Hey BSK
- Thread starter Big Gun
- Start date
This ought to be good. :grin:
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Isn't BSK Dr. Kroll's right-hand man now? 
Think they're working on a book about the merits of high-fence [color:#FF0000]hunting [/color]deer farming/shooting for small landowners.
This will be next in the small landowner series books following:
Dual Use Water Troughs: Turning Your Water Trough into a Fish Pond.
Yes! Feed Your Deer & Your Catfish with A Single Feeder!
Think they're working on a book about the merits of high-fence [color:#FF0000]
This will be next in the small landowner series books following:
Dual Use Water Troughs: Turning Your Water Trough into a Fish Pond.
Yes! Feed Your Deer & Your Catfish with A Single Feeder!
BSK
Well-Known Member
First, let me say that the few times I've talked to him, he's always been friendly and even complimentary of my research. In addition, I give him full credit for bringing much of science behind QDM to the forefront of the hunting public's mind through the publication of his book A Practical Guide to Producing and Harvesting Whitetailed Deer. That book (I have a 1st Edition copy) changed my world (and eventually, my career). He was also one of the first researcher to begin conducting large-scale research projects on the effects of QDM harvest guidelines.
However, he was also one of the first deer researchers to use his knowledge and experience to create a lucrative career outside of the university research world (I certainly have no problem with that), but eventually his entrepreneurship got him in trouble. He began hiding the fact that some of the more extreme management practices he advocated were scientifically dubious, if not outright biologically dangerous. Eventually he started publishing crazy claims and accusations against other profit-minded researchers, and making wildly inaccurate statements in defense of his profit-driven management methods (extreme forms of trophy management). Unfortunately, he is now looked upon by the scientific community as a loon and a hack. His fixation on maximizing his personal income, even at the expense of The Truth, really destroyed what had been a great reputation.
However, he was also one of the first deer researchers to use his knowledge and experience to create a lucrative career outside of the university research world (I certainly have no problem with that), but eventually his entrepreneurship got him in trouble. He began hiding the fact that some of the more extreme management practices he advocated were scientifically dubious, if not outright biologically dangerous. Eventually he started publishing crazy claims and accusations against other profit-minded researchers, and making wildly inaccurate statements in defense of his profit-driven management methods (extreme forms of trophy management). Unfortunately, he is now looked upon by the scientific community as a loon and a hack. His fixation on maximizing his personal income, even at the expense of The Truth, really destroyed what had been a great reputation.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Wes Parrish said:Isn't BSK Dr. Kroll's right-hand man now?
Think they're working on a book about the merits of high-fence [color:#FF0000]hunting[/color]deer farming/shooting for small landowners.
This will be next in the small landowner series books following:
Dual Use Water Troughs: Turning Your Water Trough into a Fish Pond.
Yes! Feed Your Deer & Your Catfish with A Single Feeder!
That's funny!!!
Brassica Toxicity... all that needs to be said lol
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
HEY! I resemble that statement!BSK said:
Thanks. Due to this conversation with this know it all, I'm now looking for a new place to hunt. Property in western Hardeman Co. about half & half timber to ag land and he doesn't want any does killed.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Big Gun said:
If fawn recruitment is adequate, not killing does would probably be a big mistake over time.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Wes Parrish said:HEY! I resemble that statement!BSK said:
Don't sell yourself short Wes. First, ALL professionals have personal beliefs that other professionals think are loony. And second, I've changed my mind completely about some of your ideas I first thought were a bit "out there." A prime example would be your idea that harvest pressure on the largest antlered 2 1/2 year-old bucks is effecting the structure of the older buck age classes. I now believe you are correct. And not only is high harvest pressure on the largest antlered 2 1/2 year-old bucks reducing the antler size of older bucks, I also think it is having a fairly significant influence on which mature bucks hunters kill; in that hunters are now much more likely to kill one of the smallest antlered mature bucks from the mature buck population than one of the largest antlered.
