logging?

[RAFI]

i was talking to a buddy about logging some land.Not sure if it is worth it.I know it all depends on what timber is on a property . just trying to get an idea what an average piece of land say 50 acres would bring to the land owner?


he is not thinking of having it clear cut.mostly having the mature timber harvested.i have no idea so thought I would post it here to see if anyone has a guess what the average price might be.I have heard prices were down.

 

[Football Hunter]

might want to get a local forrestr to look at it to get an Idea

 

[RAFI]

probably a good idea.he was just trying to get a starting number to see if it's worth the trouble of doing it.

 

[Chaneylake]

sell it on a sealed bid, if you are into future timber dollars then cut 20 inches and larger, if future is no concern and you want thick habitat, then rape the property, aka cut anything that will sell

timber prices are in the gutter right now

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

sell it on a sealed bid, if you are into future timber dollars then cut 20 inches and larger, if future is no concern and you want thick habitat, then rape the property, aka cut anything that will sell

timber prices are in the gutter right now

Ditto, but I would cut 18 inches or larger.

 

[BSK]

sell it on a sealed bid, if you are into future timber dollars then cut 20 inches and larger, if future is no concern and you want thick habitat, then rape the property, aka cut anything that will sell

timber prices are in the gutter right now

Ditto, but I would cut 18 inches or larger.

The problem is, many properties have been cut so many times, they have little timber of that size.

 

[BSK]

I'm going for areas of "thick and narly." I want cover in a few years. I'm having small patches (3-5 acres) cut down to 12" DBH for white, red and black oak. Every other species can go to any size. For me, the perfect cut is nothing left standing except white, red and black oak 12" and under.

 

[birddoginQ]

Really depends on what part of the state your in, what timber on the property consists of, and a few more factors. Depending on the property select cutting or diameter limit stuff can really screw up any future timber plans that you may have. In the western end of the state "bottomland hardwoods" resond better to those types of treatments. Where as the farther east you go the more the forests have already been high graded to the point that select cutting will either leave only undesireable species or lead to the regeneration of such. Having a forester look at the property is a great idea. County foresters are free but sometimes hard to get out. Consulting foresters cost you money. It really depends on YOUR goals for the property. I have been out of the timber business for a little bit (since it hit the gutter)but in the eastern part of the state a select cut would bring the land owner an average of about $600 per acre (some higher some lower). I hear that timber prices are still down for the most part and will be until the houseing situation improves. So focus on the land owners goals, if money is the motivating factor then it would probably be a good idea to hold off. If habitat improvement is key then timber harvests are a great way to get that done along with increasing access to the property with roads. Alot of variables to consider if you want to do it right.

 

[Football Hunter]

I'm going for areas of "thick and narly." I want cover in a few years. I'm having small patches (3-5 acres) cut down to 12" DBH for white, red and black oak. Every other species can go to any size. For me, the perfect cut is nothing left standing except white, red and black oak 12" and under.

are 12" and under acorn producing size trees?

 

[BSK]

I'm going for areas of "thick and narly." I want cover in a few years. I'm having small patches (3-5 acres) cut down to 12" DBH for white, red and black oak. Every other species can go to any size. For me, the perfect cut is nothing left standing except white, red and black oak 12" and under.

are 12" and under acorn producing size trees?

In my area, they are just at the acorn-producing age at that diameter (and the reason I chose it).

I want those trees left standing to produce the acorns (seed) I need to regenerate the forest back to oaks.

 

[Dean Parisian]

Here is a real stupid question.

When you reference 12" is that in diameter or in circumference?

 

[pass-thru]

Here is a real stupid question.

When you reference 12" is that in diameter or in circumference?

diameter

 

[Football Hunter]

correct

 

[pass-thru]

I'm going for areas of "thick and narly." I want cover in a few years. I'm having small patches (3-5 acres) cut down to 12" DBH for white, red and black oak. Every other species can go to any size. For me, the perfect cut is nothing left standing except white, red and black oak 12" and under.

are 12" and under acorn producing size trees?

In my area, they are just at the acorn-producing age at that diameter (and the reason I chose it).

