Can someone tell me how rare of a bird this is. Smokey gray hen with 5 1/2 inch beard.
How rare is this?
- Thread starter rastubbs
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megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
all depends on your locale...
in some flocks, I've seen as many as 10% of the birds with the 'white phase' gene. In other flocks, they may never express the gene unless it's introduced.
In any case, I don't have the scientific data for absolutes, but it does seem to be expressed in hens with more frequency than gobblers, so I would suspect it may be sex-linked, as are many other color phases in poultry.
Most biologists are adamant that it is a naturally occuring color phase in wild turkeys, but I suspect it's actually been introduced from selective breeding in tame turkeys. Google 'royal palm turkey' and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
Of course, you may have also just killed someone's pet turkey :)
in some flocks, I've seen as many as 10% of the birds with the 'white phase' gene. In other flocks, they may never express the gene unless it's introduced.
In any case, I don't have the scientific data for absolutes, but it does seem to be expressed in hens with more frequency than gobblers, so I would suspect it may be sex-linked, as are many other color phases in poultry.
Most biologists are adamant that it is a naturally occuring color phase in wild turkeys, but I suspect it's actually been introduced from selective breeding in tame turkeys. Google 'royal palm turkey' and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
Of course, you may have also just killed someone's pet turkey :)
mathews338
Well-Known Member
IMO it is fairly rare based on the fact that i've seen 1000's of turkeys while hunting or driving around and only seen one in my life
congrats on a cool bird
congrats on a cool bird
DEER ASSASSIN said:
Exactly.
Congratulations.
I have no clue but that is the coolest turkey I have ever seen.
Congratulations again man.
Congratulations again man.
spitndrum
Well-Known Member
With a beard, very IMO, I have seen em without beards but you lucked up with a beard Congrats!
Setterman
Well-Known Member
Color phase is very common, however combine color phase and a bearded hen, and I would say pretty dam rare.
Setterman
Well-Known Member
megalomaniac said:
Geez, not to be blunt, but the above leaves no other options. You need to really read some about color phases and turkey biology.
It is no different to find melanistic, albinos, or other color variations in all species. It happens in deer, crows, cardinals, racoons, rabbits, and yes turkeys.
However, there seems to be people who think that turkeys because they have been domesticated are in fact, domesticated wild birds when they exhibit a genetic variable.
It is naturally occuring, and is not a result of any domestic birds influence on a wild flock.
Wonder if you think snow geese are actually barn yard geese which escaped? Or somehow related distantly to the Aflac duck.
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Setterman,
Turkeys have been domesticated and selectively bred for color, size, disposition, etc long before you and I ever started turkey hunting. Heck, I'd suspect they've even been domesticated before white man came to the US of A.
Sure, color phases occur in natural populations, and mother nature is always experimenting with genetic variations, some a success, most a disaster; but mankind has far sped up genetic variations through selective breeding.
Whether the first white phase turkey occured in the wild and was since domesticated or whether the first white turkey was selectively bred domestically and introduced into the wild is unknown. There's no way to know where the 'white phase' or 'silver phase' genetics came from, but in any case, it's present in variable penetration in TN's wild turkey flock, and if it is originally from domestic stock, does not appear to carry the other negative traits often associated with domestic turkeys.
I remember well my first 'silver phase' tom I killed back in '93... he was 35 lbs, came strutting right to my gun barrel, and ended up being one of my neighbors (1/2 mile down the road) free ranging domestic pets. He was in with a flock of native wild turkey hens. Still feel like crap over that one :)
Turkeys have been domesticated and selectively bred for color, size, disposition, etc long before you and I ever started turkey hunting. Heck, I'd suspect they've even been domesticated before white man came to the US of A.
Sure, color phases occur in natural populations, and mother nature is always experimenting with genetic variations, some a success, most a disaster; but mankind has far sped up genetic variations through selective breeding.
Whether the first white phase turkey occured in the wild and was since domesticated or whether the first white turkey was selectively bred domestically and introduced into the wild is unknown. There's no way to know where the 'white phase' or 'silver phase' genetics came from, but in any case, it's present in variable penetration in TN's wild turkey flock, and if it is originally from domestic stock, does not appear to carry the other negative traits often associated with domestic turkeys.
