Our Personal "Shooter Buck" Standards

[TheLBLman]

Regarding our personal "shooter buck" standards, is it better for them to remain unchanged throughout the season, or is it better to raise or lower those standards based on pre-rut, rut, and post-rut?

Also, do you raise or lower your personal standards later in the season based on whether you've already killed a buck or not this year?

My thoughts:

I raise my standards post-rut. Not by some huge margin, but do pass on bucks marginally meeting my standard, bucks I would have taken during the rut and pre-rut (and nothing to do with whether I'm using a bow or a gun). Part of my management plan is believing any buck that has survived the rut now has a much greater chance of not dying before the season ends. Works kinda like this, "Would you pass up larger antler bucks if you knew they would survive another year?" While we never know, it's just that the odds become much higher, post-rut. Even higher on the last day of deer season.

While I do not lower my standards when the season is closing if I haven't taken a buck, I may raise my standard before post-rut should I have already taken a buck that met those standards.

And believe or not, some of the best "deer seasons" I've ever had were some years I went "buckless", maybe in part because there was more to look forward to seeing the next year. I last went "buckless" in 2012, but still had a great deer season, enjoying many days afield, and was satisfied knowing I could have taken several bucks, just preferred doing what little I could (pass them up) to help insure they lived at least one more year.

For those who have never passed up a "nice" buck, I assure you it's all about "mindset" and positive forward thinking. Doing so grows on you, and most begin to enjoy doing it more. The hunting becomes more about just that, hunting, but also helping to create better hunting. This may be a little easier in Unit L, since I always take enough doe to have plenty of venison, not really needing any meat from a buck.

 

[TheLBLman]

And to me, there is no difference in a "bow" deer vs. a "gun" deer. (How many times have you heard, "That's a pretty good deer, for a bow.") I use a bow mainly to increase the days I have opportunity, not to lower my standards. Same for muzzleloader.

I prefer to hunt with a more effective centerfire rifle, but do enjoy hunting with a bow, and a muzzleloader. Some people are more into their weapons than their hunting. That's fine, to each their own. I'm just more into hunting, and see the weapon as a tool used in my hunting. I prefer to use the most effective one among the choices, simply seeing myself more as a deer hunter, rather than a particular weapon enthusiast.

Similar thinking has me squirrel hunting with a shotgun instead of a bow, although I have taken a few squirrels with the bow and enjoy the hunting regardless of the weapon.

 

[Boll Weevil]

My standards remain unchanged throughout the season right til the brutal end. If anything I start anticipating the next year a bit. Regarding does, if we haven't yet met our harvest goal we really spend the last few weeks taking care of that aspect.

And I agree...passing a buck actually becomes rewarding if you do it enough.

 

[BSK]

My standards have certainly changed over the years as my wants and desires for my hunting experience have changed. In addition, my, and the other hunters who hunt the same property, standards have changed as the property and the deer population using it have changed over time. In essence, our standards have changed as the reality of the situation has changed (what "realistic" goals are for the conditions).

I also think it's important to realize that every hunting area's unique circumstances have to be factored into standards and goals. Some properties see most of the best hunting at the front-end of the season, while other areas see better daylight buck movement towards the end of the season. That would have to be considered when developing goals for each of those properties, and deciding whether goals should change as the season progresses.

 

[benellivol]

I have two or three I gun for based off cameras. I'll let a lot walk to get a shot at those bucks.

Now, I can and will continue to be surprised by bucks that have shifted over during the season, but I have it in my mind which bucks I want. Those standards don't change unless I get a "bonus buck" that I consider a shooter shift over to me.

 

[deerhunter10]

My standards change throughout the season once December hits I get crazy picky especially the last two weeks of season. I figure if they make it this long I want to at least try to get them through the rest and see what they do. I am picky anyways if its not a big deer or very old deer I don't shoot anyway. I don't have to kill anything to have a good season it can be frustrating at times but I do enjoy it. And I think that's one reason our late season is good. We have so much food and we pass on so much its almost like a safe haven for them. After missing the deer I was after for 3 years a week and a half ago my standards have gotten crazy. But when you are hunting ridges and hollers. Sometimes it happens so fast you have to react so sometimes I do kill deer I didnt intend to but I am thankful for all of them. But yes my standards are very high and get higher through the season.

