After getting back into deer hunting 3 years ago, I've finally decided to get a smoke pole again. Man, have they changed!! So I bought a optima. I know it's supposed to hold a magnum, 150 grains of powder. But when I looked at the box of white hot pellets I got, they say only 2 pellets at a time. Any use in shooting the extra 50? Will the gun handle it? Thanks.
Powder question
- Thread starter JBell
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Why would you want to use one of the weakest yet most expensive of propellants? 100gr equivalent of White Hots is far slower than 100grV of Triple7 powder or Blackhorn209. You get 36 shots from a pack of White Hots if using 2 pellets for around $25. You get over 60 shots using BH209 for around $37 AND get higher velocity. You would get even more if you used just enough BH209 (80-85grV) to match the speed of 2 White hots. Roughly twice as many shots as White Hots.
On top of cost you wont need to swab and have far less chance of corrosion. You have no ability to fine tune a load with pellets especially with White Hots. They are only offered in 50gr equivalent.
But yes according to CVA you can use 3 pellets. According to IMR you can not. IMR/Hodgdon know very well 3 pellets can easily exceed 30kpsi and much higher if pellets get crushed. Using BH209 with a max 120grV load you will never come close to 30kpsi even with a 350gr bullet.
On top of cost you wont need to swab and have far less chance of corrosion. You have no ability to fine tune a load with pellets especially with White Hots. They are only offered in 50gr equivalent.
But yes according to CVA you can use 3 pellets. According to IMR you can not. IMR/Hodgdon know very well 3 pellets can easily exceed 30kpsi and much higher if pellets get crushed. Using BH209 with a max 120grV load you will never come close to 30kpsi even with a 350gr bullet.
Well, like most things in life, I thought I was getting what I paid for. Assuming it was a better/cleaner product since it was a little pricier. Shot a few rounds today and man that stuff was dirty!! You seem to be extremely educated in this, so I will ask your personal opinion. What would you use? i currently have the 250 grain power belt aerolites too. Some chances at longer range where I hunt. But still wouldn't push over 200.
Southern Sportsman
Well-Known Member
JBell":iu1l1osj said:
Just pre-measure your charges. I weigh mine out on a powder scale for precision, load them in these little tubes, and I'm set for the season.
Also, I wish when I started muzzleloading someone had told me how bad powerbelts sucked.
iowavf
Well-Known Member
What you have will work, but there's better stuff out there to use. I started out shooting pyrodex pellets and powerbelts because they were about the only thing around here when I bought my ML. Switched to 777 pellets which was better, still shot the powerbelts for a couple more years, then tried the SST Hornady bullets, and finally switched to Barnes Exspander with harvester crushed rib sabots. Went to Blackhorn when it came out and short of going smokeless, best setup I've found to use in my Encore. I weigh my loads also and have several of the speed loader tubes for the powder and a couple that holds bullets and sabots.
As mentioned, just measure or weigh out the charges at home. Put them in the tubes. I use a MTM shotshell tray in a range box to carry mine.
This setup is about $9 plus shipping for 50 10ml tubes and tray. https://www.pittmanbullets.com/shooting-accessories/
Blackhorn powder though should be used with the CVA or Western BH209 breach plug. So thats an additional cost of over $30. Check with Eds Gunshop in Vass NC. Ask for Carlos.
I would use Blackhorn209 for sure. Its cleaner than any other sub and far less corrosive. You will need a powder measure and a spout for the bottle. That should be around $15 for both....Again ask Carlos what he has.
I would start out with the Harvester SMOOTH black sabot for upto a 300gr bullet. That sabot is known to be a good fit in the CVAs...usually
I would get some 45cal 300gr XTPs (NON MAG) just because they are cheap and will work just fine for deer. Also because you are getting so close to the season. You can shop around for better bullets later.
This setup is about $9 plus shipping for 50 10ml tubes and tray. https://www.pittmanbullets.com/shooting-accessories/
Blackhorn powder though should be used with the CVA or Western BH209 breach plug. So thats an additional cost of over $30. Check with Eds Gunshop in Vass NC. Ask for Carlos.
I would use Blackhorn209 for sure. Its cleaner than any other sub and far less corrosive. You will need a powder measure and a spout for the bottle. That should be around $15 for both....Again ask Carlos what he has.
I would start out with the Harvester SMOOTH black sabot for upto a 300gr bullet. That sabot is known to be a good fit in the CVAs...usually
I would get some 45cal 300gr XTPs (NON MAG) just because they are cheap and will work just fine for deer. Also because you are getting so close to the season. You can shop around for better bullets later.
