new smokeless muzzleloaders

Tennessee Deer Sporting & Deer Hunting Community Forum

Help Support TNDeer | Tennessee Deer:

cntryboy657

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
204
City & State/Province
Bartlett tn
i have seen people talking about the savage and finially figured out why. i have never been a big savage fan. i found out the big deal was that it was a somkeless muzzleloader. i know this may be a lil hipacritical but i think that this is kinda of neat but i think that this is going a lil to far. i love to muzzleloader hunt.i do shoot an inline muzzleloader and yes i do shot 209 primer but to me if u take the smoke away it kinda takes the fun out. i mean whats next. i just bought a new muzzleloader and i thought long and hard about it cause i know it gets better ballestics..but to me i there are somethings im not ready to move on to. i still like to keep a lil bit of tradition...even though i do have several modern abilitys....no disrespect ment toward those that have them and fell different though
 
traditional or not, heres my opinion for what its worth.

some states dont allow scopes, pelletized powder, sabots because of the traditionalists reasoning.

my opinion, dont we owe it to the game we hunt, to harvest them with the best tools available?

savage didnt invent that rifle, henry ball invented it after a cva sidelock blew up and put him in the hospital. it was a traditional sidelock rifle. so after that he decided he was going to develop most accurate smokeless rifle ever made. if i remember it was on a mauser action.
 
I have had a Savage for 3 years now.
As long as they are leagl, I will never go back to Black powder.
It was the best money I have spent on hunting equipment upgrades.
 
cntryboy657 said:
i know this may be a lil hipacritical but i think that this is kinda of neat but i think that this is going a lil to far. i love to muzzleloader hunt.i do shoot an inline muzzleloader and yes i do shot 209 primer
I agree about the hypocritical part. :)

It may be hypocritical for any of us to "criticize" what particular muzzleloader another hunter is using during our "muzzleloader" season.

IMO, only those who were using a flintlock with iron sights ever had any legitimate complaint about what someone else might use during a muzzleloader season. And their complaint should have been directed towards state game agencies, not fellow hunters. Since any muzzleloader is legal in Tennessee, none of us should have a gripe regarding what another hunter is legally using.

For most hunting situations in Tennessee, I don't see the Savage smokeless as having much advantage over most other quality inlines (such as TC, Knight, etc.). The real muzzleloading advantages came when we went to optical sights and inline ignitions. The ability to use smokeless powder is just a little sweeter icing on the cake.

cntryboy657 said:
i have never been a big savage fan. i found out the big deal was that it was a somkeless muzzleloader.
That was the case. The bigger deal now may be that Savage has produced a top-quality muzzleloader 2nd to none (other than custom makes), the price of a Savage is competitive with other quality models, and with the added ability to use smokeless powder. But you can still use T7 pellets or real black powder in a Savage if you want.

Without question, smokeless powders will outperform black-powder substitutes. But much of the appeal of the Savage smokeless was the "clean" burning aspect of smokeless powder ---- most of us just hate all that cleaning with black powder. Now, with the invention of Blackhorn 209, usable in ANY inline muzzleloader using 209 caps, some of the appeal of using smokeless has been mitigated.
 
cntryboy657 said:
i love to muzzleloader hunt.i do shoot an inline muzzleloader and yes i do shot 209 primer but to me if u take the smoke away it kinda takes the fun out. i mean whats next?
You really want to know?

DEER Season.

Just a matter of time, there will be no "special" weapons seasons.
The opening day of the November rifle season will soon become what was the opening day of muzzleloader season. You'll simply be able to use any rifle you choose, whether smokeless or black powder, muzzleloading or breech loading.

Archery season segments will be around a few years longer, but just a matter of time until a simple "DEER" season replaces "bow" season, and for the same reasons it is becoming no longer necessary to keep a special muzzleloader season. A big step in this direction was when compound bows replaced recurve and long bows. The next big step was when crossbows were made legal archery equipment to all.

Of course, there will be a growing number of places that will stop allowing firearms for hunting because "they", being the powers that be, will say that firearms are simply no longer "safe" in a certain community, county, township, or even a WMA. Much of the future's "urban" deer hunting will be "archery only". But this is a totally different issue than the "special" weapons seasons we currently have, like "archery" and "muzzleloader".

