Nesting data

[Rockhound]

I was told the other day, that the guys doing the study on the banded birds in my area said they banded 137 hens in Lawrence and Wayne counties. 38 of those adult hens never even attempted a nest last year. They didn't get busted up, nothing, they never laid the first egg.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

I was told the other day, that the guys doing the study on the banded birds in my area said they banded 137 hens in Lawrence and Wayne counties. 38 of those adult hens never even attempted a nest last year. They didn't get busted up, nothing, they never laid the first egg.

That's concerning as hell. Wonder if this is a result of not getting bred timely? I cant believe 28% of healthy adult hens just decided not to reproduce last year.

 

[Bgoodman30]

I was told the other day, that the guys doing the study on the banded birds in my area said they banded 137 hens in Lawrence and Wayne counties. 38 of those adult hens never even attempted a nest last year. They didn't get busted up, nothing, they never laid the first egg.

That's bad.


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[Wrangler95]

That is probably the reason the population is decreasing,along with predators and egg eaters>possums,coons,snakes,crows and other's!!!

 

[Andy S.]

Interesting. During my brainstorming sessions trying to figure out what in the world is happening with some of the localized populations that I am in tune with, I have often wondered if their is ANYTHING going on in the wild that is making some hens infertile. This is for areas where I KNOW FOR CERTAIN habitat has changed very little over the last 15 years, and chicken litter has not been introduced due to very little farming in the immediate area.

 

[megalomaniac]

That's MUCH higher that I would have expected. It's normal due to differing personalities for some birds to get spooked early in season and not initiate a nest, but I would never think it would be to that extent.

That being said, most hunters/ biologists simply do not understand just how individual each bird is. For example, of my 3 hens, one initiated laying around April 7th, another started April 18th, and the third started laying 3 days ago. All 3 birds are clutchmates, and housed identically, yet nest initiation differs by 3 weeks. To top it off, one of the birds has not yet allowed the gobbler to breed her despite being housed with him- all her eggs are still infertile.

 

[Rockhound]

I think the hens being infertile is a concern they had, could be anything, pesticides, agriculture practices who knows

 

[Rockhound]

That's MUCH higher that I would have expected. It's normal due to differing personalities for some birds to get spooked early in season and not initiate a nest, but I would never think it would be to that extent.

That being said, most hunters/ biologists simply do not understand just how individual each bird is. For example, of my 3 hens, one initiated laying around April 7th, another started April 18th, and the third started laying 3 days ago. All 3 birds are clutchmates, and housed identically, yet nest initiation differs by 3 weeks. To top it off, one of the birds has not yet allowed the gobbler to breed her despite being housed with him- all her eggs are still infertile.

From what I hear these birds never initiated anything, they never even went into nest mode, and stayed in their early spring routines until they changed into fall routine

 

[Bone Collector]

I've been wondering about this. I often times even at this time a year see hens flocked up, with no Tom. I wonder if they have been bred, but I read that once bred hens break up and become elusive in the nesting stage at least for parts of the day. Last Friday I saw a Tom and 5 hens. Saturday He gobbled twice and they went the other way. Sunday I'm pretty sure I heard a shot right at first light up where they hang out... Now I have 6 hens and no tom using my property daily. It's like it is early spring and they are just feeding through and feeding all day. I have gone at different times and they are just in the area eating.

Since 2012 (the year I bought my property) or 2013, I have not seen a hen with poults. I did see Jakes through, so somewhere a hen hatched eggs, but haven't seen any this year.

I have often wondered if the Hens are infertile. The last two years I had 8-10 toms and probably 30 hens (most looked full grown), so about 1 tom to every 3-4 hens. There is no way I shouldn't have a ton of turkey unless they are all getting their nests raided. The odds of that are unlikely, so I have been wondering if they are just not nesting.

