pen raised deer

[gobblinfool]

Im watching Keith Warren's program and I have 2 questions

1. How do the bucks get so big
2. Do they have to worry about cwd

 

[TDW05]

Growth hormones and yes that's is why you have heard of CWD it usually comes from those deer.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Pen raised deer, Keith Warren, CWD concerns?

Yes.

 

[gobblinfool]

so why dont all pen raised deer die from CWD....

 

[rukiddin]

Growth hormones and yes that's is why you have heard of CWD it usually comes from those deer.

Ain't saying it don't happen but I've known a few guys in the business. They never use any kind of hormones whatsoever. It's 100% genetics and nutrition. They'll have 1-1/2 year olds breaking 190" for their first set of horns. Ain't saying I agree with it, just saying genetics are their "go to" for giant antlers.

 

[ronnycl]

kinda of like going out in my pasture and shooting yourself a prize bull....personally I don't get it, but my fence is not tall :party:

 

[gobblinfool]

What Im looking for is an answer to why pen raised deer dont die quicker if CWD was in a deer in the pen

Intent of thread was to learn....not hudge others about how they hunt....i agree, i dont see the point of high fence hunting

 

[fairchaser]

It's easier to control CWD in a pen. Once detected, they can eradicate any susceptible deer. Thus, they can keep the deer healthier than in the wild.

 

[TheLBLman]

What Im looking for is an answer to why pen raised deer dont die quicker if CWD was in a deer in the pen

If CWD is present, they will die just about as quickly as free-roaming non-captive deer.
MOST do not have CWD (else they would be dead or dying soon),
but the nationwide spread of CWD has been linked to pen-raised deer.

The MAIN reason pen-raised deer grow larger and live longer is a LACK of STRESS factors which wild free-roaming deer face daily.
It's not just being well fed. And may have little to nothing to do with hormones or genetics.

Take away the stress of being chased by dogs, hunted by man and other predators, the stress of having to burn lots of calories in merely searching for food, then compare those daily calorie burns of wild deer to what's burned daily by deer feeding from a trough while being both protected and contained in a pen.

Because wild free-roaming deer are constantly on the alert for danger (like coyotes, dogs, people, etc.) they burn more calories even when bedded than do domesticated deer in a pen (protected from those stressors). But unlike deer in a pen, when a wild deer gets hungry, it may have to travel great distances from bedding to feeding areas (may feed mainly at night), while the deer in the pen simply walks over to its feeder throughout the day & night.

It's similar to the life of a caged bird to that of the life of a wild bird.
Caged birds cannot burn many calories, and always have lots to eat, available without burning calories to find it.

With male deer, it's more the surplus of nutrition that goes to antler growth.
Survival needs are met first. Seasonal and reduced food supplies reduce antler growth.
Wild deer (because they burn more calories) NEED more nutrition to grow comparable antlers than do caged deer in a pen.
Meanwhile, deer in a pen need less but have more, so those bucks grow larger antlers.

Similar reasons a pet house cat is typically very fat compared to a wild, feral cat.

 

[TheLBLman]

In comparing antler growth of pen-raised vs. wild, free-roaming deer,
the discussion is not complete without noting the effects of hunters "high grading" the best young bucks.

What happens with "high grading" of antlers (typically anywhere deer are hunted by human hunters)
is the largest antlered YOUNGER bucks (presume those with the best antler genetics) are killed at a higher rate
than the the more average-antlered younger bucks.

The antler genetics (at birth) may be similar for a large number of male fawns.
But when hunters kill off the best antlered ones as yearlings, 2 1/2's, and 3 1/2's,
relatively none survive to the age of 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 which tend to be the ages of highest B&C score.

Meanwhile, since the hunters are more heavily targeting the larger antlered young bucks,
this is mainly leaving the below-average antlered bucks to survive to 5 1/2 & older.

This may give the appearance of poor antler genetics when the real problem is hunter-induced antler high grading,
which is exactly the opposite of the "culling" often done with pen-raised deer, as well as on some Texas ranches.
Real "culling" of small antlered bucks is typically done only on 3 1/2 & older bucks.

So, to add to all this, in the wild, the best-antlered young bucks typically get killed first (removed),
whereas with pen-raised captives, it is the worse-antlered young bucks that get removed.

Again, this may give the appearance of poor antler genetics in the wild,
when the main issue can simply be hunters removing those best antlered young bucks,
before those bucks with the best antler genetics ever have the opportunity to "express" their antler potential.

Often, due to poor nutrition and stress, antler potential doesn't approach it's genetic potential (in the wild).
Sometimes, it does.
By contrast, it nearly always approaches its potential in pen-raised bucks.

 

[gobblinfool]

Thank you!

 

[gobblinfool]

so how are pen raised deer the fault/cause of wild deer getting CWD

 

[cardia10]

Knowing farm owners in Mississippi and Texas, I would argue size is almost 100% diet and genetics. These guys will pay $1,000s for deer sperm from good stock then have animal nutritionist perfecting the diet. It is almost like raising chickens. Koch Poultry and other large companies spend millions on perfecting the bird without growth hormones, just the correct mix of feed. That is why a chicken's life span is 43 days from birth to death and gets them to 4 lbs.

 

[megalomaniac]

Its genetics no1, nutrition no2, lack of stress no3, then age no4 in that order which produces the absolute freaks that the top breeders strive for. I think they have almost reached the 600in of antler mark.

20 years ago, a 250in pen raised deer was amazing. Now the top breeders don't even bat an eye at a 250in deer, unless it's only 1.5 yo

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk

 

[BigAl]

so how are pen raised deer the fault/cause of wild deer getting CWD

I don't think anyone is making the argument pen raised deer are the cause of CWD, but experts theorize (real word?) they expedite the spread of CWD, since deer from CWD states get moved to non-CWD states.

 

[DMAG]

My uncle has a high fence farm and his are 100% genetics. He paid big big money for breeder bucks to be brought in. CWD is a very big problem in his area because he has 2 lakes about 70 acres a piece and 2 duck ponds about 20 acres a piece. The deer that are brought in are many times more likely to die of CWD that native deer. He had pens for does and breeding but he lost too many deer from CWD once they were released. You need some native genetics to help survival rate. It's a wild expensive industry. I have learned more about hunting deer helping him than I would have ever learned on my own. His 2.5 year old deer when he still had the pen would be 130-140" deer. He never had a breeder that was under 180" and the youngest from what I was told was 3.5. From what I have seen, let GOD do what he does. So many problems arise, you have to kill so many does a year or the population grows exponentially. Sorry to ramble but I'm actually down here now and every time I come down I am more amazed at how complex the process is.