"Special" weapon season segments were initially allowed because state game agencies felt they would "do little or no harm" to a deer herd they were trying to grow and expand. There were so relatively few participants (initially), and using such ineffective weapons (relative to a modern centerfire), that few people had much problem with these "special" extra hunting opportunities for the few, the proud, the strong, who would identify themselves as "bowhunters", and then "black powder hunters".

I can remember when hats were off to any hunter who had the skill to kill a deer, ANY deer, with a stick and a string. And if not a deer, a squirrel. Even a blackbird would do. The process and thinking repeated with the new black powder "special" deer seasons. We considered ourselves extra "special" just for being participants in these special events.

I remember one day when a very young TWRA Officer Mark Gudlin, probably on his first assignment with TWRA, "checked" me while I was bowhunting for deer. He asked if I'd seen any deer, and I said "no". But before I could say more, "Well, what's that fresh blood there from?" I had two large fox squirrels, both shot thru the head with an arrow. I was about as proud of those squirrels as I would have been with a deer. Mark seemed equally impressed. Many moons ago.

But that was back in the day when there were real skills involved in just learning and using the equipment, or getting that old gun to even fire. Daily archery practice was once a requirement to even acquire borderline shooting skills to take a deer at 15 or 20 yards. Now, it's just "pull the trigger" on a 90% let-off bow, or a scoped crossbow, or a modern firearm. Just "pull the trigger". Of course I'm oversimplifying, but you get my drift.

Much of the "specialness" of the participation has long since gone away. Once seen as very special hunters, many have now become seen more as an arrogant group with an entitlement mentality. They were "entitled" to more and more days afield because after all, they were "special". Not so much any more. Just pull your trigger.

Of course, there are still a few hunters around still using a real stick & string, or a real black-powder flintlock --- but they're getting fewer and farther between and maybe even more special in the eyes of the rest of us. And I have nothing but respect for the hunter's choice to use a bow, any bow, during a gun season. It's still a greater challenge. But it's a personal choice, not necessarily a choice that will or should grant exclusive hunting days in the future.

I say these things, hypocritically guilty as charged myself, because I started out the "special seasons" with a simple stick & string, and later an old Hawken muzzleloader. My very first "special season" deer was killed with a 40-lb recurve, real cedar arrows, and some type of homemade head. I still vividly remember smelling the cedar where the arrow had broken, a piece fell from the deer. Every time I smell cedar, I think of that moment when I was 13 years old and killed my first deer with a very simple bow. I used to be a bowhunter. Now I'm just proud to be a deer hunter, and counting each next day I get to hunt again. It matters little to me what weapon I may have in my hand. But like most modern deer hunters, I'll probably be using something among the most effective of legal weapons allowed. That will probably be a Savage smokeless during muzzleloader. Never mind I tried to redeem myself in 2007 by going back to bow hunting with a simple recurve bow. I have no plans to go back to a flintlock.

As hunter numbers decline and statewide deer herds spiral out of control, we'll just have a long deer season. And you can hunt with whatever you want. Well, at least until the next generation outlaws hunting at the voting booth. After that, the hunt is over.
 
Good post Wes! Your 100% right on the money,If im not mistaken SC already has just a "deer season" its what ever weapon you want to use.
 
WTM said:
my opinion, dont we owe it to the game we hunt, to harvest them with the best tools available?

cant argue with that.

i dont see anything wrong with any hunting equipment as long as its legal.

i just wish i could afford a savage smokless right now.
 
Man if you are loading it from the muzzle than it is muzzleloading! Exactly as described!!
 