I remember well my first 'silver phase' tom I killed back in '93... he was 35 lbs, came strutting right to my gun barrel, and ended up being one of my neighbors (1/2 mile down the road) free ranging domestic pets. He was in with a flock of native wild turkey hens. Still feel like crap over that one :)
kdxdude
Well-Known Member
looks pretty rare right now, I would suggest zesty Italian marinade & then grill over low heat until a light brown with a little firmness to the meat. Yep, that ought to do it!!
Setterman
Well-Known Member
megalomaniac said:
So you discount people who have spent their entire lives studying and researching wild turkeys, i.e. Lovett Williams? You feel you have a better handle on the origins of the wild turkey then folks like that who have dedicated decades to understanding everything there is to understand about the wild turkey?
I guess the albino, piebald, and melanistic deer which are killed/seen are actually hybrids with domestic goats being the influence. According to what you posted above that would only make sense.
The albino and melanistic squirrels are actually showing the influence of guinea pigs or some other species of domesticated rodents.
Albino Cardinals have been interbred with Cockatiel.
Mallards which are albinos or show strange white feather plummage are actually interbred with white farm ducks.
I could go on forever with different species that develop abnormal coloration. None of them just like Wild Turkeys have been interbred causing the color variations.
How many domestic turkeys are around? I know that back home in Miss, there isn't a domestic turkey that I know of withing 30 miles of my property. However, we have color phase variations just like here and the rest of the country. Sure some flocks it is more prevalent, but that is more then likely due to more genetic mutations within a localized flock.
Winchester
Well-Known Member
I have saw several hens with that color phase over the years and know where 5 different ones are right now. I have also saw several bearded hens over the years, and actually killed one this season. All that being said, to find one with the color phase, and a beard, yessir thats pretty dam rare in my book as well! One of the prettiest and most unique turkeys I have ever saw killed, CONGRATS!
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
oh, well, this might be fun and somewhat educational... sorry for the thread hijack
Nope, but I wasn't talking about 'wild turkeys' I was talking about 'turkeys'. No disrespect intended to Dr williams, and while he may be the forefather of 'wild' turkey biology and 'wild' turkey hunting, he doesn't hold a candle even to many simple-minded turkey farmers who understand better the genetics and penetrance of phenotypic turkey coloration.
Just put your thinking cap on...
The subspecies of 'domestic' turkey (originally captured from Mexico and transported to Spain, and eventually Europe in the 1500's) is presumed to now be extinct. That subspecies (if it really is a subspecies), however, will interbreed with all other subspecies indigenous to North America (save the ocellated, of course). Through countless generations, mankind has since selectively bred that subspecies into at least 50 different color variations which breed true.
Fast forward to America in the '30's... By then, we had wiped out the majority of native 'wild' turkeys... in fact, I don't think it would be a stretch to say there were more 'domestic' turkeys in America than 'wild', many of which look exactly like their 'wild' cousins.
So we all felt bad about killing off most of the 'wild' turkeys, and decided to restore/ reintroduce them in the '40's and '50's. And in the process, an estimated 400,000 'domestic' or 'captive hatched' turkeys were released into the wild (perhaps even more than the entire 'wild' turkey population in the USA). Many did not survive to interbreed with native turkeys, but some did, just as free ranging domestic turkeys have done with native turkeys for the 200 years prior and will continue to do so, even today. (Or do you actually think that all domestic turkeys are incapable of reproduction with 'wild' turkeys? Or that Easterns cannot breed with Rios?) In any case, during the reintroduction phase of 'wild' turkeys in America, there was a surge of significant infusion of 'domestic' genetics in many locales.
Now I will grant you that the 'silver phase', 'melanistic phase' or erythristic/red phase' may be (presumably) recessive traits from today's turkeys' original ancestors, AND that those naturally occuring traits may be the origin of many of the color phases in domestic turkeys, but it would be simply fallacious to assume that today's 'wild' turkeys have no genetic influence from previously domesticated stock (in most locales).
Heck, I bet even if you showed Dr. Williams (or any other reputable turkey biologist) a picture of a 'wild' turkey with some white on it, he would say it is most likely a naturally occuring color phase 'wild' turkey, but he would not rule out the possibility of 'domestic' influence.
Nope, I wasn't aware that animals in completely different genuses could interbreed. Maybe you're on to something.
