the correct plural?) can "feel" trail-cameras, and will avoid them--that's why they never get their pictures taken. So I can't track my local Bigfoot population... ;)