Just wanna start off by saying thanks for all of the help. 2 more questions have risen though. Do I have to change my breech plug for the bh209 powder? It's kinda worded like the cva's are ok. 2nd question is why would I buy 45cal bullets for a 50 cal gun??
45 cal bullet in a 50cal ML would be used with a Sabot.
If you've already bought powder and bullets as in your 1st post. Play with what you have, even try 1 pellet. I doubt you can shoot to 200yds reliably with any given load until you spend time at the range experimenting. Yes, loose power will allow you to vary charges to see what your gun likes, bullet weights may also have a large impact on accuracy.
I would suggest you wipe between shots to ease the fouling for the next load.
Enjoy your new ML.
If you've already bought powder and bullets as in your 1st post. Play with what you have, even try 1 pellet. I doubt you can shoot to 200yds reliably with any given load until you spend time at the range experimenting. Yes, loose power will allow you to vary charges to see what your gun likes, bullet weights may also have a large impact on accuracy.
I would suggest you wipe between shots to ease the fouling for the next load.
Enjoy your new ML.
iowavf
Well-Known Member
A bucket of water will work on a fire, but I'd rather have a fire extinguisher instead.451LRML":2zl2td52 said:
Southern Sportsman
Well-Known Member
451LRML":37ef04t0 said:
They've killed a lot of deer over the years. That particular deer does't make the bullets any better in quality. Patched round balls have killed a lot of deer too, but there are better options available.
Heck, I could never get them to group to ever even try them on a hunt.
Yea, I get the bullet situation now. Just never knew it was actually a 45cal bullet inside the sabot. Gonna get a breech plug and try the bh209 powder. Gonna pick up some better quality bullets too. Thanks guys. Will post report when I get her driving tacks. Thanks guys
I highly suggest you get this sabot and use it with whatever 45cal bullet you choose. Grafs has the best price but i think Cabelas also sells them for a couple dollars more.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pr ... uctId/5481
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/ ... ess-bullet
You can order the Western BH209 plug directly from Western Powders if needed. It is slightly different (primer pocket mainly) than the CVA BH209 plug and has everything you need to install and clean it. You only use the tool the FIRST TIME you install it. Crank it down tight with the tool then break it loose. NOW you can just use your fingers.
https://www.westernpowders.com/blackhor ... uct_id=147
There are actually sabots for 44cal bullet too. Typically they are green. Some people like them but ive had far better luck getting 45cals to shoot with the least amount of headaches. Harvester offers those is a SMOOTH green also. I would avoid the Harvester Crushrib sabots until you try the Smooth sabots.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/pr ... uctId/5481
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/ ... ess-bullet
You can order the Western BH209 plug directly from Western Powders if needed. It is slightly different (primer pocket mainly) than the CVA BH209 plug and has everything you need to install and clean it. You only use the tool the FIRST TIME you install it. Crank it down tight with the tool then break it loose. NOW you can just use your fingers.
https://www.westernpowders.com/blackhor ... uct_id=147
There are actually sabots for 44cal bullet too. Typically they are green. Some people like them but ive had far better luck getting 45cals to shoot with the least amount of headaches. Harvester offers those is a SMOOTH green also. I would avoid the Harvester Crushrib sabots until you try the Smooth sabots.
Mike Belt
Well-Known Member
The Power Belt bullets shot great in my rifle and I killed every deer I took a shot at. In case you didn't know and for the most part, the objection to them is that you don't get a pass through most of the time. Without that, and if the deer runs off dead on his feet, they may never leave a blood trail. No blood trail = possibly no recovery. For that reason I switched over to the bullets I shoot now which happen to be Barnes. They aren't quite as accurate in my rifle but devastating on deer.
Southern Sportsman
Well-Known Member
JBell":2kmdbdwp said:
I still shoot loose 777 powder. I was shooting it before BH209 came out and had my setup all nailed down, and havent switched. But get some Barns bullets.
GMB54 you cant use 1 sabot with just any 45 cal bullet,barrel's are all different sizes and the bullets may be also,never lost a deer to a power belt but have read of many deer lost with every thing under the sun.take shots into the heart/lung area and stay away from large bones. accuracy plays a big roll on killing a deer as much or more as the bullet imo,muzzle loaders are great and I carry mine a lot during rifle season,we don't normally have a chance to shoot more than 1 deer at a time so I don't feel under gunned,hope you have a great season and weighing your loads with a scale will make your shots more consistent at ranges over 100y,I have burned a lot of powder measuring by volume and it amazing how far off the loads will be from each other if you cked them with a scale,velocity is king the farther you shoot and each shot needs to be as close as you can get it to improve accuracy
The Harvester "smooth short black" is a known performer for numerous CVA owners with numerous bullets. It is THE sabot to try first in that bore. The Optima and Wolf bores tend to run slightly tight but not tight enough to need a Crushrib or MMP 3P-EZ.