The day that it becomes just deer season, we will see alot of archery and muzzle loading business go away. IMO, I think that a lot of hunters would want to use their weapon of choice but will feel out gunned in the field carrying a stick and string or an 'OL Smoke Pole knowing every man & is brothers are afield with an arsonal and pick up the centerfire more times than not...
 
cntryboy657 said:
i have seen people talking about the savage and finially figured out why. i have never been a big savage fan. i found out the big deal was that it was a somkeless muzzleloader. i know this may be a lil hipacritical but i think that this is kinda of neat but i think that this is going a lil to far. i love to muzzleloader hunt.i do shoot an inline muzzleloader and yes i do shot 209 primer but to me if u take the smoke away it kinda takes the fun out. i mean whats next. i just bought a new muzzleloader and i thought long and hard about it cause i know it gets better ballestics..but to me i there are somethings im not ready to move on to. i still like to keep a lil bit of tradition...even though i do have several modern abilitys....no disrespect ment toward those that have them and fell different though

I understand your feelings & generaly feel the same. I think that it should be called "Black Powder" season but I also have a sort of guilty feeling for feeling this way because I use a modern Inline as well...I do not think that you have to use an old flint lock smooth bore and ball to feel the tradition. Its all about the powder to me. The mess that it makes, the accuracy that slips away with every shot because of fowling, the bullets getting harder to load with every shot because of fowling and most definetly the big cloud of smoke...Ahhhhhh!
 
Good point wtm...
If sinning bothered people as much as breaking some "unwritten traditional Notion of purism.....aka doing it the black powder way.....this would be a righteousness nation......me thinks.

WTM said:
traditional or not, heres my opinion for what its worth.

some states dont allow scopes, pelletized powder, sabots because of the traditionalists reasoning.

my opinion, dont we owe it to the game we hunt, to harvest them with the best tools available?

savage didnt invent that rifle, henry ball invented it after a cva sidelock blew up and put him in the hospital. it was a traditional sidelock rifle. so after that he decided he was going to develop most accurate smokeless rifle ever made. if i remember it was on a mauser action.
 
I understand your feelings & generaly feel the same. I think that it should be called "Black Powder" season but I also have a sort of guilty feeling for feeling this way because I use a modern Inline as well...I do not think that you have to use an old flint lock smooth bore and ball to feel the tradition. Its all about the powder to me. The mess that it makes, the accuracy that slips away with every shot because of fowling, the bullets getting harder to load with every shot because of fowling and most definetly the big cloud of smoke...Ahhhhhh! [/quote] exactly!!
 
cntryboy657 said:
I understand your feelings & generaly feel the same. I think that it should be called "Black Powder" season but I also have a sort of guilty feeling for feeling this way because I use a modern Inline as well...I do not think that you have to use an old flint lock smooth bore and ball to feel the tradition. Its all about the powder to me. The mess that it makes, the accuracy that slips away with every shot because of fowling, the bullets getting harder to load with every shot because of fowling and most definetly the big cloud of smoke...Ahhhhhh!
exactly!! [/quote]

i like the smoke too!!! but as black powder is becoming increasingly difficult to obtain because of its "explosives" classification, a lot of folks would probably not ML hunt if we were restricted to just black powder. in my rifles 777 fouls up pretty nicely!!!lol

the traditional ML hunters are always stating the dislikes of the modern inline, but i wonder if they know that the first BP inline rifle was developed in the 1850's.
 
I�ve been reading on this site for a few months now. I just joined so I could post in this thread. Let me apologize in advance if I make anybody mad.

I�m an old timer. A very old timer. When I was a kid, I thought the only guns worth having were the single-action revolver, the sxs double-barreled shotgun, and the lever-action 30-30 (with open sights only). Anything else, to me, was �too modern�. In particular, I hated scopes. I thought they were for sissy city boys who couldn�t shoot. I proudly used my Winchester 30-30 with open sights.

Sometime in my thirties, thank goodness, I finally realized that I was being hard-headed and just plain STUPID. I came to realize that improvements in equipment were good for the hunter, and for the game being shot. While I loved my old Winchester, I had to admit that it was more at home hanging above the fireplace than in the woods.

When I finally made the change to a heavier bolt-action gun topped with a good scope, I dropped deer in their tracks a lot more often, and I found almost every deer I shot. Which were significant improvements over the results I got from shooting a light lever gun with a hammer (and thus a long lock time), and no scope.

Muzzleloaders have advanced to the point where they are just as accurate and deadly as rifles out to 200 yards. This is good for the hunters, and for the game being shot. And there�s no going back. There�s no way TWRA is ever going to retroactively make modern muzzleloaders illegal.