When I wrote the TWRA biologist he said, they think part of the turkeys declining is that the population is declining to carrying capacity after the restocking efforts. I wonder if this has something to do with them not nesting (if that is the case)? Though I question this, because, I believe restocking was over and done with in the early 2000's and I believe the population continued to grow for years after that, now it is declining. If it was too high after restocking it would have declined almost immediately, but the population was booming through about 2013. Then it started to decline.

 

[Boll Weevil]

When I wrote the TWRA biologist he said, they think part of the turkeys declining is that the population is declining to carrying capacity after the restocking efforts.

I think you make a good point regarding carrying capacity. In the absence of intervention, nesting and poult rearing habitat is fixed for any given property. if turkeys have expanded to fill all suitable habitat devoted to producing more turkeys, the population stops growing. This doesn't address the dramatic decline that some have witnessed, but might be part of the answer to replenishing birds year over year.

A goal on my farm was to make it a turkey factory which meant creating as much poult production and brood rearing habitat as possible...in other words increase carrying capacity. Combined with killing nest raiders, I've seen a steady increase as the birds have expanded to fill the newly created habitat. Again, this doesn't explain the decline but may certainly be part of the solution.

 

[megalomaniac]

I've been wondering about this. I often times even at this time a year see hens flocked up, with no Tom.

This is almost always an indicator there are no gobblers in the area, they have been killed. Now sometimes jennies will flock up and toms will ignore and not join them. IF there is another gobbler without hens around, he might find them and successfully fertilize them. Hens who want to be bred can get very vocal calling for a gobbler.

 

[Goodtimekiller]

Interesting. During my brainstorming sessions trying to figure out what in the world is happening with some of the localized populations that I am in tune with, I have often wondered if their is ANYTHING going on in the wild that is making some hens infertile. This is for areas where I KNOW FOR CERTAIN habitat has changed very little over the last 15 years, and chicken litter has not been introduced due to very little farming in the immediate area.

Habitat does not go unchanged for 15 years. If nothing is going on in the habitat you are around, that means the trees in your woods are getting bigger and blocking out more of the understory and providing less nesting cover. If fields are still being kept in ag or bush hogged and the woods are allowed to age nesting cover is reduced drastically over 15 years.


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[TheLBLman]

Hens who want to be bred can get very vocal calling for a gobbler.

As can an old Gobbler standing on a high place,
gobbling his head off, but refusing to move towards a hen he expects to come to him.

Those who think reducing the limit makes no difference are incorrect.
More adult males, especially more during the early part of your current season,
leads to more females getting bred, laying more fertile eggs, and successfully nesting more.

I do agree that more longbeards surviving the early season is only a small part of the solution.
Delaying the season opener, reducing the limit, eliminating hen killing,
are all some things which can be done to help.
May or may not be enough.

We cannot expect TWRA to "improve habitat" on our private properties,
we do not expect them to control the weather,
but we do expect them to go the correct direction with the regs they control.

We DID have a 2-bird limit (and no fall hunting) not that many years ago.
As the turkey population was increasing & expanding,
TWRA increased that 2-bird limit to 3, and then to 4,
on top of starting the fall season that absolutely results in some hens getting killed that otherwise would not.

For the same rationale TWRA stated in increasing turkey hunting and limits,
why shouldn't they now reduce it?
Are the current TWRA regs "harming" or "helping" our statewide turkey population?

Many private land managers and public WMA managers have already reduced turkey hunting & turkey limits in TN.
Many did this several years ago.
This has been largely done by eliminating the "bonus" birds on many WMA's,
never mind that about the time some WMA managers did this,
TWRA responded by increasing the "statewide" limit from 3 to 4.

True, we cannot control Mother Nature.
We also cannot control the fact turkeys move around a lot, often several linear miles in a matter of weeks in a particular county, and one WMA's or landowner's additional protections may be negated by excessive hunting nearby.

We can only control what we can, and from a regulatory standpoint, that is largely how long the season is open, when it starts & ends, and what is the bag limit.

 

[Goodtimekiller]

Hens who want to be bred can get very vocal calling for a gobbler.

