Inferior mature bucks
- Thread starter hbg1
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Assume by inferior you're talking about rack development but if he's mature I'm killing him if I can.
Winchester
Well-Known Member
Only where you own and or manage enough property to be able to actually manipulate the deer herd. For 99% of us, NO good reason to shoot a small racked mature buck other than simply wanting to! Which is fine if thats what you desire, just dont use the excuse of "he needed to be shot"!! LOL
i will shoot one of the first tag if i know he is fully mature and physically impressive. as stated no biological /management benefit from doing so on most properties, but a 6.5 yr old 225 pound buck can push out younger bucks , break antlers and dominate prime deer areas so some benefit in those situations. plus.......its all about that neck anyway and they make alot of jerky and jerky is good
This was the reason I asked. Seems a big bodied mature buck would be a bully.
Winchester
Well-Known Member
They can be! We have a 7.5 yr old buck right now that has a big 6 pt frame with couple stickers, Probably will field dress 200 lbs+, he lives in one corner of a 1k acre tract we hunt and he keeps most of the mature bucks ran out of that corner. Crazy how often we will get a buck on camera and usually with minutes he shows up and you never see the other buck in that area again for some time! I put my 81 yr old Dad in there last wknd and he missed him at 25 yards. I was really hoping he would remove him from the situation!
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
It's pretty easy to WANT to shoot a mature cull on my farms, since you only get to shoot 1 buck of choice. So its the only way you can kill 2 bucks in a year
jfelts1994
Well-Known Member
I can't remember his name but a very reputable biologist with MS State who has done a lot of deer research talked about in a podcast that even in an area where you can "manipulate" the herd that there is no evidence that culling deer based on rack appearance improves the genetic pool. Citing that they have tracked deer that were sired by poor rack appearance deer that grew up to have impressive racks. Likewise citing deer sired by great rack appearance bucks that did not exhibit the same impressive rack. He states that the large majority of rack appearance is believed to be nutrition and stress based as well as geographic because of different trace minerals and their availability. Also said that bodily injuries can play a big part in rack shape/appearance as well as injuring the antlers in their velvet development stage, etc.
I am not arguing for or against what he stated as I am definitely not a biologist, I am simply sharing what the man said. I have seen him in several different shows and podcasts but cannot for the life of me remember his name.
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
jfelts1994
Well-Known Member
Maybe so! I don't know that I want to sit and listen to it right now! Haha
I do like killing mature bucks, often here they are interior to what a mature buck might be expected to be elsewhere.
deerhunter10
Well-Known Member
Since there's only 2 tags now. Sometimes we dont shoot them. But its not because we are trying to manipulate the genetics. Simply have our eyes on another mature deer.
BSK
Well-Known Member
An "inferior" mature buck? Doesn't matter, take or don't.
The only time I recommend to clients taking "inferior" bucks, it's for one reason only, and a number of criteria must be in place before I will do that.
1) has to be a large club environment (large property, numerous members competing for bucks).
2) Harvest rules must be "mature buck only" (goal is to produce large-antlered mature bucks).
3) Access to mature bucks is limited (as many members as mature bucks, or even more members than mature bucks).
If those three criteria are met, I will recommend the adoption of "management" buck harvest guidelines. A "management" buck is a low-end 3 1/2 year-old that is highly likely to NEVER become a trophy-antlered buck no matter how old he gets (fork-horn or 6-point 3 1/2 year-old). Taking out these bucks does absolutely nothing for the genetic potential of the local population. All management bucks do is provide a few extra "target" bucks for the year, takes a little harvest pressure of the actual mature bucks, and removes an animal from the landscape (eliminates his browse pressure) that would almost certainly never become what the hunters want. Basically, "management" bucks are a gift to the hunters (an extra target) whose removal does little to no harm to the deer herd (and whose removal also does little help to the herd).
The only time I recommend to clients taking "inferior" bucks, it's for one reason only, and a number of criteria must be in place before I will do that.
1) has to be a large club environment (large property, numerous members competing for bucks).
2) Harvest rules must be "mature buck only" (goal is to produce large-antlered mature bucks).