 

[woodsman87]

I am not nearly as advanced as yall, but I have started to lower my standards over time. I went through the shoot everything phase as a kid and young teen, then as an old teen and college days went throught the mountable or bust phase, and now I am going back down to the whatever makes me happy on that day, and just trying to enjoy the woods and having the oppurtunity to shoot a deer if presented.
I also raise my standards by the end of the year. If a buck can make it through the heat of the season, by the last week or so he has a good chance to make it till next year.
It is tough to do this sometimes though when you hunt very small properties, Im talking 250acres. We have been trying to manage it, shooting equal to or more does than bucks, not shooting 1-1/2 and 2-1/2 year olds. But it just isn't working. Trail cameras and our hunter observations, and glassing the fields in the summer show that it isn't working, and I should have thougth that in the first place. Still have yet to recognize a buck one year from the next. I am just lost on what to do other than just hunt, have fun, and shoot what makes me happy.

 

[woodsman87]

Around here, except for the little yearling spikes and four points and some of the basket sixes, you never see them more than once. I have seen and photographed and trail pic some better bucks, but it is just that one instant that you see him, then he is never to be seen again in person or on trail cam.

So I say I raise my standards in late season, but to ponder on it, If I saw a buck that was 3-1/2 plus with a nice rack I am taking it, do not care if it is the last second of legal shooting light. They just don't last long around here.

 

[muddyboots]

I just know it when I see them. If I have to think twice hes not a shooter in my book.

 

[Winchester]

My standards are the same regardless of weapon, I too use each season to gain more days afield and I use what I consider to be the best in terms of performance in each weapon type. As for size/age of buck I shoot, it doesn't change much but will vary just a lil depending on what piece of property or area im hunting at the time. I try to never shoot anything less than 3.5 and most times im looking for a 4.5, even with age however if he has a smaller rack than im happy with he gets a pass regardless of age. Time of season matters not as if he isn't big enough the first day he isn't big enough the last day.
All that said, I get way more satisfaction nowadays from watching my 2 boys shoot deer, any deer they are happy with! They both also pass a lot of does and small bucks but still occasionally opt to shoot a young buck and I couldn't be happier for them! To each his own!

 

[BSK]

...went throught the mountable or bust phase, and now I am going back down to the whatever makes me happy on that day, and just trying to enjoy the woods and having the oppurtunity to shoot a deer if presented.

Same here. I'll be the first to admit; I absolutely DO want to shoot a buck every year. I put far too much time, effort, and money into hunting and management to go home empty-handed for an entire deer season. Now I'm not going to shoot a yearling buck, but I'll shoot anything "decent" that is 2 1/2+. However, a second buck the same year has to be something special. It is quite rare for anyone on my place to kill a 2nd buck. That's only happened a handful of times (although twice this year).

Around here, except for the little yearling spikes and four points and some of the basket sixes, you never see them more than once. I have seen and photographed and trail pic some better bucks, but it is just that one instant that you see him, then he is never to be seen again in person or on trail cam.

For bucks 3 1/2+, we don't see the majority of them, and for the ones we do see, seeing them a second time is exceptionally rare. If you decide to pass a 3 1/2+ buck on my place, no one else on the property is going to kill it because he won't be seen again that season.

And only about 33% of 3 1/2+ year-old bucks photographed in a given year also used the property the previous year.

 

[ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER]

as a property owner my goal is 4 1/2 year old bucks or older.in the last 3 years our practices are really starting to pay off.this keeps my standards high.

 

[Frank G]

Other then a youth hunt or first time WT hunter, Our group (of 5) set our miminum of a "healthy" 6 point. Even then we have all passed on a few. He'll be back as an 8 next year. Hopefully!

 

[RUGER]

My standards never change.
When hunting where property is managed I shoot to those guidelines as well as my personal choice.

All other properties, totally dependant on my mood at that time.

 

[102]

And to me, there is no difference in a "bow" deer vs. a "gun" deer. (How many times have you heard, "That's a pretty good deer, for a bow.") I use a bow mainly to increase the days I have opportunity, not to lower my standards. Same for muzzleloader.

I prefer to hunt with a more effective centerfire rifle, but do enjoy hunting with a bow, and a muzzleloader. Some people are more into their weapons than their hunting. That's fine, to each their own. I'm just more into hunting, and see the weapon as a tool used in my hunting. I prefer to use the most effective one among the choices, simply seeing myself more as a deer hunter, rather than a particular weapon enthusiast.

