This is only a 13min clip from a 1.5hr podcast. I've not watched or listened to the entire 1.5hrs, but in this clip the biologist covers some topics we've discussed here before with a position that challenges other academic positions.
Interesting Video
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BSK
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I realize in areas of very heavy hunting pressure (the norm in most areas) bucks can easily learn to move midday to avoid morning and evening hunting. However, in areas without intense hunting pressure, I do not see this midday movement. That doesn't mean they aren't moving, it simply means they are moving in areas that could not be hunted. They would be moving in the thickest cover possible.
One thing I will agree with: saying bucks are crepuscular - peak movement in the low-light conditions of dawn and dusk - is true for young and middle-aged bucks. But it is not true of mature bucks. Peak movement for mature bucks is definitely at night.
One thing I will agree with: saying bucks are crepuscular - peak movement in the low-light conditions of dawn and dusk - is true for young and middle-aged bucks. But it is not true of mature bucks. Peak movement for mature bucks is definitely at night.
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Strangely me and a couple others have noticed we see more 5.5 plus in daylight(ofcourse we dont have many) than we do 3.5 to 4.5 in pure daylight settings outside the rut. During rut ofcourse all bets are off. Now of course this is only a very small sampling of three guys on very unpressured grounds and mostly big timber, not saying its everyday just a little quirk weve notived over last five years since weve really gotten serious about it
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I see the same in big timber. Most of the older bucks I see are during hours when most other deer are bedded. I always attributed it to old bucks visiting the girls when they're most likely to be at home. Seems cruising would be much more efficient and productive when the buck is the only deer moving.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Below is 17 years of mature buck (4 1/2+) trail-camera data for October through December. Cameras are located in a wide variety of places: food plots, scrapes on field edges and back in the woods, terrain features, fence and creek crossings, saddles in ridge, ridge junctions, trails and old roadbeds high and low. Notice how there is no peak of movement at dawn and dusk. Peak Movement is around midnight, and then about an hour after dark. Are mature bucks moving in daylight? They very well could be, but nowhere that has any visibility. We do not set-up cameras in the thickest bedding cover because of a lack of visibility and we don't want to disturb it. We also don't hunt IN thick bedding cover for the same reason. We DO hunt right around the edges of thick bedding cover though.
Now yearling and middle-aged bucks show a very different pattern. They absolutely DO have peaks of movement at dawn and dusk.
Now yearling and middle-aged bucks show a very different pattern. They absolutely DO have peaks of movement at dawn and dusk.
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I can't speak about other properties but on the property I hunt. There are 3 factors that get mature bucks on their feet during daylight hours. The rut, cold weather (25 degrees or lower), hunting pressure (someone pushing one).
For most of the year I agree with that. But during the last 10 days of October & first 10 days of November I have plenty trail cam data showing mature bucks going about their business all times regardless of day or night or cover. And I kill a lot of them because of it.
Here's on perfect example from last season. Two very mature bucks making dueling scrapes without a care that they're completely exposed in wide open timber and at least two hours until sun goes down. No other time of the year do I see this kind of thing, but during that 20 day stretch nothing surprises me.
Is wide open exposure in broad daylight their peak movement pattern? No. They still move most in darkness and cover. But they behave like that way more during that 20 day stretch than any other time of year by far. If they didn't I'd never see or kill one.
I want to be in the tree when all of these are happening at the same time. Hunting pressure gets mature bucks up on their feet during the daylight. Back when I hunted Ames Plantation, there was reason good bucks were killed on Saturday. More hunters in the woods and more hunters disturbing the woods kicking them up.
BSK
Well-Known Member
And that's why I don't discount it. Mature bucks may be moving mid-day, but not anywhere we have cameras, and we have cameras in every conceivable location EXCEPT very thick cover. Hence, if they're moving mid-day, they're doing it in very thick cover. In 17 years, we have not gotten a single picture/video of a mature buck moving from noon to 1 PM, ever.
