Jawbone age help...

[Forcetowork]

I think 2.5...but I'm still learning.

Killed in Montgomery County, Late October.

Dressed weight 164.

Thanks.

 

[BSK]

2 1/2.

 

[BigGameGuy]

2-1/2 in our books.

 

[Andy S.]

Yep, 2.5

 

[BigGameGuy]

I sent this pic to three of our deer biologists and one professor from the University of Memphis. Here's what they had to say...

"I would say 2.5 The dentine is not wider than the enamel on the first molar and although the 3rd molar is abnormal you can see from the side view that the last cusp is sharp (at least on the cheek side) and coloration of the tooth would indicate that it was not above the gum line for very long."

"2 1/2, but I would like a better look @ the last tooth (dirty) What does the rack look like?"

"Always interesting to age deer. To me, it is a good 2.5 year deer. On the 4th tooth, the dentine is not wider than the enamel. Cusps are all sharp and the last cusp on the 6th tooth (the last tooth) shows no wear. The baby teeth have been up long enough to be brownish in color. Therefore, it is not a 20 month old deer. As you know, sometimes the permanent teeth come in early. Again, looks like a good 2.5 year deer to me."

"2 1/2" - (Alan Peterson never was much of a talker! )

 

[TheLBLman]

I'd say "2 1/2, or older."

"2 1/2" - (Alan Peterson never was much of a talker! )

If you want to get ole Alan to talking, you just have to ask the right questions. Ask him if he believes QDM is the best thing since sliced bread? :grin:

Might get him to talk about that good soil up at LBL, the black panthers seen near President's Island, or the merits of a 9-point rule.

 

[Forcetowork]

More pictures...

Here is the rest of the story...or the rack that goes with the jawbone.

Gross typical score 172, Net 166.

 

[Hillbilly Hunter]

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are you sur that jawbone came from that deer? That would be highly unusual! Awesome deer!

 

[Andy S.]

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Nice buck, he is about as pretty as they come antler-wise. That buck had a great dentist

 

[Forcetowork]

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Yeah, I took the jaw out myself...I couldn't believe it...

 

[pass-thru]

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Doesn't mean he was necessarily 2.5 although the teeth certainly would fall in that age class. It's not just the rack, he looks mature in the face and body. If I was you I'd send a tooth off for analysis. Awesome deer.

 

[jmb4wd]

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that is one heck of a deer. Ive never aged a deer before, but from body size alone that looks like a mature buck.

 

[BigGameGuy]

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B-

Since that deer seems to be such an anomoly we'd like to get it age tested by Matson's using cementum annuli. If you are willing to give us the other have of the jawbone, our agency will pay for the testing fees. Give me a call at 781-6615 if you're interested.

 

[Football Hunter]

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WOW,that is ,or could be a awesome 2.5 year old

 

[BSK]

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Doesn't mean he was necessarily 2.5 although the teeth certainly would fall in that age class. It's not just the rack, he looks mature in the face and body. If I was you I'd send a tooth off for analysis. Awesome deer.

I have to disagree. Nothing about that buck looks mature except the antlers. I feel very confident that buck is middle-aged and not mature.

Managers have to get over looking at the antlers when aging. Bucks of a given age-class will produce antlers with a MASSIVE range of scores, easily exceeding 100 gross inches top to bottom in any given location.

 

[megalomaniac]

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First of all, congrats on what is the most beautiful deer I've seen come out of TN this year! I've seen a couple with higher scores, but that deer is absolutely perfect in my book. I'd love to get one like him someday!

I have to disagree. Nothing about that buck looks mature except the antlers. I feel very confident that buck is middle-aged and not mature.

I agree completely. By the body, the deer looks to be a typical 3.5 y/o for my area. But the teeth are certaily classic for a 2.5 y/o. Did you get a live wt?

 

[Football Hunter]

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By Oct 23 ,should he looked filled out and massive,if he was an older deer,I would think sf course being field dressed could detract from that look I guess.

 

[BigGameGuy]

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He looks like a thoroughbred racehorse to me. The musculature in his chest is well defined unlike a blocky bull shaped mature deer. My guess is he's definitely middle-aged. Keep in mind, I believe Kentucky's #1 ranked non-typical was aged at 3-1/2.

As BSK said, all ages classes have a huge range of scores. No doubt, this deer is in the top .01% of his age class.

 

[Forcetowork]

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Mega - Didn't get a live wt only dressed - 164.

The deer's body structure was very small. The form that he is being mounted on was the shortest eye to nose measurement that the form was made in. I have several jawbones out of 3.5 year old deer that I have taken and this jaw is nearly 1" shorter than the smallest 3.5 jawbone that I have. Another strange thing about his jaw; his teeth are set to the very rear of the jawbone (nearest the hinge)...

BGG - I would love to have him aged using cementum annuli...I was planning to go to deerage.com and have it done. I'll give you a call early next week and we'll work something out.

