Muzzleloader accident??
- Thread starter ewc
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I sure hope he's ok.
A few years ago one of the local guys was helping his son's friend with their MZ. The story I heard was that it wouldn't fire, and he'd helped them get it to shoot, it I might have had a double load as well. He lost a few digits on one of his hands.
A few years ago one of the local guys was helping his son's friend with their MZ. The story I heard was that it wouldn't fire, and he'd helped them get it to shoot, it I might have had a double load as well. He lost a few digits on one of his hands.
And that's why you mark your ramrod.
Saw that. They're saying not double loaded. Pics of the kid are pretty graphic, so just sharing these. He'll make full recovery per those more familiar with the situation.
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The bullet apparently wasn't seated. Notice the bulge half-way down the barrel. The bullet base was just ahead of that bulge.
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Maybe that's what happened.
While im familiar with MZ equipment, I've never tried firing one with the bullet not firmly seated.
So that would somehow cause the barrel to almost explode like this?
I'm not sure I understand exactly how that works. It almost seems like there'd be less pressure since the round wouldn't have to be forced the full length of the barrel?
I'm guessing the gap somehow allows for the pressure to increase?
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With black powder and many subs, a projectile that isn't seated becomes a bore obstruction.
Black powder and many subs do not need or need very little pressure to continue burning after the primer ignition flame is done. Therefore, the powder would build pressure rapidly and slam into the bullet (bore obstruction), causing the barrel to bulge near the bullet base.
Smokeless powder, on the other hand, needs pressure to continue the burn. Double-based powders contain nitro. Like AA5744 contains twice as much nitro as Reloder #7. AA5744 requires less that 1000 psi to continue burning, where Reloder #7 requires around 2000 psi. Single based powders require higher pressures greater than 2000 psi to continue burning. Therefore, a smokeless ml would likely never experience a blowup like this. In my experience, a bullet that is that far off the smokeless charge would be spit out the muzzle.
I experimented years ago with incremental seating of the bullet. Depending on atmospheric conditions, temp, altitude, etc, a load may need tuning for optimal accuracy. Such as when we are at an sml meet. It isn't easy to remeasure your powder loads at the range so I experimented with incremental seating. In other words, I increased my charge by a small amount, usually 1 to 2 grains depending on powder speed. I have a micrometer adjustable sleeve on my ramrod. I fully seat the bullet and zero the micrometer. I fire that load and adjust the micrometer .025" at a time to stop the bullet short of the charge. The groups will shrink and re-enlarge just like adjusting charge weight. See pic below. I adjusted that seating depth in .050" increments to prove the theory. Notice how the .150" group tightened up.
This is similar to the secondary pressure spike we discussed in another thread last week where the bullet outran the initial pressure wave only to slow near the muzzle and be slammed by the advancing pressure wave.
Black powder and many subs do not need or need very little pressure to continue burning after the primer ignition flame is done. Therefore, the powder would build pressure rapidly and slam into the bullet (bore obstruction), causing the barrel to bulge near the bullet base.
Smokeless powder, on the other hand, needs pressure to continue the burn. Double-based powders contain nitro. Like AA5744 contains twice as much nitro as Reloder #7. AA5744 requires less that 1000 psi to continue burning, where Reloder #7 requires around 2000 psi. Single based powders require higher pressures greater than 2000 psi to continue burning. Therefore, a smokeless ml would likely never experience a blowup like this. In my experience, a bullet that is that far off the smokeless charge would be spit out the muzzle.
I experimented years ago with incremental seating of the bullet. Depending on atmospheric conditions, temp, altitude, etc, a load may need tuning for optimal accuracy. Such as when we are at an sml meet. It isn't easy to remeasure your powder loads at the range so I experimented with incremental seating. In other words, I increased my charge by a small amount, usually 1 to 2 grains depending on powder speed. I have a micrometer adjustable sleeve on my ramrod. I fully seat the bullet and zero the micrometer. I fire that load and adjust the micrometer .025" at a time to stop the bullet short of the charge. The groups will shrink and re-enlarge just like adjusting charge weight. See pic below. I adjusted that seating depth in .050" increments to prove the theory. Notice how the .150" group tightened up.
This is similar to the secondary pressure spike we discussed in another thread last week where the bullet outran the initial pressure wave only to slow near the muzzle and be slammed by the advancing pressure wave.
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Exactly what I figured happened, essentially built a bomb. I can see that happening easily with a kid in a hurry trying to reload and get a second shot off, especially that last inch of pushing/seating where the resistance is very noticeable.
PillsburyDoughboy
Well-Known Member
Crud ring ? Thought it was seated and it was not possibly ? 777 is the worst about that.