And when I say "every conceivable location," in a single Oct-Dec period, we commonly try at least 60 different camera locations. We are constantly moving them in an attempt to figure out how bucks are avoiding us, and they certainly do that!
BSK
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BSK
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JCDEERMAN
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This has been my findings as well. Generally the same size property and hunting strategy. Our deer aren't pressured much compared to public land or some leases.
Though, I think I do push the envelope a little more than you do as far as putting cameras in places I probably shouldn't be. However, it's me putting them there in mid October and not going back until I'm in a stand and venture to it on the way in or on the way back at some point in November. I will certainly push those buttons, though I STILL don't see anything that jumps out at me as far as mature buck movement during midday.
They just don't do it much based on our pressure. Heavily pressured land, I can certainly see it. They pattern us much better than we pattern them. They will move when they feel comfortable, period. As far as being crepuscular, absolutely. Can't tell you how many times I've gotten to a location only minutes before or after a mature deer was there getting to or leaving my spot based off pics.
Ok yall have officially gotten me into deer mode. I try to hold off until atleast July. Y'all have made me fail that objective
Here in SW TN, I've killed 2-3 mature bucks cruising around 11AM CST (daylight at 6AM). The last one was 04DEC24, 10:57AM. He was the first and only deer I saw that morning, but the exact buck I had been hunting for three weeks. I had about five nighttime photos of him over 500 acres the month prior. I almost couldn't believe my eyes when he appeared out of a canebrake walking toward me, but was grateful to see him and make the shot.
JCDEERMAN
Well-Known Member
Great buck. Andy!
Isn't it amazing when you spend so much time and effort into being in that situation….and then when you first lay eyes on him, you just can't believe it's happening?!?!? You position yourself for countless hours to be in the situation, then when it happens, it's like "why and how did he get here?????"
megalomaniac
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Giant 8!
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
THIS, THIS, THIS!
I hunt mature bucks in south MS totally differently than my TN farms.
Because they are 2 different animals completely.
But it can also change from year to year on the same property.
For whatever reason, 2 years ago we killed 3 mature bucks in late December on feed on wide open fields in broad daylight. That has never happened before or since.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I also believe that mature bucks can be a little bit like mature men.
Some get a bit confused, and sometimes do the opposite what we expect.
As to BSK getting so few pics of mature bucks during mid-day, there are some other factors that can contribute to this, having nothing to do with mature buck movement.
During mid-day, most cams do not have as far a triggering range as they do at night, nor as far as early morning or late afternoon. This is because of typically higher temperatures around mid-day. What I'm saying is that deer that would trigger a cam in the early morning, may fail to trigger that same cam from that same distance mid-day.
Another issue is we typically have stronger winds during mid-day than during nighttime, early morning, and late evening. Why is this an issue? Because particularly during mid-day, we get false trigger events from sun hitting a moving leaf. This creates a period of "down" time between triggering events, whereby our cams will not trigger even if a deer walks right in front of them. So, particularly on longer term data sets, mid-day deer movement events get under-represented.
A common trail cam setting for many users is to have their cams "down" (not working) for 5 minutes between triggering events. Just a few false triggers on a windy day can contribute to missing a lot of legitimate activity. Add to this that mature bucks (my observation from lots of mid-day hunting) tend to move best on windy days!
And last but not least, mature bucks have a tendency to run from Point A to Point B (during midday) causing many cams that trigger on them, to still miss getting the deer in the pic frame.
Some get a bit confused, and sometimes do the opposite what we expect.
As to BSK getting so few pics of mature bucks during mid-day, there are some other factors that can contribute to this, having nothing to do with mature buck movement.
During mid-day, most cams do not have as far a triggering range as they do at night, nor as far as early morning or late afternoon. This is because of typically higher temperatures around mid-day. What I'm saying is that deer that would trigger a cam in the early morning, may fail to trigger that same cam from that same distance mid-day.