Similar thinking has me squirrel hunting with a shotgun instead of a bow, although I have taken a few squirrels with the bow and enjoy the hunting regardless of the weapon.

Yeah, the whole "bow buck" designation is annoying to me as well.

It does not annoy me at all. But I will tell you what does annoy me. People who make posts about this type of hunting or that type of hunting, with this or that weapon, about this age class buck or that age doe, who have trail cam pics and some kind of history with a certain deer, and then talk about passing these deer as if they will see them again.

And then I find out, they just might see them again because they are hunting privately owned, and managed property that is not open to public hunting at all...ever.

There is absolutely no comparison to a large tract of low pressured privately owned property that has very minimal hunter stress, vs. public property where there is much stress from hunter pressure.

So, in my humble but seasoned opinion, the discussion should be about what is the most challenging way to kill a deer?

In fact...I believe I will start another thread!

Merry Christmas!
luv you guys!

 

[Mike Belt]

I believe my standards are changing somewhat. Last year I killed a 128+ buck. This year I killed a 129+ buck and may again. In the 5 years prior to that I wouldn't have pulled the trigger on any buck any age if he wasn't 140+. I credit this change to accepting the reality that the land and area I hunt not having the size bucks I was holding out for in highly huntable numbers. There are some there but it's possible to hunt for years and not ever get a shot off while waiting. I purely enjoy shooting bucks and I spend far too much time, money, and effort to go 6 or 7 years between shots. I may very well let a buck walk opening day of bow season only to possibly kill him later in the gun season now although any buck I kill now will still probably be above average size for a mature Tn buck.

 

[DonW]

Hard to say, for me, my first goal is to put meat in the freezer, so I will take any animal that is large enough, regardless of the antlers on his head, or lack of them when taking a doe is legal. I have passed on smaller bodied animals hoping for a bigger one to wander by, and never regretted it.

 

[TheLBLman]

And to me, there is no difference in a "bow" deer vs. a "gun" deer. . . . . I use a bow mainly to increase the days I have opportunity . . . .

I prefer to hunt with a more effective centerfire rifle, but do enjoy hunting with a bow, and a muzzleloader. Some people are more into their weapons than their hunting. That's fine, to each their own. I'm just more into hunting, and see the weapon as a tool used in my hunting. . . . . .

Yeah, the whole "bow buck" designation is annoying to me as well.

It does not annoy me at all. But I will tell you what does annoy me. People who make posts about this type of hunting or that type of hunting, with this or that weapon . . . . . .

So, in my humble but seasoned opinion, the discussion should be about what is the most challenging way to kill a deer?

Ah, but in the humble seasoned opinions of some, it is more about which is the most challenging deer to kill, regardless of enthusiasms over which weapon to use in the taking. :)

 

[jaybird62]

After the November chase phase is over and I don't get a shot at mature bucks on my "hit list", I switch over to different rifles or handguns that I would like to experience killing a deer (buck or doe) with. I passed a nice 16-inch 8-pointer at 30 yards a couple days ago because I was hunting with a long-range rifle. If he had stepped out at 300+ I would have pulled the trigger. If I had been hunting with a revolver I would have pulled the trigger. It's more about the experience and challenge than anything else for me. I'm more into making memories. It's also location dependent. If I'm on my own property I'll pass a 2 1/2-year-old. If I'm on public land or club land in Hickman county I doubt I'll pass the buck.

 

[landman]

I'm like BSK on one side, I want to kill a buck, too much time, money, etc tied up in land and management of it not to shoot one.

But I'm looking for a 3.5 yr old too shoot, lately we have had a few with outstanding bodies 180+lbs dressed that by themselves actually make the rack look small on a 120=130" deer. They will fool you, but a 4.5 yr 135lb deer looks huge with a 140" rack.

