Inbreeding Question

[eastTN270]

Someone mentioned this to me and I had never thought about it, but they said "the deer in the area are so small because of inbreeding". What are the chances and impacts of inbreeding in a wild herd?

 

[RUGER]

I wouldn't think it would be too high as the doe normally chases her buttons out of the area after they are weened.

 

[BSK]

Someone mentioned this to me and I had never thought about it, but they said "the deer in the area are so small because of inbreeding". What are the chances and impacts of inbreeding in a wild herd?

None. Deer are too genetically diverse for inbreeding to be a problem. Plus they have unique behaviors that greatly reduce the chances of a doe being bred by her offspring. That is almost certainly why the process of yearling buck dispersal developed (to push male offspring far from their mother).

 

[BSK]

Now that doesn't mean deer in different geographic regions aren't smaller or larger do to localized genetics. In a region of low-quality forage, deer are often smaller in body and antler because that is advantageous for survival. A smaller deer requires less food resources to survive and prosper, hence deer become smaller. Just look at the Key Deer of the Florida Keys. They are not a genetically unique species. They are just whitetails that have evolved to be very tiny because of the limited resources available on the islands. Evolving to be much smaller is VERY common with all species of mammal trapped on islands.

 

[PossumSlayer]

Roll Tide

 

[Specializedjon]

I thought this was gonna be another Alabama story/confession

@Spurhunter how many days has it been?

 

[eastTN270]

None. Deer are too genetically diverse for inbreeding to be a problem. Plus they have unique behaviors that greatly reduce the chances of a doe being bred by her offspring. That is almost certainly why the process of yearling buck dispersal developed (to push male offspring far from their mother).

I didn't think so and I didn't put too much stock into what the person said. The only thing that got my mind thinking was that this place I hunt is the last "large chunk" of land before it reaches town. So deer numbers are pretty low and not a huge area to roam since it is surrounded by development so I thought it could be a possibility in this very localized area.

 

[JeepKuntry]

Not likely. Small deer are generally a product of poor nutrition. East Tn is a prime example where we lack proper soil. Very little farming where the deer can eat corn, soybeans, you name it.

 

[7mm08]

Not likely. Small deer are generally a product of poor nutrition. East Tn is a prime example where we lack proper soil. Very little farming where the deer can eat corn, soybeans, you name it.

Yes but I somewhat disagree as how do you explain 200+ pound average on deer in say wooded areas of Maine, New Hampshire, Minnesota or Michigan. These deer are huge and there is NO AGRICULTURE for hundreds of miles.

Look at that beast SMOKE killed. He is from Sullivan Co. There isn't much AG in that area.

 

[Pilchard]

Now that doesn't mean deer in different geographic regions aren't smaller or larger do to localized genetics. In a region of low-quality forage, deer are often smaller in body and antler because that is advantageous for survival. A smaller deer requires less food resources to survive and prosper, hence deer become smaller. Just look at the Key Deer of the Florida Keys. They are not a genetically unique species. They are just whitetails that have evolved to be very tiny because of the limited resources available on the islands. Evolving to be much smaller is VERY common with all species of mammal trapped on islands.

I get a kick out of the Key Deer. One time as a youngster I left my dinner out on the dock while I went inside to get something and when I returned, a doe was standing on the dock eating my nachos. A few years back there was a screw worm outbreak that had a lot of wildlife guys worried about the population. I never did hear what the outcome was.

 

[cbhunter]

Roll Tide

That's funny and I don't care who you are!

 

[Bucket]

Yes but I somewhat disagree as how do you explain 200+ pound average on deer in say wooded areas of Maine, New Hampshire, Minnesota or Michigan.

Bergmann's rule:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergmann's_rule

 

[BSK]

Bergmann's rule:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergmann's_rule

^^^^^
This.

The farther north you go the larger the species gets. It's about heat retention for the brutally cold winters. As an animal gets larger in body mass, their surface area (square inches of skin) does not increase as fast. This produces an animal with great body mass for heat retention but not that much more square inches of surface area to lose heat. It is just the opposite in hot environments, like South TX. The deer are very "spindly" so that high amount of surface area can cool the low body-weight animal more efficiently.

