Hypothetical QDM Can of Worms

[stik]

i would find another past time. it should be my decision on what deer to shoot.

 

[Trapper John]

Damage. I'd quit. Take the fun out of the game and some won't play.

 

[JA1234]

Yeah I'm with stik. I shoot deer based on how they make my heart pound when I see them. Sometimes they are good ones and sometime they are ones that most qdm folks would moan and get pissy over for me shooting it.

 

[scn]

Since the current QDMA standards have been bastardized into meaning big antlers, I doubt that it would have much chance of success.

It is about time for hunters to realize that folks hunt for a variety of reasons, and that big antlers are way down the list for a bunch of folks.

 

[TeamMainStreet]

Since the current QDMA standards have been bastardized into meaning big antlers, I doubt that it would have much chance of success.

It is about time for hunters to realize that folks hunt for a variety of reasons, and that big antlers are way down the list for a bunch of folks.

^^^^^^ This right here has more truth in it than anything I've read on here in a while.

 

[feathersandfur2214]

X 2 SCN. A trophy for me may not be a trophy to anyone else.

 

[parkerxbowhunter]

very tru trophy is in the eye of the beholder if its on my property that i pay taxes on it should be my choice of what is qdm on it.

 

[deerchaser007]

Damage. You would have so many to stop hunting the population could not be controlled. I'm a die hard qdm guy,.. but as you can tell from the post above the qdm message has not been delivered very well and has since changed in direction with the QDMA. As long as qdm is associated with big antlers,.. it will face its demise. Get back to the basics and you got something! In this state you still can't get people to harvest a doe over a buck,.. until that is corrected here,.. or in any state, qdm is just a fantasy on a large level.

 

[String Music]

Since the current QDMA standards have been bastardized into meaning big antlers, I doubt that it would have much chance of success.

It is about time for hunters to realize that folks hunt for a variety of reasons, and that big antlers are way down the list for a bunch of folks.

^^^^^^ This right here has more truth in it than anything I've read on here in a while.

How exactly do hunters not realize this? There are no age or antler requirements for bucks in TN or in many other states. The "if its brown its down" mentality has been around much longer than the "let em walk" mentality.

I would also love to hear your opinion on how QDMA has bastardized their standards. The majority of the articles in their magazines deal with habitat improvement and methods to achieve an overall healthy herd. QDMA continues to provide invaluable information for land owners looking to improve the health, structure and overall hunting experience on their property.

However, there is no plausible way to impose a universal QDM program in every state. States do not have the resources or desire to make habitat improvements that would benefit hunters. Essentially, the only standards of an overall QDM program that could feasibly be implemented are limited to bag limits and legal buck harvests. Expecting every hunter to be able to identify a legal buck based on age is simply unreasonable.

Undoubtedly, imposing a QDM program would likely improve the quality of deer hunting, it certainly would not improve the "pursuit" of deer hunting in an objective sense simply because deer hunting is a subjective undertaking.

 

[String Music]

X 2 SCN. A trophy for me may not be a trophy to anyone else.

QDMA does not have an objective standard for what constitutes a "trophy" buck.

 

[deerhunter10]

We do practice qdma but as people have said the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. So with that being said it would damage the over all sport. For sure it would kill the population of hunters. And it would hurt people financially to a whole lot of people depend on the meat. While i don't and I'm not a fan of if it's brown it's down but i do understand and respect the people who are trying to provide for their family.

 

[String Music]

Main reason that I am asking opinons on this matter is I hear a lot of chatter out there in the hunting world about "QDM being something that evert hunter should be practicing" etc. When I see statements such as that, I try to think the argument through to its realized conclusion: What would the result be if every single hunter actually practiced QDM (in it "big antlers" form)? I do not see how a positive outcome is possible.

I certainly disagree with any blanket statement regarding how someone should hunt or manage their property. However, if everyone did practice QDM, the likely result would be an overall increase in age structure of bucks as well as an increase in the overall population.

