Is he 4.5? (jawbone pics added)

[Tn Joe]

 

[TheLBLman]

Re: Is he 4.5?

4 1/2 or older.

 

[JKC]

Re: Is he 4.5?

I thank so too.

 

[Matador]

Re: Is he 4.5?

Yeah I think so.

 

[Triple_H]

Re: Is he 4.5?

I would say yes

 

[rem270]

Re: Is he 4.5?

At least.

 

[Tn Joe]

Re: Is he 4.5?

Thanks for your opinion guys. I killed him Sat morning, will get some jaw bone pic posted when I get a chance.

 

[Andy S.]

Re: Is he 4.5?

4 1/2 or older.

x2, congrats on the kill!

 

[cbhunter]

Re: Is he 4.5?

Congrats! did you weigh him?

 

[Tn Joe]

Re: Is he 4.5?

 

[TheLBLman]

Do you still have that jawbone?

Those particular pics don't show the detail I'd like to see.
If you still have the jawbone, clean it up a bit with some borax, then take another pic or two looking down at the top of the teeth, as well as from about a 45 degree angle. That's still no where near as good as just having the jawbone in your hand, but could be very helpful on this one.

Are you positive that jaw bone is from your deer?

 

[Tn Joe]

LBL Man, I don't have any borax on hand so I tried cleaning it up with the hosepipe.

 

[TheLBLman]

OK, reason I asked if you were certain that jawbone was from your deer is because in the "live" pic I really thought he looked like a 4 1/2 or older buck. But neither side of this jawbone (often one side looks older than the other) appears that old.

Just based on that jawbone, he would appear no older than 3 1/2, and some would say (based on the jawbone) 2 1/2.
There is a tendency to underage (via jawbones) on 2 1/2 and older bucks, but typically by no more than a year on 2 1/2-yr-old bucks.

Did you remove that jawbone yourself?

 

[Tn Joe]

Yes sir I removed the jaw bone myself. I believe this buck is 5.5

2 yrs ago a buck showed up I believe was 3.5. I never laid eyes on him.


Last yr at 4.5 he really blew up!



On Dec 15 I got a shot at him but never recovered him. After season I poured corn out hoping that if he make it I'd get a pic and did. I'd hit him across the top of the back.



When I started getting pics of this buck this summer I was suspicious that it maybe the same deer.



Last Sat morning we crossed paths again.



His back had healed up nicely but I did find scar tissue in the backstrip

 

[Andy S.]

Just based on that jawbone, he would appear no older than 3 1/2, and some would say (based on the jawbone) 2 1/2.
There is a tendency to underage (via jawbones) on 2 1/2 and older bucks, but typically by no more than a year on 2 1/2-yr-old bucks.

Ditto. FWIW, I highly doubt the buck you killed is the same buck with the great brow tines that you shot in the back. Anything is possible, but I can't recall ever seeing a bucks rack configuration change that much (narrow, long tines & brows to wide shorter rack with hardly any brows) from one to two years.

 

[Good time Charlie]

Sorry man but that jawbone would push it to be 3.5
As LBL stated one side is wore a little more ..if I looked at the less wore side I would say 2.5.
It certainly is not 5.5.

 

[Tn Joe]

Just based on that jawbone, he would appear no older than 3 1/2, and some would say (based on the jawbone) 2 1/2.
There is a tendency to underage (via jawbones) on 2 1/2 and older bucks, but typically by no more than a year on 2 1/2-yr-old bucks.

Ditto. FWIW, I highly doubt the buck you killed is the same buck with the great brow tines that you shot in the back. Anything is possible, but I can't recall ever seeing a bucks rack configuration change that much (narrow, long tines & brows to wide shorter rack with hardly any brows) from one to two years.

Andy, I get what your saying but he had one hell of an injury to overcome making for the lack of antler grouth although he kept the same lob sided rack. I second guested myself on my theory until I cut up the backstrip

 

[TheLBLman]

2 yrs ago a buck showed up I believe was 3.5.

I do not believe this is the same buck as the buck you just killed.
I do agree this buck from 2 years ago may have been 3 1/2 at the time.

As to the buck in the below pic, different buck from the one in the above pic.

 

[ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER]

I personally gave up on depending on tooth wear for age.I send mine off for aging now.the jawbones I had never showed the true ages

 

[TheLBLman]

I personally gave up on depending on tooth wear for age.