My dad gets a pass to shoot what he wants

Kids do too

I set a goal about 5 years ago that I wanted to kill another 25 bucks 3.5yr and 120" min. now that I have cancer I'd love to hang around long enough to do that

 

[Hunter 257W]

I'm at a point where I no longer get any enjoyment out of shooting the 10" spread 6 points that I used to. But I'm sure not up to what some of you guys expect. To be perfectly honest my personal standard is antlers outside the ear tips. Prefer a 3 1/2 yr old on top of that but since so many buck opportunities last only an instant, it's not always possible to accurately judge age so if I see antlers outside the ear tips, he better be careful because a bullet is comming his way. IF this results in shooting some above average 2 1/2 year olds then so be it. In contrast to this, I consider myself a psuedo trophy hunter because I am very hesitant to shoot more than 1 buck a season no matter what. Some years I don't shoot any. I've been doing this for 12 seasons now and do find it a bit frustrating that the older bucks haven't increased in numbers to the degree I hoped they would, but they have increased a noticeable amount regardless. I feel like I'm doing my part to increase the number of older bucks in the area though. :)

As far as my standard changing as the season progresses, it doesn't except that when I shoot a buck, a second buck would have to be WAY bigger than the 1st to ever get me to shoot the 2nd. I haven't shot 2 in a season since 2002.

 

[BSK]

I'm at a point where I no longer get any enjoyment out of shooting the 10" spread 6 points that I used to. But I'm sure not up to what some of you guys expect. To be perfectly honest my personal standard is antlers outside the ear tips.

Don't worry about it Hunter 257W. Personal standards are just that, "personal." Hunt for whatever makes you happy.

As I've said before, I went through the whole "mature buck" and "trophy" stage of hunting, and now my desires run more towards just having fun and shooting a few deer. I'll gladly shoot any decent buck that is 2 1/2+. And by "decent," I mean only 90+. As long as I shoot a buck most years, I'm happy, even if it's just going to end up another European mount on the wall. I'm happy with that.

As far as my standard changing as the season progresses, it doesn't except that when I shoot a buck, a second buck would have to be WAY bigger than the 1st to ever get me to shoot the 2nd. I haven't shot 2 in a season since 2002.

That is our standard for a 2nd buck as well. Few on my place ever kill a 2nd buck. It's only been done 3 or 4 times since we implemented QDM guidelines 25 years ago. Thankfully, I was lucky enough to experience it this year, with a 3 1/2 year-old during MZ and a 5 1/2 year-old wall-hanger during gun season.

 

[Hunter 257W]

Yep, BSK, I would have definitely shot that 2nd buck of yours even if he was a 3rd buck of the year! :)

 

[catman529]

And to me, there is no difference in a "bow" deer vs. a "gun" deer. (How many times have you heard, "That's a pretty good deer, for a bow.")

I have thought the same thing, why does pope and young have such a low score to get into the record books? A lot of the really big bucks I've seen or heard of were killed with a bow.

 

[TheLBLman]

I have thought the same thing, why does pope and young have such a low score to get into the record books? A lot of the really big bucks I've seen or heard of were killed with a bow.

It is amazing that so many of the "top-end" record bucks have been taken with a bow.

Named in honor of pioneer bowhunters Dr. Saxton Pope and Arthur Young whose exploits during the early part of the 20th century drew national attention to this "forgotten" and challenging form of hunting, the Pope and Young Club began in 1957 . . . . . .

Back in the late 1950's and 1960's, "archery" hunting was something entirely different than what it has become today. This was before the compound bow, and before "sights", before mechanical releases, etc. It was also before many states had extensive "archery only" hunting opportunities that today exceed the opportunities with a gun in many locales.

The most common man's hunting bow was a 45-lb "recurve", which was already an advancement from the "longer" bows of a few years earlier. Standard arrows were made of cedar, not that straight, and all were tipped with fixed-blade heads. Shooting was "instinctive", without sights.

Then, as now, it's more challenging to take any deer with a simple recurve bow (shooting instinctively) than with a modern high-tech archery rig. But unlike now, back then there were not as many deer, and even fewer "archery only" locales or places to hunt where gun hunting was very limited (compared to archery hunting opportunities of today, many of which have either no or very limited and restricted gun hunting opportunities).

Not that one couldn't hunt with a bow during the "gun" season, unlike Fred Bear, most hunters began archery hunting more to increase their hunting opportunity rather than a special love for the weapon. IMO, this is still true today, and the extra and "extra special" opportunities for "archery only" are much more than a few decades ago.

I can only speculate that the reason for the lower minimums is because a few decades ago there was a much wider gap between archery opportunities and firearm opportunities. And not saying it isn't a greater challenge to take any particular deer with any bow vs any gun, but am saying many of today's archery-only opportunities may provide an accomplished hunter greater opportunity for a larger-antlered buck than many of today's opportunities for gun hunting. It is for this very reason that so many avid Tennessee deer hunters find themselves bowhunting in Illinois and Kentucky rather than gun hunting in Tennessee, and/or choosing to bowhunting an "archery only" area of Ft. Campbell rather than gun hunt a different area.