It must be reiterated that the overall goal of any QDM program is not just bigger antlers. It's about allowing bucks to express their full potential by providing the best possible habitat and allowing them to reach maturity, among other things. This combination inevitably leads to the potential for bigger antlers, but it certinaly is no guaratee that every buck will make the cover of a magazine.

QDMA didn't bastardize their standards to mean bigger antlers. TV shows and magazines did that. In fact, the whole industry is responsible for this change in mentality. With this increase in desire for bigger antlers, QDMA has simply provided the information and tools necessary to achieve these results.

Ultimately, I think QDMA has increased the pursuit of deer hunting for those who follow QDM practices. Historically, deer hunting was more of a family tradition that only took place a couple weeks out of the year. Now, hunters prepare for deer season all year long. We plant food plots and trees, hinge-cut areas for cover, create waterholes, survey and take inventory of the deer herd, put out minerals, etc. Almost everything I do in the off season is related to what I've learned from QDMA or other similar practices.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but believing that QDMA is only about bigger antlers is simply inaccurate.

 

[String Music]

We do practice qdma but as people have said the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. So with that being said it would damage the over all sport. For sure it would kill the population of hunters. And it would hurt people financially to a whole lot of people depend on the meat. While i don't and I'm not a fan of if it's brown it's down but i do understand and respect the people who are trying to provide for their family.

A QDM program would likely increase the doe harvest. This would certainly give those dependant on meat plenty of opportunities.

Once again, limiting the age and size of legal bucks is only a small portion of any QDM program. This question deals almost exclusively with buck harvests rather than the implementation of an overall QDM program.

 

[bowriter]

If deer had no antlers, would we still have QDM? Consider that and then tell me it aint about horns.

 

[scn]

Since the current QDMA standards have been bastardized into meaning big antlers, I doubt that it would have much chance of success.

It is about time for hunters to realize that folks hunt for a variety of reasons, and that big antlers are way down the list for a bunch of folks.

^^^^^^ This right here has more truth in it than anything I've read on here in a while.

How exactly do hunters not realize this? There are no age or antler requirements for bucks in TN or in many other states. The "if its brown its down" mentality has been around much longer than the "let em walk" mentality.

I would also love to hear your opinion on how QDMA has bastardized their standards. The majority of the articles in their magazines deal with habitat improvement and methods to achieve an overall healthy herd. QDMA continues to provide invaluable information for land owners looking to improve the health, structure and overall hunting experience on their property.

However, there is no plausible way to impose a universal QDM program in every state. States do not have the resources or desire to make habitat improvements that would benefit hunters. Essentially, the only standards of an overall QDM program that could feasibly be implemented are limited to bag limits and legal buck harvests. Expecting every hunter to be able to identify a legal buck based on age is simply unreasonable.

Undoubtedly, imposing a QDM program would likely improve the quality of deer hunting, it certainly would not improve the "pursuit" of deer hunting in an objective sense simply because deer hunting is a subjective undertaking.

I DID NOT say QDMA had bastardized their standards. They are very clear in their mission and have really good ideas. I said their standards have been bastardized.

I could virtually guarantee that if deer hunters across the country were polled that the majoritity of them, minus actual QDMA members that have read and understood the QDMA mission, would equate a QDMA program to growing old deer with big antlers.

If you doubt that, go back and do X number of searches for the annual topic of why TN can't grow big antlered deer. Even though TN's management strategies have many QDMA elements in most of the state with very liberal antlerless hunting and have resulted in an age class structure that is right there with the big deer states, we have many hunters that still want something different because we don't have the big antlers of an IL or Ohio.

IMO, QDMA equals big antlers in the minds of most deer hunters.

 

[BSK]

Since the current QDMA standards have been bastardized into meaning big antlers, I doubt that it would have much chance of success.

It is about time for hunters to realize that folks hunt for a variety of reasons, and that big antlers are way down the list for a bunch of folks.

Post of the year in my opinion.

 

[BSK]

One day you'll luck up and shoot a mature deer if you are just a little patient.