 

[Spurhunter]

I thought this was gonna be another Alabama story/confession

@Spurhunter how many days has it been?

It has been 392 DAYS since alabama has defeated TENNESSEE in football.





That is all.

 

[Popcorn]

Not likely. Small deer are generally a product of poor nutrition. East Tn is a prime example where we lack proper soil. Very little farming where the deer can eat corn, soybeans, you name it.

Soil quality can greatly affect the health and size of all mammals in a large geographical area but it's often not ag crops, certainly not corn that transfers those nutrients to the deer. Most native browse when palatable is more nutritious and more desired. That's why I tell folks to spread wide when fertilizing plots, you can greatly increase the value in a plot by allowing the border to be a natural screen / buffer full of native browse and fertilizing it as well. A plot with multi species crops surrounded by natural native browse will hold deer much longer than a monoculture with clean edges.

 

[7mm08]

^^^^^
This.

The farther north you go the larger the species gets. It's about heat retention for the brutally cold winters. As an animal gets larger in body mass, their surface area (square inches of skin) does not increase as fast. This produces an animal with great body mass for heat retention but not that much more square inches of surface area to lose heat. It is just the opposite in hot environments, like South TX. The deer are very "spindly" so that high amount of surface area can cool the low body-weight animal more efficiently.

Thank you!


How do you 'splain FAT girls in ALABAMA then ?

Sorry, I had to do that!

 

[BSK]

How do you 'splain FAT girls in ALABAMA then ?

So now we're back to inbreeding... ;)

 

[DoubleRidge]

Now that doesn't mean deer in different geographic regions aren't smaller or larger do to localized genetics. In a region of low-quality forage, deer are often smaller in body and antler because that is advantageous for survival. A smaller deer requires less food resources to survive and prosper, hence deer become smaller. Just look at the Key Deer of the Florida Keys. They are not a genetically unique species. They are just whitetails that have evolved to be very tiny because of the limited resources available on the islands. Evolving to be much smaller is VERY common with all species of mammal trapped on islands.

So a mammal being on an island would be similar to a fish placed in a aquarium.
When I think of the Florida Key deer and the Deer in the region of Saskatchewan and compare the build of their body's the term Habitat Adaptation comes to mind. Interesting animals for sure.

 

[Popcorn]

So now we're back to inbreeding... ;)

Southern fried is a regional anomaly...

 

[Flintlocksforme]

A lot of the turkey stocked in TN were from same flocks. If I remember correctly the plan in the beginning called for random relocation after they were established to improve genetic diversity. Maybe I don't remember correctly. Any old timers remember that?

 

[BSK]

So a mammal being on an island would be similar to a fish placed in a aquarium.
When I think of the Florida Key deer and the Deer in the region of Saskatchewan and compare the build of their body's the term Habitat Adaptation comes to mind. Interesting animals for sure.

Many, many species of land mammal display this miniaturization process when living on isolated islands. Even humans have done this in the past, with "Hobbit" people of Indonesia that were discover back about a decade ago. The last remaining mammoths in existence lived on isolated islands, and they had shrunk to the size of horses.

 

[Roadracer6]

I was just up in SD for a pheasant hunt for the 1st time in October. My very 1st observation, black rich soil thats not from coal=high output of crops=large critters. I grew up in IN and moved to middle TN in 2006. 1st observation was poor soil (very rocky/clay mix)=much smaller deer.
IMO, it's entirely about their food and what it takes to survive (harsh winters vs very mild winters).

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

People used to say that about wmas in central and south Alabama

Pretty sure the 100+ deer power sq mile in pine thickets was the reason for small bodies.

The old timers I grew up hunting with used to talk about going south and seeing 100+ a day on those hunts. Most being does and fawns. Bucks were rare.

Hunted with one old man that went somewhere in south Alabama in the 60s and 70s to a plantation every year once a year. They would kill 200 deer in a weekend making dog drives to thin the herd. Only killed a portion of them. Most under 100lb.

Friend of mine used to be a part of one of these hunts in Hale County in the late 70s and early 80s as a kid. Said they'd kill 100 a day. Landowner would host it once a year to thin the herd. These large plantations back then. Few thousand acres.