Well, since you apparently didn't know, white farm ducks are descended (again with the help from mankind through many generations of selective breeding) from mallard ducks, and WILL interbreed (albeight with lower fertility) with each other as most farmers know.
Neither of the two examples above (domestic/wild turkeys or mallard/pekin ducks) are different species... remember from biology, a 'species' is a group of animals which can interbreed. You must be confusing 'subspecies' with 'species'.
And in the time it took to type this, I'm sure somebody's free ranging 'domestic' turkey humped a 'wild' turkey hen :)
Setterman said:
Nope, but I wasn't talking about 'wild turkeys' I was talking about 'turkeys'. No disrespect intended to Dr williams, and while he may be the forefather of 'wild' turkey biology and 'wild' turkey hunting, he doesn't hold a candle even to many simple-minded turkey farmers who understand better the genetics and penetrance of phenotypic turkey coloration.
Just put your thinking cap on...
The subspecies of 'domestic' turkey (originally captured from Mexico and transported to Spain, and eventually Europe in the 1500's) is presumed to now be extinct. That subspecies (if it really is a subspecies), however, will interbreed with all other subspecies indigenous to North America (save the ocellated, of course). Through countless generations, mankind has since selectively bred that subspecies into at least 50 different color variations which breed true.
Fast forward to America in the '30's... By then, we had wiped out the majority of native 'wild' turkeys... in fact, I don't think it would be a stretch to say there were more 'domestic' turkeys in America than 'wild', many of which look exactly like their 'wild' cousins.
So we all felt bad about killing off most of the 'wild' turkeys, and decided to restore/ reintroduce them in the '40's and '50's. And in the process, an estimated 400,000 'domestic' or 'captive hatched' turkeys were released into the wild (perhaps even more than the entire 'wild' turkey population in the USA). Many did not survive to interbreed with native turkeys, but some did, just as free ranging domestic turkeys have done with native turkeys for the 200 years prior and will continue to do so, even today. (Or do you actually think that all domestic turkeys are incapable of reproduction with 'wild' turkeys? Or that Easterns cannot breed with Rios?) In any case, during the reintroduction phase of 'wild' turkeys in America, there was a surge of significant infusion of 'domestic' genetics in many locales.
Now I will grant you that the 'silver phase', 'melanistic phase' or erythristic/red phase' may be (presumably) recessive traits from today's turkeys' original ancestors, AND that those naturally occuring traits may be the origin of many of the color phases in domestic turkeys, but it would be simply fallacious to assume that today's 'wild' turkeys have no genetic influence from previously domesticated stock (in most locales).
Heck, I bet even if you showed Dr. Williams (or any other reputable turkey biologist) a picture of a 'wild' turkey with some white on it, he would say it is most likely a naturally occuring color phase 'wild' turkey, but he would not rule out the possibility of 'domestic' influence.
Setterman said:
Nope, I wasn't aware that animals in completely different genuses could interbreed. Maybe you're on to something.
Setterman said:
Well, since you apparently didn't know, white farm ducks are descended (again with the help from mankind through many generations of selective breeding) from mallard ducks, and WILL interbreed (albeight with lower fertility) with each other as most farmers know.
Setterman said:
Neither of the two examples above (domestic/wild turkeys or mallard/pekin ducks) are different species... remember from biology, a 'species' is a group of animals which can interbreed. You must be confusing 'subspecies' with 'species'.
And in the time it took to type this, I'm sure somebody's free ranging 'domestic' turkey humped a 'wild' turkey hen :)
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
Not saying the rio/eastern/merriams/gould's/oceola can't breed with the ocellated, but I strongly suspect that the offspring would be sterile (which would therefore have no impact on our turkeys)... kinda like donkeys and horses making mules... Same genus, different species.
In any case, I really don't know jack about the ocellated turkeys except they're really pretty and they don't gobble. And you supposedly walk through the jungle and shoot them out of trees while swatting malaria infested mosquitoes. Doesn't sound like fun to me :)
In any case, I really don't know jack about the ocellated turkeys except they're really pretty and they don't gobble. And you supposedly walk through the jungle and shoot them out of trees while swatting malaria infested mosquitoes. Doesn't sound like fun to me :)
Bone Collector
Well-Known Member
I saw one this year. It's the only one i've seen in 34 years.