But how long are you asking hunters to wait between buck kills? 3 1/2+ year-old bucks are not easy bucks to kill, even when they exist in harvestable numbers. I feel very comfortable saying 70% of hunters do not have the hunting skill set necessary to kill 3 1/2+ year-old bucks on a regular basis. How many years will the average deer hunter put up with not killing a buck before they give up on hunting?

 

[diamond hunter]

I wish we all had a little QDMA in us. Let the kids shoot the little bucks to get going,get that out of their system.If we want tenderloin a slickhead is a great choice. Look at bass fishing,its almost sacreligious to keep a 20" bass to eat,but the fishing is great.

 

[Buzzard Breath]

I could virtually guarantee that if deer hunters across the country were polled that the majoritity of them, minus actual QDMA members that have read and understood the QDMA mission, would equate a QDMA program to growing old deer with big antlers.

scn hit the nail on the head with this one. I consider myself a pretty serious deer hunter, but couldn't in a million years tell you what the QDMA mission is. I also couldn't tell you what the correct application of the term "herd health" is. And, I doubt 90% of the folks on TNDeer that go throwing them around could either.

In order for me to develop an opinion on QDMA being applied across the country or even statewide, I would have to know exactly what it is before hand.

 

[BSK]

QDMA didn't bastardize their standards to mean bigger antlers. TV shows and magazines did that. In fact, the whole industry is responsible for this change in mentality. With this increase in desire for bigger antlers, QDMA has simply provided the information and tools necessary to achieve these results.

Ultimately, I think QDMA has increased the pursuit of deer hunting for those who follow QDM practices. Historically, deer hunting was more of a family tradition that only took place a couple weeks out of the year. Now, hunters prepare for deer season all year long. We plant food plots and trees, hinge-cut areas for cover, create waterholes, survey and take inventory of the deer herd, put out minerals, etc. Almost everything I do in the off season is related to what I've learned from QDMA or other similar practices.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but believing that QDMA is only about bigger antlers is simply inaccurate.

I will be the first to agree that the hunting industry as a whole is responsibile for the "big antler obsession" that now dominates any discussion on deer hunting. However, I do feel the QDMA is jumping on that bandwagon a little too much. Over the last few years I've become extremely concerned about the focus and direction of the organization, and honestly, I see no signs they are backing down from this trend. In fact, I think it is getting worse. I, and a growing number of others, have voiced our concerns to the organization, but it appears those opinions are falling on some deaf ears (and the deaf ears are carried by those currently directing the organization--a few others at lower levels hear what we are saying). Unfortunately, "big bucks" are where the money is, and as long as the QDMA is bent on increasing the size of the organization and bringing in more money, the focus is going to shift towards big bucks and the money the big buck obsessed are willing to spend.

 

[BSK]

Let's suppose for a second that there were a national QDM program implemented in which every deer hunter in every state were required to participate. Your political leanings aside (i.e. states rights etc), do you think that a mandatory, all inclusive QDM program across the entire country would objectively improve or damage the pursuit of deer hunting? Why or why not?

To answer the original question...

I think a nationwide QDM harvest standard would damage the pursuit of hunting. The vast majority of all deer hunters are still "It's opening week of gun season, so I'm going to pick up my rifle and head to the woods" deer hunters. And the nation NEEDS those deer hunters. They are the ones who kill the majority of deer each year. Without those deer kills, we would face a serious deer overpopulation problem. In addition, those are the hunters who would least benefit from a manditory QDM harvest regulation. They are not hard-core serious deer hunters and they do not hunt enough (nor have the desire to hunt enough) to learn the skill set necessary to kill the older bucks a QDM program would create. If these hunters were forced out of buck harvests by making older and much harder to kill bucks the only bucks legal to kill, how long would they keep deer hunting? Not long...