I would contend the kind of archery hunting done by Saxton Pope, Art Young, and Fred Bear ---- for the most part, remains a forgotten and challenging form of hunting. It went away with the 90% let-off, high-tech sights & rangefinders, etc. But for those who really do want that greater challenge, it's certainly still available. Me, I'm just looking for the extra opportunity provided by archery hunting. :) And my personal "challenge" has gone from hunting any deer with a recurve bow, to targeting mature deer with the most effective weapon allowed where I'm hunting.

 

[102]

And to me, there is no difference in a "bow" deer vs. a "gun" deer. (How many times have you heard, "That's a pretty good deer, for a bow.")

I have thought the same thing, why does pope and young have such a low score to get into the record books? A lot of the really big bucks I've seen or heard of were killed with a bow.

I just went back and read this Cat...

LOW STANDARDS???

Have you ever seen a 125 inch buck?
I mean put your hands on a buck that NETS, AFTER deductions, 125 inches. (we ARE talking Pope and Young). Most people do not realize how big that 125 inch buck is.

And yes, assuming that rack is attached to a mature buck, it is much more difficult to kill with a bow at close range than at that same range with a rifle.

And anyone who would argue this is simply in denial.

 

[TheLBLman]

I mean put your hands on a buck that NETS, AFTER deductions, 125 inches. (we ARE talking Pope and Young). Most people do not realize how big that 125 inch buck is.

And yes, assuming that rack is attached to a mature buck, it is much more difficult to kill with a bow at close range than at that same range with a rifle.

I totally agree with this. :)

My point is there are today much more OPPORTUNITIES for an accomplished deer hunter to have a 125-inch buck at close range bowhunting archery-only days than he might have during gun-hunting opportunities. Often this equates to the difference of having 50-plus days of archery only hunting vs. only a relatively few days of gun hunting in many states (such as Illinois & KY).

Additionally, many of the 125-net bucks making P&Y are not mature bucks. Many are 2 1/2-yr-olds. I'd even speculate the average age of most entries is 3 1/2.

By no means am I attempting to demean any hunter's accomplishments, and it will always be more challenging to take any particular deer with a bow than with a gun. My point is instead meant as explanationary in that:

1) Today's bows, arrows, and arrow heads are very different challenges compared to the 1960's and '70's recurves with cedar arrows, no sights, etc.

2) Unlike then, today the archery-only deer hunting opportunities typically exceed the gun-hunting opportunities in ALL states. An accomplished deer hunter is able to take advantage of these opportunities, and HIS using modern archery equipment is not the huge disadvantage it is played, mainly because he will have so many more opportunities to have these deer at close range. By contrast, it is a huge disadvantage for a novice hunter, who many not have the hunting skills needed for frequent close-range encounters with older deer.

3) I could care less whatever P&Y makes their minimums, nor does the weapon in my hand determine my personal shooter buck standards. That's just me, to each his own standards.
But for the average "bowhunter" afield during the 1960's, it would have been a far greater challenge to come home with a 125-class buck than it is for the average deer hunter afield today, regardless of the weapon in his hand.

 

[landman]

And to me, there is no difference in a "bow" deer vs. a "gun" deer. (How many times have you heard, "That's a pretty good deer, for a bow.")

I have thought the same thing, why does pope and young have such a low score to get into the record books? A lot of the really big bucks I've seen or heard of were killed with a bow.

I just went back and read this Cat...

LOW STANDARDS???

Have you ever seen a 125 inch buck?
I mean put your hands on a buck that NETS, AFTER deductions, 125 inches. (we ARE talking Pope and Young). Most people do not realize how big that 125 inch buck is.

And yes, assuming that rack is attached to a mature buck, it is much more difficult to kill with a bow at close range than at that same range with a rifle.

And anyone who would argue this is simply in denial.

Or never killed one

 

[102]

And to me, there is no difference in a "bow" deer vs. a "gun" deer. (How many times have you heard, "That's a pretty good deer, for a bow.")

I have thought the same thing, why does pope and young have such a low score to get into the record books? A lot of the really big bucks I've seen or heard of were killed with a bow.

I just went back and read this Cat...

LOW STANDARDS???