As can an old Gobbler standing on a high place,
gobbling his head off, but refusing to move towards a hen he expects to come to him.

Those who think reducing the limit makes no difference are incorrect.
More adult males, especially more during the early part of your current season,
leads to more females getting bred, laying more fertile eggs, and successfully nesting more.

I do agree that more longbeards surviving the early season is only a small part of the solution.
Delaying the season opener, reducing the limit, eliminating hen killing,
are all some things which can be done to help.
May or may not be enough.

We cannot expect TWRA to "improve habitat" on our private properties,
we do not expect them to control the weather,
but we do expect them to go the correct direction with the regs they control.

We DID have a 2-bird limit (and no fall hunting) not that many years ago.
As the turkey population was increasing & expanding,
TWRA increased that 2-bird limit to 3, and then to 4,
on top of starting the fall season that absolutely results in some hens getting killed that otherwise would not.

For the same rationale TWRA stated in increasing turkey hunting and limits,
why shouldn't they now reduce it?
Are the current TWRA regs "harming" or "helping" our statewide turkey population?

Many private land managers and public WMA managers have already reduced turkey hunting & turkey limits in TN.
Many did this several years ago.
This has been largely done by eliminating the "bonus" birds on many WMA's,
never mind that about the time some WMA managers did this,
TWRA responded by increasing the "statewide" limit from 3 to 4.

True, we cannot control Mother Nature.
We also cannot control the fact turkeys move around a lot, often several linear miles in a matter of weeks in a particular county, and one WMA's or landowner's additional protections may be negated by excessive hunting nearby.

We can only control what we can, and from a regulatory standpoint, that is largely how long the season is open, when it starts & ends, and what is the bag limit.

The things you mention are all things that make very minor differences. True, many small things can add up to make a bigger difference, but focus should be on the main factor(s) first. And yes, the twra will help you make your property better. You can get a local private land biologist to come out and help you see areas that can improve your land and possibly even get funding to do it from the twra and nrcs.

Twra with nwtf is trying to figure things out. There are many areas in the state where the turkey population is still doing great, so before the twra makes major changes they are waiting on results of this and more studies.

I have talked to wma managers who said their turkey populations are doing well.

We can all control our own trigger finger, even if the twra does nothing. Sportsmen always say we are the best conservationists, it may be time for tn sportsmen to prove it.


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[TheLBLman]

Another piece of the puzzle I believe has been missed regarding our statewide turkey population decline:

Collateral Damage

Let me explain.

Every time one of us fires at a longbeard,
there is risk, often unknown, of hitting a hen in the background.
Sometimes it is a nesting hen, maybe 75 yards away, taking a pellet to the head,
and we are never aware our shot that killed a longbeard, also killed a hen.

This particular risk, whatever it is, has significantly increased in just the past few years,
for two reasons. First, our turkey limit increased. That means more shooting.
Next, we have more hunters shooting longer range loads.

Should a single pellet hit a sitting hen in the head,
at how many yards would it be lethal?

Even if not lethal, the wound could cause some bleeding,
which in turn could bring predators to the hen.
Doesn't take much.

But "collateral damage" may be more the result of hunting activities than from shooting.
Our hunting often disrupts turkey breeding, activity leading to it, even nesting.
(Other human activities also do this.)

Please don't think for a second I want to sound like an anti-hunter,
but I do want to protect and enhance the resource,
and my concern is too much of a good thing may have become akin to us killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

There are legitimate reasons the KY statewide turkey season opens 2 weeks later than TN's,
and it's not just about latitude.

 

[knightrider]

Another piece of the puzzle I believe has been missed regarding our statewide turkey population decline:

Collateral Damage

Let me explain.

Every time one of us fires at a longbeard,
there is risk, often unknown, of hitting a hen in the background.
Sometimes it is a nesting hen, maybe 75 yards away, taking a pellet to the head,
and we are never aware our shot that killed a longbeard, also killed a hen.

