More Public opens for West TN

[Antler Daddy]

This was part of Ames Plantation till a sale. TN Agriculture currently owns it. Commissioner Cox says there is not any deer on it because CWD killed them all.

 

[swampbadger]

Nope not a single deer on it. Don't even bother looking at this deer season…

 

[BSK]

This was part of Ames Plantation till a sale. TN Agriculture currently owns it. Commissioner Cox says there is not any deer on it because CWD killed them all.

...or the CWD harvest regulations killed them all.

I would like one county in the CWD hot zone to go back to the same regulations as the rest of the state and see what happens.

 

[MickThompson]

...or the CWD harvest regulations killed them all.

I would like one county in the CWD hot zone to go back to the same regulations as the rest of the state and see what happens.

Short of replacement bucks and earn a buck, didn't they all go back to the same bag and dates as adjacent counties?

 

[BSK]

Short of replacement bucks and earn a buck, didn't they all go back to the same bag and dates as adjacent counties?

I would do away with any regulation that allowed the killing of extra deer (buck or doe) beyond the statewide regs, in that one county. Give it a couple of years. What happens to the deer population and buck age structure? How does the prevenance of CWD change?

Maybe the problems being reported in those counties are the result of the CWD regulations and maybe they are the result of the CWD. I would like to know which is having the greatest effect.

 

[Andy S.]

Many of us are very familiar with every inch of that 5,500 acres. I can tell you that I'm not overly excited for the deer hunting opportunities on it, but I'm ecstatic for an extra 5,500 acres to roam on when the time is right.

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

I would do away with any regulation that allowed the killing of extra deer (buck or doe) beyond the statewide regs, in that one county. Give it a couple of years. What happens to the deer population and buck age structure? How does the prevenance of CWD change?

Maybe the problems being reported in those counties are the result of the CWD regulations and maybe they are the result of the CWD. I would like to know which is having the greatest effect.

Easy BSK

You'll get blasted on here for such an opinion. Ames deer die at a faster rate than anywhere else CWD has ever been found. Those regs had nothing to do with it. . Only Midwest herds with CWD for 30 years can quickly recover from EHD and bad regulations.

 

[MickThompson]

I would do away with any regulation that allowed the killing of extra deer (buck or doe) beyond the statewide regs, in that one county. Give it a couple of years. What happens to the deer population and buck age structure? How does the prevenance of CWD change?

Maybe the problems being reported in those counties are the result of the CWD regulations and maybe they are the result of the CWD. I would like to know which is having the greatest effect.

That area will still be excluded from deer baiting- might be an interesting experiment

 

[Andy S.]

...or the CWD harvest regulations killed them all.

I would like one county in the CWD hot zone to go back to the same regulations as the rest of the state and see what happens.

Regs do not kill deer, regs simply convey opportunity if one so chooses to take advantage of the additional opportunity. Fayette and Hardeman counties have seen the lowest kill data ever over the last 5 years. Harvest reports are your friend. Quick look at high level rough numbers: Fayette and Hardeman (CWD ground zero) killed 6k annually 2006 timeframe, 5k each 2010, 4k each 2018 right before CWD was detected, 3k each in 2022, and 2500 each last fall. Wide open regulations to kill all you want did not result in that at all.

 

[backyardtndeer]

Kill em all mentality, to slow the spread, likely was a much bigger influence on the herd than cwd itself....

 

[BSK]

Regs do not kill deer, regs simply convey opportunity if one so chooses to take advantage of the additional opportunity. Fayette and Hardeman counties have seen the lowest kill data ever over the last 5 years. Harvest reports are your friend. Quick look at high level rough numbers: Fayette and Hardeman (CWD ground zero) killed 6k annually 2006 timeframe, 5k each 2010, 4k each 2018 right before CWD was detected, 3k each in 2022, and 2500 each last fall. Wide open regulations to kill all you want did not result in that at all.

Except lots of counties look exactly the same way. I have the data books showing 6,000 bucks being killed per year out of Hickman County. What are the totals now? 1,405 last year. EVERYWHERE in West and Middle TN has seen this, CWD or no CWD. The fact the harvests have declined prove nothing. I want a side-by-side comparison between two high CWD-prevalence counties, one with CWD regulations and the other without. And I want hard data. I want to see the buck age structure and how it changes. I want to see the adult sex ratio and how it changes.

Personally, I question whether CWD is the primary cause of the decline in buck age structure so many hunters have talked about in these "hot zone" areas. It most certainly could be the cause. And then again, it may not be.

 

[Andy S.]

Kill em all mentality, to slow the spread, likely was a much bigger influence on the herd than cwd itself....

Except no one killed them all, when you look at the harvest data. With that said, I do agree "lead poisoning" is a far worst killer in the "near term" when compared with CWD. To my knowledge, more hunters abandoned those counties and the hunters that remained definitively did not "kill them all". Many of the ones I know that still hunt at CWD ground zero will only shoot a mature buck to mount now. No interest in does for management, does for eating, etc.