Another issue is we typically have stronger winds during mid-day than during nighttime, early morning, and late evening. Why is this an issue? Because particularly during mid-day, we get false trigger events from sun hitting a moving leaf. This creates a period of "down" time between triggering events, whereby our cams will not trigger even if a deer walks right in front of them. So, particularly on longer term data sets, mid-day deer movement events get under-represented.
A common trail cam setting for many users is to have their cams "down" (not working) for 5 minutes between triggering events. Just a few false triggers on a windy day can contribute to missing a lot of legitimate activity. Add to this that mature bucks (my observation from lots of mid-day hunting) tend to move best on windy days!
And last but not least, mature bucks have a tendency to run from Point A to Point B (during midday) causing many cams that trigger on them, to still miss getting the deer in the pic frame.
DeerCamp
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I have a cell cam on a public tract (with WMA manager permission) that is in a specific area where there is near zero pressure, but lots of pressure around it. It's one of those "easy to drive by and dismiss" areas.
All last November I saw really consistent daylight movement in there, including 2 bucks in the 115-120 range.
Then I sent my brother in there last year to hunt it for the first time and he got lost a little and kinda tromped around before finally finding the spot I was sending him to.
He never physically bumped deer that he was aware of but that one intrusion changed everything about that spot. After that, everything and I mean EVERYTHING became totally nocturnal in that spot for almost a month. It never returned to its "normal" either.
BSK
Well-Known Member
This does not shock me at all. Deer are quick to pick up on human intrusion. As we walk, we are laying down a scent trail deer pick up on very easily. They will learn to avoid any area where people are tromping around, or shift the timing of their movements. I used to see this back when I would walk long distances to access a trail-cam. The first week, lots of pictures. But with each passing week (I visited cams to swap cards weekly), less and less activity, and DEFINITELY a major decline in daylight pictures.
I had to start driving to the cameras on ATV to stop this camera avoidance problem. Now, if I can't get an ATV right up to the camera, I don't put a camera there. Walking to the camera is a no-no (at least in low human traffic areas).
That's the gist of it, IMO. Mature bucks ABSOLUTELY move midday but many hunters and trail cams miss it simply because they're not looking where it happens, and it doesn't last but a few moments. Once he gets where he's going the movement is over, and a buck can cover a lot of ground in very short order. The movement is deliberate, direct, and not random. Dare I say it can even be anticipated.
Here's a recent example from a buck I hunted this past season, two pictures I got in the spot midday. This camera is not over a scrape, water hole, deer trail, food plot, or anything else that attracts deer. There's no cover in sight. It's wide open mature timber on a hillside shelf. No reason for a deer to be there except passing through, which is exactly what he's doing in both photos. But it's not random. He's on his feet because of weather change as shown in the weather charts I posted below each pic. You can clearly correlate the timing of the photos with abrupt changes in the weather conditions. In the first pic he goes from 3hrs of steady west wind to a sudden drop in wind speed and direction, then it picks back up. He's on his feet as it happens. In second pic wind is gusting 25-30mph then suddenly stops as rain begins to pour. Rain lasts only a short period then stops as wind gusts again. Guess when he's on his feet. Once is coincidence. Twice is a pattern. The other half of the trick is knowing where to hang the camera or tree stand in order to get him in view. It requires a lot of scouting & interpretation of said scouting, then scouting some more for verification. But it's a triangulation method I use a lot and it pays. Not 100% accurate every time but surprisingly accurate surprisingly frequent. It's super effective in hill country hardwoods but not as much in flat ag country. The concept works the same but the scale of movement and security criteria for bedding are both different in ag.
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BSK
Well-Known Member
My trail-cams trigger on deer at 90-100 feet in 100-degree weather. Most are set on 5 second delay. They don't miss much (at least the Bushnell ones don't).
GPS-collar studies have shown that mature bucks - in hunted environments - do stay active mid-day, but those activities were limited to the thickest cover. In fact, the distance mature bucks were travelling mid-day actually increased because they had to wind their way from Point A to Point B staying in thick cover, requiring further distances travelled.