This particular risk, whatever it is, has significantly increased in just the past few years,
for two reasons. First, our turkey limit increased. That means more shooting.
Next, we have more hunters shooting longer range loads.

Should a single pellet hit a sitting hen in the head,
at how many yards would it be lethal?

Even if not lethal, the wound could cause some bleeding,
which in turn could bring predators to the hen.
Doesn't take much.

But "collateral damage" may be more the result of hunting activities than from shooting.
Our hunting often disrupts turkey breeding, activity leading to it, even nesting.
(Other human activities also do this.)

Please don't think for a second I want to sound like an anti-hunter,
but I do want to protect and enhance the resource,
and my concern is too much of a good thing may have become akin to us killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

There are legitimate reasons the KY statewide turkey season opens 2 weeks later than TN's,
and it's not just about latitude.

I can promise you ive never killed a hen shooting a gobbler :tu: man talk about grasping at straws :rotf:

 

[UpperTully]

Another piece of the puzzle I believe has been missed regarding our statewide turkey population decline:

Collateral Damage

Let me explain.

Every time one of us fires at a longbeard,
there is risk, often unknown, of hitting a hen in the background.
Sometimes it is a nesting hen, maybe 75 yards away, taking a pellet to the head,
and we are never aware our shot that killed a longbeard, also killed a hen.

Anything is possible but dang this seems waaaaaay out there!!!!

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Another piece of the puzzle I believe has been missed regarding our statewide turkey population decline:

Collateral Damage

Let me explain.

Every time one of us fires at a longbeard,
there is risk, often unknown, of hitting a hen in the background.
Sometimes it is a nesting hen, maybe 75 yards away, taking a pellet to the head,
and we are never aware our shot that killed a longbeard, also killed a hen.

I'm not saying that it has never happened, but if it happens 10 times statwide in a year, I would be surprised.

 

[TheLBLman]

I'm not saying that it has never happened, but if it happens 10 times statewide in a year, I would be surprised.

I think it happens more often than you think.
In the instances it does, how would you know?

Just to be clear,
I doubt it happens more than 5% of the time that a hen is hit when a gobbler is shot at.
But if for every 20 gobblers that get shot at, there is a hen taking a pellet,
that becomes significant.

Most who are accomplished turkey hunters take great pains NOT to accidentally hit another bird near their targeted bird. But based on what I've observed and heard from many hunters, there is collateral damage, more often than some seem to think. Sometimes it's seen, sometimes we're unaware what was sitting on the ground 50 yards behind the bird we target.

This doesn't get into the statewide "harvest" data.

Of course, collateral damage has always been a factor, it is nothing new.
What's different today compared to 20 years ago is that our turkey limit has gone from 2 to 4 birds,
and our turkey shells are much more lethal at extended ranges, with that contributing to hunters taking much longer shots,
where they are much more likely to hit something they didn't see.

May be, this is just one more little piece to the big puzzle of our declining turkey populations?

 

[TheLBLman]

Anything is possible but dang this seems waaaaaay out there!!!!

I actually agree with you :tu:

But, believe it is an overlooked piece to the puzzle,
small piece, but maybe not as small as some are thinking.

Acknowledging that this collateral damage issue isn't new,
what I'm saying is the frequency has likely increased as we moved away
from more "traditional" turkey hunting (gobbler called up and shot at close range).

Today, a higher percentage of the birds killed are "stalked & sniped",
"reaped", and/or shot in the middle of a feeding flock from a permanent or portable blind.
And considering the longer ranges on average, more collateral wounding?

Also, I'm not just talking about birds being killed and observed dying.
ANY wounding can lead to death days later, with the shooter being totally unaware it happened.

Maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe the average turkey hunter would never shoot at a longbeard when another turkey is nearby,
maybe he would never shoot unless the background were a clear, open field void of turkeys.
Maybe this is just hard to relate to if you're not the typical average turkey hunter afield?