IMO, it remains an excellent method for obtaining good trend data, and will typically be correct within 1 year for 2 1/2 to 5 1/2-yr-old bucks. It is less accurate above 5 1/2, and one that we might guess 6 1/2 could really be 8 1/2, whereas a lab should be more likely to peg that correct age of 8 1/2.

Unfortunately, imo, you're more likely to be "way off" using a lab because of human error, when one guy's "mailed in" jaw bone gets confused with another. A few years ago the King Ranch had a collection of bucks (of all ages) which they had been monitoring since fawns, and knew the exact ages of all. They submitted the jaw bones to a lab, and in this case, they received some gross lab errors, and wouldn't have known they were lab errors had it not been the unusual case of their having tracked every one of these bucks for years, from birth to death.

Also, the reason I asked if "TN Joe" was certain this jaw bone was from "his" buck:

I've many times seen people get back a jawbone from a taxidermist and/or a meat processor that was NOT their deer's jawbone. To insure you're aging "your" deer, you typically have to pull them yourself, or at least witness it, then see that it's immediately labeled and kept up with.

You can always do both to get the best estimate you can on any particular deer's age --- just saying, no method is 100% correct, not even a lab.
But if the above depicted jaw bone in question is sent off to a lab, I'll bet you a donut against a dollar it comes back as a 3 1/2 (or younger).

 

[TheLBLman]

Deer are somewhat like humans in that some localized lines can generally have certain traits just like a family line of humans.

Some have better teeth, that wear more slowly (and this can also be diet related as well as genetics).

Ever seen a family were most the men tend to be tall, while another family down the street, most the men tend to be short?

Or how about a family where most members are genetically obese, and even have a double-chinned "fat" neck at younger ages?
"TN Joe's" localized deer herd is possibly a family line of deer with short legs and fat necks (making 2 1/2's look more like 4 1/2's) ? ;)

There could also be a contributing factor of too many unnatural carbs in their diets (from corn feeding), displacing some of the protein they would otherwise consume at Mother Nature's smorgasbord. All that corn feeding could be contributing to body/belly fat, but taking away (displacing) some protein that might help grow larger antlers and a larger skeletal frame. Imagine if we for years mainly fed a child candy, which contributed to his consuming less protein. Would it stunt his skeletal growth while contributing to obesity?

 

[Andy S.]

You can always do both to get the best estimate you can on any particular deer's age --- just saying, no method is 100% correct, not even a lab.

Exactly what my closest friends and I do for the few bucks we are really interested in, which are bucks we think are 5.5+. I typically age them from TR&W and ALWAYS place a "+" at the end of my age, and then I send off to a lab for their opinion. Cementum annuli aging has it's place, but it also has it's limitations. Unless you are well versed on the entire process, you could easily be mislead into thinking that their aging determination is the gospel, when in fact, that is not always the case. Just remember, they are "selling" a service so they will always tell you they are 100% accurate.

 

[Andy S.]

^^^^Totally agree with LBLman about localized differences due to geographic location of the deer herd. That is a very important thing to be noted.

 

[ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER]

I personally gave up on depending on tooth wear for age.

IMO, it remains an excellent method for obtaining good trend data, and will typically be correct within 1 year for 2 1/2 to 5 1/2-yr-old bucks. It is less accurate above 5 1/2, and one that we might guess 6 1/2 could really be 8 1/2, whereas a lab should be more likely to peg that correct age of 8 1/2.

Unfortunately, imo, you're more likely to be "way off" using a lab because of human error, when one guy's "mailed in" jaw bone gets confused with another. A few years ago the King Ranch had a collection of bucks (of all ages) which they had been monitoring since fawns, and knew the exact ages of all. They submitted the jaw bones to a lab, and in this case, they received some gross lab errors, and wouldn't have known they were lab errors had it not been the unusual case of their having tracked every one of these bucks for years, from birth to death.

Also, the reason I asked if "TN Joe" was certain this jaw bone was from "his" buck:

I've many times seen people get back a jawbone from a taxidermist and/or a meat processor that was NOT their deer's jawbone. To insure you're aging "your" deer, you typically have to pull them yourself, or at least witness it, then see that it's immediately labeled and kept up with.

You can always do both to get the best estimate you can on any particular deer's age --- just saying, no method is 100% correct, not even a lab.
But if the above depicted jaw bone in question is sent off to a lab, I'll bet you a donut against a dollar it comes back as a 3 1/2 (or younger).

Oh I agree on the age with you on this deer