More Questions Than Answers........

[TN24081]

Sorry, this is long. Just trying to give as many details as I can. There have been some very interesting opinions on big bucks lately and to be honest I'm not sure where I stand... Here is what my scenario. I have had the privilege to hunt some great property in what is considered to be one of the best counties in the state. It's about 350 acres and family is the only other hunters on the surrounding 400 acres. Just myself, sometimes a hunting buddy and my son on the 350. The area as a whole, receives less hunting pressure than average and the majority of the hunters in the area are looking to shoot a 130" deer or better and they sometimes do. I have a good relationship with a lot of the hunters in the area and even text back and forth with some a mile down the road while we hunt. I have hunted this property for 15 years and this has pretty much always been the case. In 15 years, I have killed two deer that score over 140" gross and my son has killed one 2 1/2 year old on the juvenile hunt, then after 2 years of passing smaller bucks he killed a 126" which was awesome for a ten year old. We normally shoot two or three doe per year. That's all we've killed in 15 years. Of course in that 15 years, we've let a few nice deer get away from us and I actually passed a few nice ones hoping my son would get a shot at them later on. The 350 acres is completely wooded, mostly all old forest, however they did have some of the property "select cut" about 3 years ago. There never has been many oaks on the place but there is a handful scattered about. For the most part, it's just old big forest with probably 25 acres of THICKet and maybe 30 acres of cedar. One whole side is bordered by the thickest stuff you've ever seen that no one hunts (60 acres) which all 3 of the good deer we killed came out of that 60 acre thicket. Another side is bordered by a 30 acre soybean field that was cut in late fall. Its rarely hunted, the owner lives out of town. Then across the hill it's bordered by a big corn field that was also cut late fall. I gotta try to get to my question or i'm going to lose ya'll. - My problem is basically, after 15 years of practicing pretty good QDM, I've seen more spikes and just little scrub bucks this year than ever before. Also between me hunting buddy and son, we have only seen 4 bucks that had racks and all but one of them are thought to be 1 1/2 - 2 1/2 year old. The one mature buck I seen, I tried to get my son to shoot him but he was broke up so he chose to pass. Instead of the place getting better by the year, it seems to be going backwards. One day I sat and seen 7 bucks and no does. All of the bucks were yearling scrubs that probably didn't weight a hundred pounds. I hunted for like 2 weeks before I ever seen a doe. Since then, we've seen 14 between us. I wish I had some kinda clearing where I could plant a food plot or two but I just don't. Plus the neighbors cows stay on the place about 20% of the time. I'm not really down on the total numbers of deer I'm seeing but on the lack of quality deer that I am seeing. Why so many scrubs ?? Also, can't really afford any cameras, bought one amd it stopped working. Also, I'll add that I have been hunting for over 30 years and consider myself an experienced hunter, for whatever that's worth ! Also, about 3 or 4 years ago all of the turkey we had just left. I use to hear so many birds gobble it was hard to decide which direction to go ! But we haven't seen or heard a turkey in 3 or 4 years now. NONE... Maybe not related but anyways... Just thought I would get some of you guys' opinions and what yall thought. Do you think the mature deer are there and they're just outsmarting us or are they moving to an area with a higher number of does or better food source ? Any and all info gladly appreciated. Thanks for letting me ramble. TN24081

 

[Hunt2Live]

All I know to tell you is to just constantly feed them after season for as long as possible. This should draw a few more deer in from different places. Hope this helps you some.

 

[deerchaser007]

I would start out with 1 or 2 really good cams. Good cams can be bought in the 100 to 150 range now. Then, establish at least 3 salt/mineral stations on the 350 acres. Use corn and Molasses in the area to help draw them in. After season of coarse.place cams over the area around June and see what you have. No food and no cover is making it difficult to say the least.