I want those trees left standing to produce the acorns (seed) I need to regenerate the forest back to oaks.

In my limited experience, the trees that regenerate after a cut are saplings a few years past seed at the time of the cut. They may be tiny and unnoticable at the time of the cut, but they already have roots down and really take off when the canopy is opened. Is this not your experience?

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

I think BSK is cutting his at 12" DBH (Dia.@ Breast Height). I would cut 18" dia., 12" from the ground.

 

[birddoginQ]

BSK, after you have established your oak regenetation do you go back in and remove the seed trees or shelter trees that you left the 1st harvest. Pass-thru mentioned sprouting of saplings post harvest. This is often true of species such as maples that are shade tolerant and grow under the canopies of established forests. Oaks are less shade tolerant than maples. SO..... post harvest you set your self up to have a new forest dominated by maple and other shade tolerant species. Also species that depend on a large seed bank such as yellow poplar. There are several methods of timber harvest that are thought to favor oak regeneration such as a shelter-wood cut that sounds alot like what BSK is describing. But that sprouting of understory trees is why diameter limit cuts can be so tricky.

 

[Chaneylake]

sell it on a sealed bid, if you are into future timber dollars then cut 20 inches and larger, if future is no concern and you want thick habitat, then rape the property, aka cut anything that will sell

timber prices are in the gutter right now

Ditto, but I would cut 18 inches or larger.

The problem is, many properties have been cut so many times, they have little timber of that size.

a visit to Chaney would change you mind, nothing cut but 20 inches and larger for the past 80 years

 

[LeatherLungz]

don't forget the 1099 you'll receive for selling the timber.



why is the timber mkt in the gutter?

Is every one raping their own land and flooding the mkt?



Or does it have something to do every thing being made out of plastic and pot metal from China?

 

[Chaneylake]

don't forget the 1099 you'll receive for selling the timber.



why is the timber mkt in the gutter?

Is every one raping their own land and flooding the mkt?



Or does it have something to do every thing being made out of plastic and pot metal from China?

the market cycles just like all other markets, the dryer summer conditions of of 05, 06, 07, and 08, allowed timber harvesting in areas that are normally to wet, plus timber harvesting during the wet months was more possible, throw in the financial crisis we have gone thru and you have the current timber market conditions

aka its over supply and decreased demand

 

[BSK]

Here is a real stupid question.

When you reference 12" is that in diameter or in circumference?

DBH = Diameter at Brest Height.

 

[BSK]

I'm going for areas of "thick and narly." I want cover in a few years. I'm having small patches (3-5 acres) cut down to 12" DBH for white, red and black oak. Every other species can go to any size. For me, the perfect cut is nothing left standing except white, red and black oak 12" and under.

are 12" and under acorn producing size trees?

In my area, they are just at the acorn-producing age at that diameter (and the reason I chose it).

I want those trees left standing to produce the acorns (seed) I need to regenerate the forest back to oaks.

In my limited experience, the trees that regenerate after a cut are saplings a few years past seed at the time of the cut. They may be tiny and unnoticable at the time of the cut, but they already have roots down and really take off when the canopy is opened. Is this not your experience?

My experience is that the majority of regeneration from a complete cut is stump sprouts. And unfortunately, even a low deer density can wipe out every stump sprout in a small cut. Big clear-cuts are usually safe because of the number of resprouting stumps, but small cuts can get completely wiped out. That's why I'm trying to regenerate from acorns.

 

[BSK]

BSK, after you have established your oak regenetation do you go back in and remove the seed trees or shelter trees that you left the 1st harvest. Pass-thru mentioned sprouting of saplings post harvest. This is often true of species such as maples that are shade tolerant and grow under the canopies of established forests. Oaks are less shade tolerant than maples. SO..... post harvest you set your self up to have a new forest dominated by maple and other shade tolerant species. Also species that depend on a large seed bank such as yellow poplar. There are several methods of timber harvest that are thought to favor oak regeneration such as a shelter-wood cut that sounds alot like what BSK is describing. But that sprouting of understory trees is why diameter limit cuts can be so tricky.

The domination of a cut area by already standing shade tolerant species is a problem. I try to go back and rework my cuts in following years to remove these shade tolerant saplings and favor any sprouting desired species.