3) Access to mature bucks is limited (as many members as mature bucks, or even more members than mature bucks).
If those three criteria are met, I will recommend the adoption of "management" buck harvest guidelines. A "management" buck is a low-end 3 1/2 year-old that is highly likely to NEVER become a trophy-antlered buck no matter how old he gets (fork-horn or 6-point 3 1/2 year-old). Taking out these bucks does absolutely nothing for the genetic potential of the local population. All management bucks do is provide a few extra "target" bucks for the year, takes a little harvest pressure of the actual mature bucks, and removes an animal from the landscape (eliminates his browse pressure) that would almost certainly never become what the hunters want. Basically, "management" bucks are a gift to the hunters (an extra target) whose removal does little to no harm to the deer herd (and whose removal also does little help to the herd).
DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
Dr. Bronson Strickland and / or Dr. Steve Demarais with MSU DeerLab...maybe?
If so, both are retired now but they have been involved in some tremendous deer studies over the years.
jfelts1994
Well-Known Member
I believe it was Dr Strickland!
BSK
Well-Known Member
Yes. That's what I was referring to. Small or misshaped racks.
Here is an example of a mature deer that caused me to make the post. He has taken up residence on one end of my property. I don't desire to shoot him however I was thinking if I did maybe another mature buck with better antlers would move in to that area. I am not in any way trying to improve genetics as some have suggested here.
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jfelts1994
Well-Known Member
I got a long list of guys that would be happy to kill him for you lol. Me included but I am tagged out :(
Yeah, if that's what you are talking about, they are pretty well all inferior here.
killingtime 41
Well-Known Member
That's because 50 percent of its genetics come from the mother. So culling a buck because he has weird or undersized antlers for his age does nothing to the future genetics of the herd. In my opinion and from what I have read.
jfelts1994
Well-Known Member
Exactly, that is a point he brings up as well. You have no idea who fathered the birthing doe in a truly wild setting so it's pointless to try and control it. Shoot what makes you happy.
MickThompson
Well-Known Member
A bigger issue is yearling dispersal- the genetics of a particular buck on your property comes from somewhere else, usually miles away.
jfelts1994
Well-Known Member
A million factors go into it. Another major thing is age structure and that is something we just don't have wonderful examples of around here except in a few areas that are exceptions to the general rule of thumb for TN and obviously the occasional outlier deer that has outsmarted everyone and even he probably has some human inflicted battle wounds to show for being as old as he is. An acquaintance of mine killed a giant in a neighborhood in middle TN years back and he found two separate broad heads in him that had been completely healed around. One just inside the shoulder and one was in his neck. Joker still running around and running does just before he killed him.
That's the only reason I feel urgency to kill one. If he's in some way destructive then he's got to go. But only once have I ever really felt like needed to get rid of one. He was chasing every other even older bucks away to the point he was interfering with my hunt. I killed him and it was like the flood gates opened with bucks pouring back in. I killed the biggest buck ive ever seen on that farm 2 days later. And im confident it wouldn't have happened if I didn't kill the bully.
That all said I have hunted and managed hunting ground a long time and only felt that way once. The buck was nuts. He wasn't only bullying bucks but does and fawns as well. And he was always around. It was an extreme situation. Otherwise bucks fight and tear up antlers every year. Just part of their life. Can't do anything about that.
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If you don't want him taking up residence and pushing better quality deer you should shoot him. Not shooting him and not wanting him there makes no sense.
I think anytime you can take a mature buck it's a trophy as much as the rack. I have killed some that had gone downhill, and yes, I wish I'd gotten the chance in their prime, but when you kill an old buck with no front teeth, twisted rack, and the front of his hooves are broken off, it's still pretty cool because you don't see them often. They are old for a reason.
JCDEERMAN
Well-Known Member
I will gladly kill a mature buck with an inferior rack. It's not sexy, but an accomplishment of the mind and a feel good of no bully breaking any more racks that current year or years following. For sure on the first tag. The second would depend (for me) what else I know is roaming around the area. If nothing impressive, my 2nd tag would gladly be punched as well