 

[TN24081]

I would start out with 1 or 2 really good cams. Good cams can be bought in the 100 to 150 range now. Then, establish at least 3 salt/mineral stations on the 350 acres. Use corn and Molasses in the area to help draw them in. After season of coarse.place cams over the area around June and see what you have. No food and no cover is making it difficult to say the least.

Yea I agree, I gotta get a couple of cams to see whats there this offseason. I wouldn't say I don't have adequate cover though, I do have quite a bit of cover. Food may be an issue but it has always held deer throughout the season. With the addition of the soybeans on my neighbors place, I figured that would allow more of my natural browse to go uneaten since the deer were really hitting the soybeans, thus leaving more natural browse for the later months. Who knows..... It's hard to put this big ole puzzle together and make sense out of all of it. Guess that's why they call it hunting !

 

[catman529]

Sounds like lack of food and/or cover...old growth isn't ideal for whitetail. If there aren't many oaks then what kind of trees dominate the woods? Sounds like that 60 acre thicket is the place to be. Probably has more green food than your place. Plus the deer have ag fields nearby.

Do you think the lack of turkeys has anything to do with the select cut?

What county are you in?


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[deerchaser007]

Those soybeans are just a small portion of those deer diet. Natural browse makes up the largest % of a deer diet year round.
The turkey is really hard to figure. My turkey populations increased with my select cut, providing great nesting in the tree tops really peaked it up. But that was 10 years ago, mine is down also.

 

[TN24081]

I would Say there is a mix of hardwoods. A lot of popular, beech, elm , cedar etc. The turkeys were leaving before the timber was cut. Another thing is the grass or weed that grows all thru the woods that seems to keep any new growth that might grow from result of the logging from sprouting up. I don't know what it is but it's there til winter, even in the big hardwoods. I'll write more later, it's getting daylight and I'm bordering that sixty acre thicket !!

 

[catman529]

Good luck


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[Mike Belt]

Just on what you've described my take is you don't have the food sources to hold them on your property and your thick areas hold more value than what food you do have. Similarly I used to have an 800 acre tract of land I hunted. All of the surrounding land was timber and pines with outstanding cover and browse. My acreage had the only ag fields around with plenty of corn and beans planted yearly. The deer fed on us all year including throughout deer season. The problem was we didn't have the cover and once hunting pressure was applied they would move off of us before daylight and into the surrounding cover. If you don't have the food nor browse the only attraction your land has is the cover. If your neighbors don't over pressure their land and have both the food and cover they may be holding the deer.

As far as seeing nothing but young, small bucks the only thing I can think of is that they may have been pressured off the surrounding land possibly by more dominant bucks or it's just a facet of deer hunting. I've seen a couple of years where all I saw during part of the season was youngsters. That always corrected itself once the deer started rutting. As long as you've hunted the property you should be seeing some better bucks. Going back to your thickets...I'd concentrate my efforts surrounding them and see if I couldn't determine where and how they access or exit them off the property you're hunting.

 

[TN24081]

Thanks for the lengthy reply Mike Belt. I certainly agree that old hardwood forests aren't all some people make them out to be. Unless of course u have a lot of oaks. I tend to stick to the thickest stuff I can find from November on. Not a lot of bucks crossing thru big open hardwoods. I seen a two and half yr old buck with a doe this morning and that was it. They came in at daybreak and layed down for two hours. Nothing else yet. It just feels like something has changed this year with such few mature buck sightings. I just need to get me a camera and see what's there at the end of season. Or two. And yea I'm starting to question if I have enough food. Thanks guys!

 

[Mike Belt]

The only people that might think old hardwood forests are an asset to deer hunting are not deer hunters. With oaks and on good mast years they may well be but otherwise they hold no attraction to the deer other than comparing them to wide open terrain. Run a couple of cameras and you might be surprised.

 

[Winchester]

Is your deer Inventory from cameras or just what you have saw while hunting?

 

[TN24081]

I did notice with the warmer weather and all the rain that we've had, there is a lot green grasses and sprouts all thru the woods. Not sure how much that would help or hurt but yea, it's possible I will be surprised when I start running some cams. I hope so anyway because my honey hole has became the scrub buck capital of the world !