The 12" hardwoods will be left to mature. If we DON'T get good regeneration of hardwoods from sprouts, we'll at least have these trees as acorn producers.

 

[BSK]

I think BSK is cutting his at 12" DBH (Dia.@ Breast Height). I would cut 18" dia., 12" from the ground.

Again, that depends on what your standing stock of timber is and what you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying to maximize timber income over the long term, and you have a fair number of 18+" tres of value, than an 18" DBH cut is best.

But if wildlife habitat is your primary concern, if you have few 18+" trees of value, so little timber will be removed that little cover will be produced, and that cover will disappear much quicker as holes in the leaf canopy rapidly close through crown expansion of surrounding trees.

 

[BSK]

sell it on a sealed bid, if you are into future timber dollars then cut 20 inches and larger, if future is no concern and you want thick habitat, then rape the property, aka cut anything that will sell

timber prices are in the gutter right now

Ditto, but I would cut 18 inches or larger.

The problem is, many properties have been cut so many times, they have little timber of that size.

a visit to Chaney would change you mind, nothing cut but 20 inches and larger for the past 80 years

Again, are you cutting for long-term timber revenue or wildlife habitat? Big difference. A 20+" cut is for long-term timber revenue.

 

[BSK]

don't forget the 1099 you'll receive for selling the timber.



why is the timber mkt in the gutter?

Is every one raping their own land and flooding the mkt?



Or does it have something to do every thing being made out of plastic and pot metal from China?

the market cycles just like all other markets, the dryer summer conditions of of 05, 06, 07, and 08, allowed timber harvesting in areas that are normally to wet, plus timber harvesting during the wet months was more possible, throw in the financial crisis we have gone thru and you have the current timber market conditions

aka its over supply and decreased demand

A big part of it is the collapse of the new home market. People aren't building/buying new homes so building materials (lumber/flooring) is not selling well.

 

[Chaneylake]

don't forget the 1099 you'll receive for selling the timber.



why is the timber mkt in the gutter?

Is every one raping their own land and flooding the mkt?



Or does it have something to do every thing being made out of plastic and pot metal from China?

the market cycles just like all other markets, the dryer summer conditions of of 05, 06, 07, and 08, allowed timber harvesting in areas that are normally to wet, plus timber harvesting during the wet months was more possible, throw in the financial crisis we have gone thru and you have the current timber market conditions

aka its over supply and decreased demand

A big part of it is the collapse of the new home market. People aren't building/buying new homes so building materials (lumber/flooring) is not selling well.

the housing market helped to fuel the down timber market, in my area the market took its first major hit in 2007 and basically has not gotten any better since except for the cross-tie market last summer when it hit an all time high

 

[Boone 58]

I was recently told that you could figure 1000 per acre of timber if it were clear cut and was typical of white oak, red oak etc......
I know nothing about it myself, just repeating........

 

[BSK]

I was recently told that you could figure 1000 per acre of timber if it were clear cut and was typical of white oak, red oak etc......
I know nothing about it myself, just repeating........

Depends on the quality of the timber. I've seen it range from less than $500/acre to over $3,000/acre, again depending on the quality of the timber. In most situations common to TN (property has been repeatedly high-graded), expect between $500 and $1,000 per acre.

 

[richmanbarbeque]

On our lease this past weekend they looked at cutting 120 acres. Not sure all the details but it was a embarassing low figure of what they would pay. We did cut 80ish acres prior and I thought the landowners made out like bandits. Thanfully.

 

[pass-thru]

Anybody who's had logging done in the past couple of years, how much did you get paid per ton for pulp wood? I've heard the market is at the bottom. 8 years ago we got $4/ton for pine, and $2/ton for hard wood, which was probably low to average for that time period.

With regard to how much you can get per acre....if you have big old high quality logs, you can clear a lot of money per acre. Most people don't have that though. Part of the deal when they cut our place was they had to clear a hill of scrub pine. It took them a day and half, and they got one load of pulp, probably cussing the whole time. It was about an acre and that load gave us about $100. However, they more than made up for that hassle when they got to the good stuff.