 

[BSK]

Many of the ones I know that still hunt at CWD ground zero will only shoot a mature buck to mount now. No interest in does for management, does for eating, etc.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the trend again - and I'm just as much to blame as anybody. We seriously backed off our doe harvest a few years ago. But if you look all across Middle and West TN, buck kills outnumber doe kills and have for several years.

 

[killingtime 41]

Lots of folks won't eat deer with cwd or the potential keeps people from either not hunting in those counties. Or just killing a mature buck to hang on the wall. I don't currently live in a cwd county. But for so many years of my younger life and coming up hunting doe's were off limits. So on public I still sometimes restrain myself from killing one. Then when I get determined to I don't see any.

 

[hammer33]

I would also like to know the kill/cull rate in those CWD counties. Meaning the number of deer that get shot, and the hunter/farmer/manager decides not to check them in.

The WMA I hunt in LA each winter has dead hogs laying all over after a Rifle hunt weekend. A lot do get reported and show in the harvest numbers but an awful lot are left to rot and aren't reported.
With the CWD "kill em all" regs it creates an atmosphere where check in less likely.
Why bother checking them in if they want hunters to shoot them all?

 

[Antler Daddy]

Except lots of counties look exactly the same way. I have the data books showing 6,000 bucks being killed per year out of Hickman County. What are the totals now? 1,405 last year. EVERYWHERE in West and Middle TN has seen this, CWD or no CWD. The fact the harvests have declined prove nothing. I want a side-by-side comparison between two high CWD-prevalence counties, one with CWD regulations and the other without. And I want hard data. I want to see the buck age structure and how it changes. I want to see the adult sex ratio and how it changes.

Personally, I question whether CWD is the primary cause of the decline in buck age structure so many hunters have talked about in these "hot zone" areas. It most certainly could be the cause. And then again, it may not be.

Yes, I remember when Hickman County was the deer capital. Why do you think the kill decreased so much? Lack of access from less hunters? The clearcuts matured? EHD kill-off without recovery? Curious for your thoughts....

 

[MickThompson]

Yes, I remember when Hickman County was the deer capital. Why do you think the kill decreased so much? Lack of access from less hunters? The clearcuts matured? EHD kill-off without recovery? Curious for your thoughts....

Not BSK, but I grew up there. Hickman used to have 10s of thousands of acres of paper company land that's all in private leases.

The biggest factor though, is that the rest of the state has "caught up" for the most part. The East Tennessee crowds drive an hour tops now instead of 3+ to get to good deer hunting.

 

[BSK]

Yes, I remember when Hickman County was the deer capital. Why do you think the kill decreased so much? Lack of access from less hunters? The clearcuts matured? EHD kill-off without recovery? Curious for your thoughts....

I think lower hunters numbers. I do think the population is lower in Hickman County than it was during those monster buck kill years - primarily because of two major EHD outbreaks - but I just think there is far less open land (all the timber company land everyone was hunting got sold off to private owners, who limit access), and far fewer East TN hunters coming West. That's what happened in adjoining Humphreys County. Less land open to the public, and fewer hunters traveling West.

 

[Andy S.]

Concur with both above. My good friend controls/hunts roughly 2k acres in Hickman. Back in the day public land provided THOUSANDS of acres of access to trigger happy deer hunters/killers from all over. Now that land is gated from private ownership and you hear very very few rifle shots compared to the 90s/2000s.

 

[BSK]

Concur with both above. My good friend controls/hunts roughly 2k acres in Hickman. Back in the day public land provided THOUSANDS of acres of access to trigger happy deer hunters/killers from all over. Now that land is gated from private ownership and you hear very very few rifle shots compared to the 90s/2000s.

It's shockingly quiet on opening weekend of gun season. Far fewer hunters being very picky about what they shoot.

 

[hammer33]

It's shockingly quiet on opening weekend of gun season. Far fewer hunters being very picky about what they shoot.

If this is the case, then is TWRA using the wrong metric (deer harvest) to measure the deer herd?

 

[BSK]

If this is the case, then is TWRA using the wrong metric (deer harvest) to measure the deer herd?

That started the minute some hunters began to practice any type of buck harvest restraint based on buck age. You cannot use harvest numbers to judge deer population if some hunters are not shooting the first deer of opportunity.

 

[Andy S.]

You cannot use harvest numbers to judge deer population if some hunters are not shooting the first deer of opportunity.

Which is true for A LOT of hunters these days. My wife says I am a "deer watcher", not a "deer hunter". The work starts once a hunter pulls the trigger, and with so many busy with other commitments these days, MANY deer get a pass until a "better opportunity" for the hunter comes along. Better opportunity as in "less competing things to do" when the hunt ends. There have been hundreds of days I hunted that my schedule was so tight that only a REALLY good mature buck was an option. I just had too much to get to later in the day to shoot a solid buck, my doe or my two does for the freezer that day. I hunt alone majority of the time so that influences how often and when I pull the trigger as well, which is rare compared to the number of hours in the woods.