Thanks for all of the comments...

 

[rem270]

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what a brute

 

[Tony USMC]

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WOW !!! congrats

 

[TheLBLman]

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Doesn't mean he was necessarily 2.5 although the teeth certainly would fall in that age class. It's not just the rack, he looks mature in the face and body. If I was you I'd send a tooth off for analysis. Awesome deer.

I have to disagree. Nothing about that buck looks mature except the antlers. I feel very confident that buck is middle-aged and not mature.

Managers have to get over looking at the antlers when aging. Bucks of a given age-class will produce antlers with a MASSIVE range of scores, easily exceeding 100 gross inches top to bottom in any given location.

I agree with BSK that this buck doesn't look "mature", but this one also doesn't look like a 2 1/2, either.

I'll bet you a dollar against a donut the test comes back saying he's closer to 3 1/2 than 2 1/2. In the meantime I agree it's possible he's only 2 1/2, possible he's 3 1/2, and possible we'll never know which.

Personally, I have little faith in the cementum annuli method being any more accurate than a panel of experienced agers examining the jawbone. But if Matson's says it only 2 1/2, I'll agree that was probably this bucks age.

 

[pass-thru]

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by mature, I meant 3.5. His face could go older imo, his does not look older than 3.5....and with that jawbone, which looks on the young side of 2.5, I would be amazed if he was older than 3.5

 

[TheLBLman]

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by mature, I meant 3.5.

Just as a sidenote, this term "mature" (as well as "older buck") has caused much confusion, since it seems to have some varying definitions, depending on who you ask and context used.

I used to think buck "maturity" began at 4 1/2, but a buck really wasn't fully "mature" until he was 5 1/2 or older. To me, an "old" buck was synonmous to "mature". Then I found out that many data sets were labeling mature bucks at "3 1/2 or older", and even our statewide deer harvest data set was officially labeling 2 1/2-yr-old bucks as "older" bucks.

Certain commonly used words seemingly have very different meanings with each context used. Kind of like the word "liberal" when used in everyday conversation, i.e. "We have a very liberal opportunity to take antlerless deer in much of Tennessee. Used in politics, "liberal" often means increased regulations and less personal freedoms, i.e. most liberal politicians want more government laws to define and restrict (such as more gun control laws).

Back on topic, the buck depicted in above pics looks "older" than 2 1/2, but not "mature".
(His teeth "look" 2 1/2, his body looks "older".)
"Middle-Aged" buck?
Wouldn't most consider that a 3 1/2?

 

[BSK]

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Just for the record, I would be shocked, absolutely SHOCKED, if this buck was only 2 1/2 years old. I would bet good money that buck is at least 3 1/2 years old, if not older. But I have to approach record-keeping from a purely scientific/statistical standpoint, and that requires consistancy. For data to mean anything, the methodology of collecting that data must be consistent. In a harvest data set, that buck has to go down as 2 1/2 because that's what our standard methodology--tooth-wear--indicates.

 

[BSK]

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by mature, I meant 3.5.

Just as a sidenote, this term "mature" (as well as "older buck") has caused much confusion, since it seems to have some varying definitions, depending on who you ask and context used.

Hunters use all sorts of different terms for the same age-classes. But I use the terminology most often used in scientific discussions, publications, and presentations. Perhaps terminology has changed in the last 2 or 3 years, but the terms I've seen most often in the scientific literature are:

Yearling = 1 1/2 year-old
Mature = 4 1/2+
"Older bucks" = any buck older than a yearling (2 1/2+)
"Middle-aged bucks" = 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year-old bucks

 

[TheLBLman]

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Thanks, BSK.

And have you noticed how so many hunters refer to fawns as "yearlings"?

I commonly hear a hunter say something like, "All I saw was a doe and two yearlings" when it was a doe and two fawns. Hunters also commonly refer to a button buck as a "yearling", when it is instead a "fawn".

If I'm thinking correctly, a fawn is any deer less than a year old? And a "yearling" is any deer over a year old but less than 2 years of age?

 

[BSK]

Re: More pictures...

Thanks, BSK.

And have you noticed how so many hunters refer to fawns as "yearlings"?

I commonly hear a hunter say something like, "All I saw was a doe and two yearlings" when it was a doe and two fawns. Hunters also commonly refer to a button buck as a "yearling", when it is instead a "fawn".

If I'm thinking correctly, a fawn is any deer less than a year old? And a "yearling" is any deer over a year old but less than 2 years of age?

The term I hear most often mis-used is "yearling." A "yearling" is a deer that is between his/her first and second birthdays. A deer that is less than a year old is a fawn.

 

[TheLBLman]

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And a "button" buck is NOT a "yearling" buck.

 

[BSK]

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And a "button" buck is NOT a "yearling" buck.

Exactly. A button buck is a male fawn.