So for all intents and purposes, when we use a modern inline muzzleloader topped with a good scope, we might as well be using a similarly equipped bolt action center fire rifle. So why shouldn�t we be allowed to do so? It would save us a lot of money, and a lot of time. Instead of having to buy, equip, and maintain at least two deer guns, we could easily get by with just one (every generation has 25% fewer hunters than the preceding generation; the escalating cost of hunting is a major reason for this). And the ease of cleaning a smokeless gun, and the forgiveness it offers when we fail to clean it, is worth a whole lot to me. I HATE the strict cleaning regimen and mess associated with using corrosive propellants.

For you guys who like to shoot both a muzzleloader and a center fire rifle, or just a muzzleloader, more power to you. Knock yourself out. And I wish you well. But it no longer makes sense that this should be required. No sense at all.

Requiring primitive weapons of any kind is an idea that has outlived itself. Completely. Especially with the huge deer populations in some places these days. I can�t drive down the road without seeing dead deer on the side of the road that have torn somebody�s car up. Which causes a greater number of insurance claims, which raises premiums for everybody.

Should only recurve bows be allowed for use during the first part of archery season? No. Should only �primitive� fishing tackle be allowed for use during the month of April? Of course not. Then why should only muzzleloaders be allowed for use during the first part of deer gun season?

I say there should be one long deer hunting season in which hunters are free to use the weapon of their choice (I'll be glad to continue paying the fee for muzzleloader season).

Until then, I'll continue hunting with my Savage smokeless.
 
The following was copied from http://randywakeman.com/ballltd93.htm. It says a lot.

Scorched scopes, pitted barrels, frozen breechplugs, and worrying about cleaning has never added to any hunting experience for me-- and hunting is supposed to be fun, after all. Alternative propellants are on their way, several of which attempt to confine the cleaning conundrum. Again and again, hunters have longed for non corrosive, clean powders-- and guns that need no immediate cleaning at all. That alone makes muzzleloading a lot more fun. Equally important to me is the ability to see the strike of the bullet, and the game animal's reaction to it. That alone gives you first hand knowledge of the anchoring ability of a load. More importantly, it allows for more rapid game recovery. I don't have the numbers on exactly how many animals have been lost primarily to obscured view of the action after the trigger is pulled; but it is far from trivial. At the critical time of the harvest, I've felt cheated when I didn't see it all happen. That is a problem that has been adroitly addressed.
 
I think everyone should use the muzzleloader of their choice, if you're happy with black powder then so be it, as for me i have had a savage muzzleloader over five years now and its still going strong with over 4 to 5000 shots fired through it. i have shot so many different powders through it,[experimenting religiously from day one] that i can't remenber them all, but if i could only have one gun then it would be the trusted old savage.
 
I have a savege, it's not magic! For good accuracy you still need to clean every shoot. It still does not shoot as good as my old knight did when it was new. But a whole lot easier to clean and you can see the deer right after the shot to see what kind of hit you made. I won't go back to black powder.
 
if that gun don't shoot a good as your old knight then you need to do some experimenting to find the right load for it. try different bullet and powder combinations until you find one you're satisfied with.
 
reloaderman-

I have owned multiple sav 10ml2's. I graduated from those and now shoot a custom built off a 10 ml2 action.

I shoot a .40 cal that spits 200 gr bullets out at 3,000 fps.

The 3,000 fps is not the limit, just the test limit thus far.
 
I have thought of doing something like that but just haven't got around to doing it. I bet that is one sweet rifle, i will have a custom someday but for now i'll have to shoot my old worn out savage. Just kidding i'll never give it up but i will add to the collection!
 
I love mine and would never go back to the traditional muzzys.

To each their own!

Just let it be.

We all have our ideas about hunting.

Good luck to all!
 
varmint1111 said:
I have a savege, it's not magic! For good accuracy you still need to clean every shoot. It still does not shoot as good as my old knight did when it was new. But a whole lot easier to clean and you can see the deer right after the shot to see what kind of hit you made. I won't go back to black powder.

Don't mean to challenge you, but if you're having to clean between every shot, then you haven't found the right load, or something is wrong with your gun. Your situation is the rare exception; not even close to the norm.

The norm is being able to shoot 60-100 shots without worrying about cleaning.
 
Back
Top