Its also one of the least expensive so why waste money?
Ive never heard of a 300gr XTP failing to kill a deer. Never heard of one grenading at smoker speeds. Ive heard of countless Powerbelt failures. Its cheap and works. They were killing deer before Powerbelts were even a thought and you get 50 shots for the price of 15 Powerbelts.
You can get a 300gr Deep Curl for only a few bucks more than the XTP and its a killing machine. $23/50 bullets at MidwayUSA....$19/50 at Grafs. I suggested the XTP because they are easy to find. Deep Curls get hard to find sometimes and ive seen them out of stock for over a year.
110gr BH209...Flawless performance for a bullet thats under 50cents each.
I weigh all my BH209 loads but i have the luxury of a RCBS Chargemaster 1500 Combo. A cheaper option is the Redding 3BR for rifles but its volumetric so you need a scale to get it setup. MANY of the top shooters at Friendship actually use volumetric with BH209. Just ask the Fisks who have won many times. Weight to volume can and does vary quite a bit from lot to lot of BH209....Probably not enough for many hunters but if you want to talk about long range then it can be a problem.
Its also one of the least expensive so why waste money?
Ive never heard of a 300gr XTP failing to kill a deer. Never heard of one grenading at smoker speeds. Ive heard of countless Powerbelt failures. Its cheap and works. They were killing deer before Powerbelts were even a thought and you get 50 shots for the price of 15 Powerbelts.
You can get a 300gr Deep Curl for only a few bucks more than the XTP and its a killing machine. $23/50 bullets at MidwayUSA....$19/50 at Grafs. I suggested the XTP because they are easy to find. Deep Curls get hard to find sometimes and ive seen them out of stock for over a year.
110gr BH209...Flawless performance for a bullet thats under 50cents each.
I weigh all my BH209 loads but i have the luxury of a RCBS Chargemaster 1500 Combo. A cheaper option is the Redding 3BR for rifles but its volumetric so you need a scale to get it setup. MANY of the top shooters at Friendship actually use volumetric with BH209. Just ask the Fisks who have won many times. Weight to volume can and does vary quite a bit from lot to lot of BH209....Probably not enough for many hunters but if you want to talk about long range then it can be a problem.
JBell":2t5jiqip said:
You dont have to pay top shelf price for some very good bullets. Its a good idea to get it shooting respectable groups with some cheaper bullets before sending a bunch of $1+ bullet down range.
Lehigh offers a 265gr, 240gr and 230gr Control Fracture for around 88 cents each. They are solid copper like Barnes but they react differently on impact. The petals fracture instead of a mushroom.
My all time favorite for less recoil and excellent performance is either the 250gr Barnes Expander MZ aka 250gr XPB and the 225gr XPB made for 45LC. The XPBs are just the centerfire versions of the Expander MZ. Sometimes you can buy them for less than the Expanders. The Expander MZ comes with a HPH12 sabot IIRC which would be rather tight in a bore that .501 or less.
You just cant beat the Speer 300gr DeepCurl for the money and i doubt you would find a similar 300gr HP with a better BC. If you went to Grafs and got the sabots and bullets, you are looking at 38cents+12cents (plus $7.95 flat rate shipping) per shot for projectile. Thats under $33/50 shots for a very good bullet made for 454 Casull speeds.
HilhamHawk
Well-Known Member
I'd personally suggest you give a load of a 250 grain Hornady SST over 110 grains of BH209 a try. Every one of the last few CVA's I tried were partial to that load.
bulld
Well-Known Member
I have met few people who have found optimum accuracy with max loads, muzzleloader or modern day rifles, start low and work up for accuracy and SAFETY
Wiley
Well-Known Member
I'm getting in on this post real late but for my old Remington 700ML I found THE load to be 100gr of loose Pyrodex Select under a 300gr Barnes MZ Expander. It shoots holes touching at 100yds with this load. No combination of pellets would group better than about 4 inches at 100yds.
Here's only the 2nd 300gr MZ Expander that I've ever recovered from a deer. Check out the weight retention. Dropped the 6 point in his tracks.
Here's only the 2nd 300gr MZ Expander that I've ever recovered from a deer. Check out the weight retention. Dropped the 6 point in his tracks.