That was kind of what I figured as well with seeing that pic. Guessing the gases hit the bullet nearly half way up the barrel and that pressure blew the breech end.
Hope the kid is ok.
Omega
Well-Known Member
Must be careful with BP rifles, many things can go wrong.
This is something else.. who would have ever thought about trying this… ??? And what made someone do it in the first place??? This blows my mind!!
Lugs on barrel look like an Encore. Flat shattered that laminated stock too. Imagine a lot of injury came from that.
ScLowCountry
Well-Known Member
I shot a muzzleloader once with a fully seated bullet and the ramrod in. Knocked me off the bench. Bruised my shoulder.
I got side tracked loading it and left the ram rod in the barrel. The gun was ok my shoulder was bruised. I still use the gun today. I'll never do that again though
I got side tracked loading it and left the ram rod in the barrel. The gun was ok my shoulder was bruised. I still use the gun today. I'll never do that again though
jfelts1994
Well-Known Member
Hope he is okay and doesn't suffer any major long term difficulties because of this. Hard way to learn a lesson. Full of adrenaline and high on life trying to kill a deer and the unthinkable happens. My prayers to the kid.
My dad bored into me from the moment I used our muzzleloader that if the bullet does not sink down to this paint pen line on the ramrod, in no circumstance, matter how big he is are you to fire it. As I started hand loading and reading about pressures and how they work in a chamber, muzzle, and upon exit did I fully understand. But at that point I was thankful I had been told to never do such a thing. In no way am I judging the kid, in the heat of the moment and in a rush to get a shot off I can see how such a thing could occur.
My dad bored into me from the moment I used our muzzleloader that if the bullet does not sink down to this paint pen line on the ramrod, in no circumstance, matter how big he is are you to fire it. As I started hand loading and reading about pressures and how they work in a chamber, muzzle, and upon exit did I fully understand. But at that point I was thankful I had been told to never do such a thing. In no way am I judging the kid, in the heat of the moment and in a rush to get a shot off I can see how such a thing could occur.
jfelts1994
Well-Known Member
Talking about that 1,200 Gr stick sabot bud. I bet that son of a gun dang near dislocated your jaw
PillsburyDoughboy
Well-Known Member
Ive seen that video before.
About the part of the video that deals with dropping the ML in the mud or from a tree stand.
Its SO important to put a small piece of electrical tape across the end of the barrel for that reason. It also keeps your powder dry when it rains or snows. Ive been putting electrical tape over my muzzle loaders for years and never had a problem with wet powder. Ive shot a sighted in rifle with tape over the barrel enough to know that it DOES NOT effect accuracy what so ever.
Know a couple kids that used a galvanized pipe and 6 pounds of pyrodex on an abandoned car once upon a time . Did a number on the car. Folks for a mile around though it was an earth quake or sonic boom
Can be dangerous stuff
Can be dangerous stuff
Wiley
Well-Known Member
There's a post on FB by the family of this teen. Pics of him in the hospital. He definitely took a licking but it could have been much, much worse. I reckon he's supposed to recover and be OK.
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I sure hope he's back to normal right away.
Maybe this could be another reason to move towards the straight wall cartridge suggestion.
Or just paying attention with firearms.
No negligence on ones part is no reason to punish the herd, sounds like more big brother will keep you safe ideology
PillsburyDoughboy
Well-Known Member
This. I mean if you want to make arguments about straight wall cartridges its one thing. Making them in the argument for safety is just absurd.
PillsburyDoughboy
Well-Known Member
THIS! All weapons are dangerous rather they are a firearm, bow ,muzzleloader, boomerang, slingshot or Elliemays brazeere. Beverly Hillbilly's Fans will get that last part.No negligence on ones part is no reason to punish the herd, sounds like more big brother will keep you safe ideology
Double barreled sling shot
PillsburyDoughboy
Well-Known Member
Well doggiesDouble barreled sling shot
The sad truth is that some people should not use muzzleloaders. They are just not careful enough. When my dad was alive, I bought him a muzzleloader for his birthday. I showed him how to load it etc. He needed to sight it in on his own. He called me a few weeks later and said he couldn't get it to fire. I told him to bring it over. Believe it or not, he had loaded the bullet into a sabot backwards. And then, when it wouldn't fire, he poured water down the barrel. I took the gun back from him and told him that maybe he wasn't cut out for muzzleloading, since one mistake can turn the gun into a pipe bomb. He agreed with me.
Smo
Well-Known Member
You still have a few days left too use that straight wall cartridge gun..
Just like I do my muzzle loader..
It's deer season, both are legal!