 

[TN24081]

Is your deer Inventory from cameras or just what you have saw while hunting?

It's based entirely on actual sightings between myself and two others. I had two cameras but couldn't get either one of them to work last time I tried. I know I need a couple to get a better idea of whats there.

 

[catman529]

Keep in mind this year has been odd for deer hunting. Lots of warm weather and messed up deer movement. Great weather for green browse to grow but maybe your woods don't have a ton of it to begin with.


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[TN24081]

Keep in mind this year has been odd for deer hunting. Lots of warm weather and messed up deer movement. Great weather for green browse to grow but maybe your woods don't have a ton of it to begin with.

Yea Catman you are right as far as I'm concerned, this has definitely been as strange of a hunting season as I can recall. I've had a couple of people tell me not to worry about anything that this year has been odd for lots of hunters. But I just cant help but be concerned or worried when I see such a clear difference in this season compared to the last 14. I mean I've just spent so much time in the stand, I am able to see so many things that haven't been typical over years past. And maybe the fact that I've had such little success this season really has my brain working overtime trying to figure out the problem. I've gotten some great feedback from you guys and hopefully I can address some of my areas of concern, it can only make my farm that much better. If it turns out to be just a wacky year, that'll be fine too. I'm going to keep hunting til the season ends though so maybe things will turn around sooner than later !


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[TN24081]

Those soybeans are just a small portion of those deer diet. Natural browse makes up the largest % of a deer diet year round.
The turkey is really hard to figure. My turkey populations increased with my select cut, providing great nesting in the tree tops really peaked it up. But that was 10 years ago, mine is down also.

Deerchaser007 - How long did it take your forest before new undergrowth started to grow where more sunlight was available ? It's been 3 or 4 years since my place was select cut and there really isn't any new growth to speak of, even in areas where fresh new sunlight is plentiful ? I have this weird weed that grows pretty much over the majority of my forest floor and I'm thinking it may be choking out any new growth. I don't know what the weed is but it covers the ground and gets almost knee high all throughout the woods.

 

[DRSJ35]

probably most of the older deer are in the thickest part. they can slip through thickest of thickets you can imagine. I would try to find out which direction they are going to feed out of the thicket.With a 60 acre thicket there is no doubt in my mind its holding mature deer.Walk the entire edge of the thicket and i think you'll find a couple well used trails. And never be afraid to try something out of the box.Good luck

 

[muddyboots]

Two things. You need more cover and pressure. Shooting those does with a gun really effects mature buck movement on a certain property. Start just shooting does with a bow and it makes a tremendous difference. I'll get hammered for saying that but it has worked wonders for us.

 

[Vermin93]

Two things. You need more cover and pressure. Shooting those does with a gun really effects mature buck movement on a certain property. Start just shooting does with a bow and it makes a tremendous difference. I'll get hammered for saying that but it has worked wonders for us.

Do you have any theories about why killing them with a bow instead of a gun makes a difference with buck sightings?

 

[Fitchj13]

Deer hear the loud bang like people do. Deer shot with a bow will typ run off 50-100 yards before collapsing. Other deer - close by - are alerted by the fleeing deer but are really unsure about what triggered the alarm. IMO - deer associate the bangs just like other hunting pressures ( human scent, increase in atv/vehicle traffic, etc).

IMO - it has just as much to do as how you recover and field dress your kill. How much "un- normal" activity you subject the deer to - at a time when they are naturally more alert.

 

[TN24081]

Two things. You need more cover and pressure. Shooting those does with a gun really effects mature buck movement on a certain property. Start just shooting does with a bow and it makes a tremendous difference. I'll get hammered for saying that but it has worked wonders for us.

We always wait until the end of the season and 2nd juvenile to shoot the does. I appreciate your input though. I'm really wondering if we should even kill any this season though since buck to doe sightings are around 1:1. I know that's probably not right but that's actual sightings since MZL season.