QDM should always be voluntary (unless absolutely biologically necessary, like in some northern states that have nearly a million deer hunters taking afield each year). And contrary to popular belief--and even what some in the QDMA are now saying--QDM doesn't mean allowing bucks to reach maturity. It simply means passing up the youngest bucks to produce a more natural buck age structure. That can mean anything from just passing up yearlings all the way up to passing up anything less than mature. Any of those scenarios are still QDM buck harvest guidelines, and each hunter or group of hunters should set their standards to produce realistic expectations for their hunting area and their level of hunting skill (although fat chance getting hunters to accurately and honestly assess their own hunting skills!).

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

QDM should always be voluntary (unless absolutely biologically necessary, like in some northern states that have nearly a million deer hunters taking afield each year). And contrary to popular belief--and even what some in the QDMA are now saying--QDM doesn't mean allowing bucks to reach maturity. It simply means passing up the youngest bucks to produce a more natural buck age structure. That can mean anything from just passing up yearlings all the way up to passing up anything less than mature. Any of those scenarios are still QDM buck harvest guidelines, and each hunter or group of hunters should set their standards to produce realistic expectations for their hunting area.

What he said.




I will add that I think most southern states will all ways have an out of balance sex ratio and a younger age class of bucks until they lower their buck limits. A lot of people will not shoot a doe with 3 buck tags in their pocket, and a lot will shoot two young bucks and hold the last tag for a good deer.

 

[BSK]

...here's a perfect example of what I'm talking about within the QDMA. And this is just a little thing, but it really bugs me:

For as long as I've been involved in the biological side of deer management, bucks have always been biologically classified as yearlings being "young" bucks, 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year-olds being classified as "middle-aged" bucks, and 4 1/2 and older bucks being classified as "mature" bucks. However, in an article in the most recent Quality Whitetails (the publication of the QDMA), one author reclassified bucks as 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 being "middle-aged" and only 5 1/2 and older bucks being classified as "mature." This sounds like a little thing, but considering how article after article in the magazine now stresses mature, mature, mature concerning buck harvest goals, how many hunters or even serious QDM practitioners in the Southeast can realistically target only 5 1/2+ year-old bucks? I absolutely guarantee you only a tiny, tiny few. Only a tiny minority of hunters can hunt properties that can be managed for 5 1/2+ year-old bucks and even a tinier minority have the skill set to regularly kill 5 1/2+ year-old bucks (and I'm certainly not in that group). How much fun is hunting going to be if a hunter's harvest goals are 5 1/2+ bucks only? Not very. This focus on only mature bucks, and reshuffling age classifications so only the rarist of bucks fit that classification, is something only a tiny minority of hunters will ever have the realistic opportunity to ever experience.

 

[deerhunter10]

I agree we diamond hunter. But the fact is most people don't care about the rack. Which drives me crazy but that's just part of it. I would not be so quick to judge the hunting industry it has help the sport more then it's hurt it i think at least.

 

[deerhunter10]

I don't see how they are driving the culture?

 

[deerhunter10]

With out the culture there is no industry.

 

[REM7]

very tru trophy is in the eye of the beholder if its on my property that i pay taxes on it should be my choice of what is qdm on it.

x2

 

[Andy S.]

However, I do feel the QDMA is jumping on that bandwagon a little too much. Over the last few years I've become extremely concerned about the focus and direction of the organization, and honestly, I see no signs they are backing down from this trend. In fact, I think it is getting worse. I, and a growing number of others, have voiced our concerns to the organization, but it appears those opinions are falling on some deaf ears (and the deaf ears are carried by those currently directing the organization--a few others at lower levels hear what we are saying). Unfortunately, "big bucks" are where the money is, and as long as the QDMA is bent on increasing the size of the organization and bringing in more money, the focus is going to shift towards big bucks and the money the big buck obsessed are willing to spend.

Very well said. I agree 110%.

 

[Brisco Darlin]

Since the current QDMA standards have been bastardized into meaning big antlers, I doubt that it would have much chance of success.

It is about time for hunters to realize that folks hunt for a variety of reasons, and that big antlers are way down the list for a bunch of folks.

^^^^^^ This right here has more truth in it than anything I've read on here in a while.

agreed

 

[Winchester]

No go, hunting is for the individual doing it to make his own decisions within the law!