Have you ever seen a 125 inch buck?
I mean put your hands on a buck that NETS, AFTER deductions, 125 inches. (we ARE talking Pope and Young). Most people do not realize how big that 125 inch buck is.

And yes, assuming that rack is attached to a mature buck, it is much more difficult to kill with a bow at close range than at that same range with a rifle.

And anyone who would argue this is simply in denial.

Or never killed one

So true landman.

 

[102]

I mean put your hands on a buck that NETS, AFTER deductions, 125 inches. (we ARE talking Pope and Young). Most people do not realize how big that 125 inch buck is.

And yes, assuming that rack is attached to a mature buck, it is much more difficult to kill with a bow at close range than at that same range with a rifle.

I totally agree with this. :)

My point is there are today much more OPPORTUNITIES for an accomplished deer hunter to have a 125-inch buck at close range bowhunting archery-only days than he might have during gun-hunting opportunities. Often this equates to the difference of having 50-plus days of archery only hunting vs. only a relatively few days of gun hunting in many states (such as Illinois & KY).

Additionally, many of the 125-net bucks making P&Y are not mature bucks. Many are 2 1/2-yr-olds. I'd even speculate the average age of most entries is 3 1/2.

By no means am I attempting to demean any hunter's accomplishments, and it will always be more challenging to take any particular deer with a bow than with a gun. My point is instead meant as explanationary in that:

1) Today's bows, arrows, and arrow heads are very different challenges compared to the 1960's and '70's recurves with cedar arrows, no sights, etc.

2) Unlike then, today the archery-only deer hunting opportunities typically exceed the gun-hunting opportunities in ALL states. An accomplished deer hunter is able to take advantage of these opportunities, and HIS using modern archery equipment is not the huge disadvantage it is played, mainly because he will have so many more opportunities to have these deer at close range. By contrast, it is a huge disadvantage for a novice hunter, who many not have the hunting skills needed for frequent close-range encounters with older deer.

3) I could care less whatever P&Y makes their minimums, nor does the weapon in my hand determine my personal shooter buck standards. That's just me, to each his own standards.
But for the average "bowhunter" afield during the 1960's, it would have been a far greater challenge to come home with a 125-class buck than it is for the average deer hunter afield today, regardless of the weapon in his hand.

Wes,
You make some good points ( I still say you are a lawyer).
And yes, I have, do, and will continue to make good use of my archery opportunities. I have taken 6 bucks that will gross P/Y or better. One that grosses almost 169. Of these, fiesty red heads husband, Ben Layton, Officially scored and put two in "the book for me. I chose not to have any others officially scored after Ben taught me how to score them myself, and I and a friend scored them. No doubt, more will net P/Y minimums. Maybe one day I will enter more. Just in no hurry.

And of these six bucks, only ONE was killed during the archery only season in Tennessee. 4 were archery only in Illinois, but then, to be fair, almost all Illinois hunting is bow only.
Honestly, I just lost interest in stroking my own ego for "the book" and have since (as BSK has touched on so many times) reverted back to a time and place when I just enjoyed hunting, and killing what I wanted, to be legal, ethical, and happy with my own kill.

Trophy hunting is just not fun anymore. If I lived in an area of the country where large racked bucks lived in huntable numbers, I might rethink this.

But in 33 deer seasons, and over 250 kills, (all but about 30 by bow), I can honestly say I have been there, done that, with all weapon types and all age groups.

Yes, it is easier for me to kill a young deer than an old one with my bow, but it is SO easy with a gun, even in EAST Tennessee, I won't do it (or rarely).

I will stand by this fact, the toughest deer (buck or doe) to kill in the woods is the one that knows that humans are a threat. That humans (and ALL human associated sights, smells, and sounds) are to be terribly feared and avoided at all times. In other words, a pressured (i.e.-hunted) deer since birth.

Also, this same deer that is fully focused on survival, NOT breeding.

And for this reason, I still say that if we were never allowed to hunt deer while they were most visible, and "out of their minds" i.e.-rut, our kill numbers of mature, big bucks would be far lower than they are now.

And coincidentally, the majority of our rut hunting (certainly includes Illinois) is during PEAK rut times. At least this has been the case where I have hunted for the past 33 years.

Does bowhunting give me and edge? Of course in that I am out there longer.

I have never been serious about gun hunting. I have killed several mature deer by gun, a few good bucks too. But I just did not get the satisfaction I do with an arrow.

In the end, to each his own.

Happy New Year...love you man!