 

[TN24081]

Deer hear the loud bang like people do. Deer shot with a bow will typ run off 50-100 yards before collapsing. Other deer - close by - are alerted by the fleeing deer but are really unsure about what triggered the alarm. IMO - deer associate the bangs just like other hunting pressures ( human scent, increase in atv/vehicle traffic, etc).

IMO - it has just as much to do as how you recover and field dress your kill. How much "un- normal" activity you subject the deer to - at a time when they are naturally more alert.

Thanks bro !

 

[deerchaser007]

Those soybeans are just a small portion of those deer diet. Natural browse makes up the largest % of a deer diet year round.
The turkey is really hard to figure. My turkey populations increased with my select cut, providing great nesting in the tree tops really peaked it up. But that was 10 years ago, mine is down also.

Deerchaser007 - How long did it take your forest before new undergrowth started to grow where more sunlight was available ? It's been 3 or 4 years since my place was select cut and there really isn't any new growth to speak of, even in areas where fresh new sunlight is plentiful ? I have this weird weed that grows pretty much over the majority of my forest floor and I'm thinking it may be choking out any new growth. I don't know what the weed is but it covers the ground and gets almost knee high all throughout the woods.

Had my cut done late summer, in the roads I used vetch and winter wheat to hold the soil thru winter on the roads and logging decks. I still use the logging decks as plots. The following spring I got new growth in forest cuts that first year. Of course, ALOT of woody browse came in. In areas were the tree tops were really piled up came in in honeysuckle and greenbrier. I Disturbed the soil in some areas to promote ragweed. That was 10 years ago. I'm already loosing most of that and will have to look at another cut in 5 to 8 years. You would be very surprised at deer preference at different times. I had ALOT of area that came back in sumac, and the deer loved it. I've seen deer ignore my plots of oats and clover to go eat leaves falling from a mature maple tree. I've seen during turkey season deer stand under poplar trees and devour the flowers falling from the tops, despite much better woody spring browse and fresh weed sprouts. Deer will eat what they prefer, and its differ in areas. Alot of folks hate beech trees, but I keep them cause my turkey and deer will eat the heck out of them after white oaks gone.
Here is a great reference for ya. Get the book Forest plants of the southeast and their wildlife uses. I lived with that book between 2003 and 2009, before and after my cut. It really helps with identification of crap, simi good, and really good browse.
I can't tell you for sure what your weed is without seeing it, but have a feeling I know. Can't remember name of it, have to look up. But I called it mountain weed. And it will choke out valuable browse. And spreads terrible from very small seedlings.

 

[muddyboots]

Two things. You need more cover and pressure. Shooting those does with a gun really effects mature buck movement on a certain property. Start just shooting does with a bow and it makes a tremendous difference. I'll get hammered for saying that but it has worked wonders for us.

Do you have any theories about why killing them with a bow instead of a gun makes a difference with buck sightings?

My theory is the does feel more secure on our properties and move more in the daylight. And we have more does on our property and I think bucks gravitate to the highest concentration of does around. After bow season does are safe on our property and they seem to know it.

 

[muddyboots]

The farm adjacent to us shoot several does. They complain constant about deer sighting while we see lots of deer most every sit. Be it right or wrong I guess we let someone else do the dirty work. Lol.

 

[Oldiron]

Ok this is my take. You got the cover, they are probably there. You deacribed some thick thickets. They are in there browsing. The other thing maybe is you got other hunters wearing out your resident does as they stray off property. The survivors are translating that learned fear of ingrained hunter pressure to the other deer.
Thats my take

 

[TN24081]

Ok this is my take. You got the cover, they are probably there. You deacribed some thick thickets. They are in there browsing. The other thing maybe is you got other hunters wearing out your resident does as they stray off property. The survivors are translating that learned fear of ingrained hunter pressure to the other deer.
Thats my take

Thanks, I hope you are right !