GPS-collar studies have shown that mature bucks - in hunted environments - do stay active mid-day, but those activities were limited to the thickest cover. In fact, the distance mature bucks were travelling mid-day actually increased because they had to wind their way from Point A to Point B staying in thick cover, requiring further distances travelled.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
You and I are definitely on the same page about this.
I'll also add it's become my opinion (theory) that fully mature bucks more more during midday than mature bucks. Maybe as they get senile, they become more careless?
I think the main reason more hunters don't see more mid-day movement is simply because they're not out hunting mid-day.
As to the the lack of trail cam pics, most traditional trail cams setups over a salt-lick, scrape, or trail will mostly miss getting pics of these mature bucks (during midday movements). They tend to mainly downwind check scrapes and not use trails like other deer.
One mature buck I successfully hunted many years ago, I saw him several times check a scrape from a distance of about 50 yards, and his checking was from a different spot almost every time (depending on how the wind blew). I was giving him a pass each time because there was another mature buck around with a much larger rack.
I've wondered the same but teeter between wondering if they're being careless, clever, or just efficient. When I see it they are not nervous or alarmed but they are on a mission. Everybody has seen or heard report of a random big buck walking straight through the open woods in broad daylight as if he has horse blinders on. No apparent rhyme or reason so it's assumed he's love drunk cruising. But I contend that it's actually just an experienced buck moving from one bedding location to another and getting there as fast as he safely can without distraction. I'm still unsure if he's getting ballsy because he's a little senile or if he's just being efficient.
BigAl
Well-Known Member
How does a buck in say North Cherokee or Wayne National relocate beds if there is no thick cover to wind through between point A and point B? It's wide open mature timber for miles any direction and what little cover he has is in tiny patches sporadically dotted like islands in the sea. Many, many times I find buck beds on points and hillsides with no cover in sight, but you'd never get near without him detecting you. Those bucks live in the open. They have no choice. It's the only world they know. I'd love to see a GPS study in that type of area.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Also, sometimes deer choose open mature hardwoods as sanctuary areas simply because human pressure is higher on surrounding heavier cover areas.
Deer tend to gravitate to areas where they are least bothered by human (and other) intrusions, which can include free-roaming dogs. In open hardwoods, a deer can lie beside a large log, very camouflaged, and sometimes see for several hundred yards in every direction.
I believe older deer use their eyes & ears much more than most hunters give them credit.
Deer tend to gravitate to areas where they are least bothered by human (and other) intrusions, which can include free-roaming dogs. In open hardwoods, a deer can lie beside a large log, very camouflaged, and sometimes see for several hundred yards in every direction.
I believe older deer use their eyes & ears much more than most hunters give them credit.
BSK
Well-Known Member
We do not bow-hunt. We used to. 70% of our total hunting hours for the season used to bow-hunting hours. But we also found two things about bowhunting: we weren't very successful at it, and it really shut down rut movement. Once we quit bow-hunting and made opening day of deer season the first day of MZ, our success rate sky-rocketed.
I don't know why mature bucks move so little through huntable locations mid-day on my place. But it is real. It isn't camera failures or camera set-up. Over 1,200 camera locations from September through December over 25 years and not one picture of a mature buck at mid-day? That's not a camera location problem. The lack of mature buck movement through huntable locations is real. Is it unique? No. I seem some indications of this in other areas. HOWEVER, most of my monitoring is done on properties with VERY controlled hunting pressure. A HUGE difference exists between club hunting - where there may be 7 guys spread across 3,000 acres - and more "normal" hunting situations, where any 200-acre piece of ground may have 5 hunters. And I mean a HUGE difference in deer behavior.
A really great GPS-collar study was done on three adjoining pieces of land (big sections) under three different levels of hunting pressure, from none to heavy. They found mature bucks traveled greater distances mid-day in the heaviest hunting pressure area. But that was because bucks were keeping their movements inside the thickest cover, requiring great distances travelled to get from place to place. So I do believe our mature bucks are moving mid-day, but not through huntable locations. They are sticking to the extensive blackberry and brier thickets, where visibility is close to zero.