Setterman
Well-Known Member
mega, I would love to see the evidence of domesticated birds being used as "stockers", I have never heard that before. TN's birds were restocked from mainly MO birds from what I have read, which were native flocks when they were tapped.
When the turkeys were so called extinct, there were many many areas which still had remnant flocks. Including the mountainous regions here in East TN, SE KY, and SW VA. Which just so happens to be where I have seen the most odd color phased birds. There were also flocks in Al, Miss, MO, and many other states.
I do not for one second think that any of the color variations we see today have anything related to domestic turkeys being an influence. I am sure that somewhere there is a bird or two which have interbred, but do not think that the number of those is of any significant value.
Sure on paper your theory could make sense, but in reality it is far from being the case IMO. If it were we would see alot more examples nationwide of domesticated influences, which we don't.
When the turkeys were so called extinct, there were many many areas which still had remnant flocks. Including the mountainous regions here in East TN, SE KY, and SW VA. Which just so happens to be where I have seen the most odd color phased birds. There were also flocks in Al, Miss, MO, and many other states.
I do not for one second think that any of the color variations we see today have anything related to domestic turkeys being an influence. I am sure that somewhere there is a bird or two which have interbred, but do not think that the number of those is of any significant value.
Sure on paper your theory could make sense, but in reality it is far from being the case IMO. If it were we would see alot more examples nationwide of domesticated influences, which we don't.
One farm Ive hunted for 10 years or so always has 3 or 4 color phase birds every year. Always hens though, never a gobbler. Never a bearded hen either.
Huntaholic
Well-Known Member
I was gonna stay out of this one, I tend to think it is a recessive gene in WILD populations that occasionally comes out. HOWEVER, I do know for a fact that pen reared birds were released unsuccessfully even in those areas with remnant populations of the ones God put here. I started hunting Catoosa in the early '80s and learned a lot just sitting around the check station listening to the REAL old timers talk about turkeys and turkey hunting. One very elderly gentleman comes to mind in particular. He was a long sice retired wildlife officer and he actually took part in some of the releases of pen reared birds on Catoosa. He said as near as they could tell, not a single pen raised bird ever lived long enough to interbreed with the true strain easterns that were already there.Setterman said:
Not "one-of-a-kind" but rare. I've seen lots of silver color phase birds, several white birds, but only one white phase hen with a beard, and made a concentrated effort to kill it 2 seasons ago. Even called it in early one morning with a gobbler and other hens, shot at her rather than the strutter, and missed! I was soooooooo dissapointed! Have seen her since though. I'd have the bird full body mount.
I'm not going to pretend to be a Biologist (even though I might qualify), but it is a REALLY nice bird and I assure you not more than one or two MAYBE on this site have ever taken one of those. Bearded hen, plenty, but not in color phase!
I'm not going to pretend to be a Biologist (even though I might qualify), but it is a REALLY nice bird and I assure you not more than one or two MAYBE on this site have ever taken one of those. Bearded hen, plenty, but not in color phase!
:cool:
Setterman
Well-Known Member
RAFI said:
Considering I did all of my supporting research in Miss, none of which involved reintroduction, and didn't even move here until 8 years ago, I decided it was best to ask for evidence to support the restocking with domesticated birds. As far as I am concerned a few old timers chewing the fat doesn't constitute evidence. Now a TWRA official citing birds stocked out of domestic backgrounds would be different all together.
I know you made your post as a joke, but the first section of the reply you quoted was a legitimate question with what background I had heard over the years.
I have read it somewhere over the years but not sure where.twra raised tame birds and stocked them .It didn't work.the rocket nets designed for waterfowl saved the wild turkey also.Atleast thats what I read on it.
i was a Soc. major and studied human behavior.I was a bio major a long time ago.lol
i was a Soc. major and studied human behavior.I was a bio major a long time ago.lol
kdxdude
Well-Known Member
The rocket nets also burned up about 20 turkeys that were caught in a net & burned about 18 acres in Columbia, Tn several years ago. They set the rockets off & caught the birds, the rockets set the field on fire, the fire burned the nets & the birds & the wind picked up & the fire burned about 18 acres.
InfoMan
Well-Known Member
Stocking efforts in the 1940's involved pen raised wild birds. They did not do well at all.