 

[BSK]

Which is true for A LOT of hunters these days. My wife says I am a "deer watcher", not a "deer hunter". The work starts once a hunter pulls the trigger, and with so many busy with other commitments these days, MANY deer get a pass until a "better opportunity" for the hunter comes along. Better opportunity as in "less competing things to do" when the hunt ends. There have been hundreds of days I hunted that my schedule was so tight that only a REALLY good mature buck was an option. I just had too much to get to later in the day to shoot a solid buck, my doe or my two does for the freezer that day. I hunt alone majority of the time so that influences how often and when I pull the trigger as well, which is rare compared to the number of hours in the woods.

I believe we're at the point where MOST hunters are picky about what they shoot. Because of this, new ways of estimating the deer population are required. However, I have no idea how the agency is attempting this.

I wish the agency had kept up with the thermal imaging studies. If they had, we would have years of solid data to analyze. Although I realize these practices had to be very employee time intensive.

 

[tellico4x4]

Which is true for A LOT of hunters these days. My wife says I am a "deer watcher", not a "deer hunter".

Believe hunter age has something to do with it too. Many of us have experienced the evolution of deer hunting over the past 50+ years. How many more bucks do I need to kill? Zero, and this year is the 3rd season in a row that I didn't lift my rifle to look at buck through my scope. Binos yes, scope no.

I have opportunities to kill mature bucks each year, but usually choose not to do so. Now, I enjoy picking out one or two special bucks to hunt each season, and the rest get a pass. I still shoot a doe or two for freezer each year. Spend over 60 days each year at camp & sleep in my fair share of mornings

 

[BigAl]

Its my opinion the Unit L regs killed far more deer than the CWD regs. By the time CWD was detected, which was in mostly unit L counties, the population decline was already underway in the area and counties surrounding Ames.

 

[BSK]

Its my opinion the Unit L regs killed far more deer than the CWD regs. By the time CWD was detected, which was in mostly unit L counties, the population decline was already underway in the area and counties surrounding Ames.

In the Unit L counties in my area, a combination of Unit L harvests and the big 2007 EHD outbreak knocked the population down, as well as greatly reduced the daylight activity of does. This caused hunters to believe the populations were as low as their deer sightings were. The deer population was lower, but not as low as hunters believed it to be. But this belief system caused hunters to stop shooting does, which allowed the population to rebound. I would have to look at the harvest records, but I believe my area has been seeing more bucks killed than does for a number of years. And although not back to pre-2007 levels, the population is burgeoning.

 

[Solo Hunter]

Its my opinion the Unit L regs killed far more deer than the CWD regs. By the time CWD was detected, which was in mostly unit L counties, the population decline was already underway in the area and counties surrounding Ames.

I agree with you on that along with the depredation permits handed out like candy. CWD came along later in my opinion.

 

[BSK]

In the Unit L counties in my area, a combination of Unit L harvests and the big 2007 EHD outbreak knocked the population down, as well as greatly reduced the daylight activity of does. This caused hunters to believe the populations were as low as their deer sightings were. The deer population was lower, but not as low as hunters believed it to be. But this belief system caused hunters to stop shooting does, which allowed the population to rebound. I would have to look at the harvest records, but I believe my area has been seeing more bucks killed than does for a number of years. And although not back to pre-2007 levels, the population is burgeoning.

I'm not a surveyor, so I'm not familiar with some of their processes. I've seen survey "calls" on a deed (distance and direction from one point to another) that are so accurate that once I compensate for magnetic north declination (the difference between magnetic north and true north) I can shoot from one corner point to the next with a good compass and be right on the money. And then again, I've seen surveys that when you connect all the calls, it makes a correctly shaped property outline, but it is heavily skewed in one direction. In essence, I had to rotate the entire property outline 20 degrees or more to get it to line up with the actual corners. I have no idea why this happens. But it might be the projection measurements they are using (State Plane versus Universal Transverse Mercator, etc.).

And when looking at the distance measurements of survey/deed calls, you have to factor in elevation changes. A survey distance is the base of a right triangle. Survey distances are if the world is perfectly flat. They are not ground measurements across hills. If the ground surface slopes, then what the surveyor is measuring across the ground is the hypotenuse of the triangle, which is going to be longer than the base of the triangle. Modern survey transits have computers in them that calculate all of this for you, but without one the computations take you back to high school geometry (calculating the base of a right triangle). For example, if the survey call says a corner is 500 feet away, yet you are measuring up a 10 degree slope, then the ground measurement will be 507.7 feet to that corner point.

 

[easy45]

...or the CWD harvest regulations killed them all.

I would like one county in the CWD hot zone to go back to the same regulations as the rest of the state and see what happens.

You are dead on, Ames had a bigger impact on that local deer herd than CWD ever could have. They over harvested and high graded bucks long before CWD became a thing in the area. I've hunted the area for 23 years, when Ames became a club the local herd population started dropping.