The fact that hunters so often kill the smallest-antlered members of the mature buck population is now so commonplace that it defies any possibility of being random chance. It is unquestionably a real pattern, and I believe it is the high harvest pressure on large-antlered 2 1/2 year-old bucks that is driving much of this pattern.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Thanks, BSK, for sharing your thoughts.
I know antler high-grading of the largest antlered yearling, 2 1/2 & 3 1/2's is not a significant issue everywhere there's hunting, but it has appeared most problematic in many places where the hunters were trying harder to "manage" more for larger antlered mature bucks, particularly by using "antler restrictions" such as "4 on a side" or "8 or better".
Go figure.
I know antler high-grading of the largest antlered yearling, 2 1/2 & 3 1/2's is not a significant issue everywhere there's hunting, but it has appeared most problematic in many places where the hunters were trying harder to "manage" more for larger antlered mature bucks, particularly by using "antler restrictions" such as "4 on a side" or "8 or better".
Go figure.
woodsman87
Well-Known Member
I agree with this. But i am also not in the know how on aging them on the hoof. I look at the sticky thread at the top, but it's still hard, especially when you never see deer on camera or in person that fit the 3-1/2 year old qualities.Wes Parrish said:Thanks, BSK, for sharing your thoughts.
I know antler high-grading of the largest antlered yearling, 2 1/2 & 3 1/2's is not a significant issue everywhere there's hunting, but it has appeared most problematic in many places where the hunters were trying harder to "manage" more for larger antlered mature bucks, particularly by using "antler restrictions" such as "4 on a side" or "8 or better".
Go figure.
The reason why i do antler restrictions is because i want to shoot a nice buck antler size that makes me happy, or nervous while shooting him. I would much rather kill a big 6 or 8 pointer that was 4-1/2 to 5-1/2 than a 2-1/2 or 3-1/2 that had a little bigger rack. Sounds crazy, but i could give a crap about Boone and Crockett. Its all about the experience, and if i kill a 5plus old buck i have felt like I've done something. I don't know how to age jawbones or on the hoof, but I'm pretty sure i have never killed one over 3-1/2, or one that scored higher than 120-125. I don't kill many, but most of the bucks i have killed have probably been 2-1/2 year old 90-100" eight pointers. That is because it "excited" me when i saw it.
BigAl
Well-Known Member
Ok, here's my opinion:
BSK is a loon.
Wes is too.
But if they say DrDeer is an idiot, I believe them.
BSK is a loon.
Wes is too.
But if they say DrDeer is an idiot, I believe them.
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
Holy smokes...if there's ANY area in the entire State where we need to pull the trigger on more does it's here. Provided we weren't talking about a sprawling 9.2 acre tract or something (4.5 acres in cedars and privet + 4.7 acres in some poor fellow's truck patch). It is downright difficult to manage herd density and sex ratio in these parts.Big Gun said:
As you can hopefully see by my response, I am of the opinion that a decision to not kill does in this area seems a bit ill-advised.
BigAl
Well-Known Member
Boll Weevil, its almost 3500 acres. Believe me, there are plenty of does.
X2BigAl said:
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
Choot!! Choot'em Alizabeth!!
BSK
Well-Known Member
woodsman87 said:
And there's nothing wrong with starting your management practices this way. Using any system in an attempt to reduce the harvest of young bucks is better than shooting every buck with antlers.
The real problems occur only when a high percentage of hunters in a given area select bucks for harvest only using antler size. This WILL, over time, reduce the antler size of older bucks and make the few larger-antlered mature bucks very, very difficult to kill.
woodsman87
Well-Known Member
BSK said:
I know that you are right and it makes perfect sense.
Killing the best genetic bucks, the ones that have nice little 6 or 8 point basket racks and 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 years old, allows the scrubby spikes to grow old, and according to some people never making much.
I have no idea how people tell a deer from year to year unless its rack looks the same. Like a young spike with straight 7 in spikes, then next year people say that its a 2-1/2 year old basket 6 pointer. How do they know its the same deer unless it has a white patch on it somewhere?
BSK
Well-Known Member
woodsman87 said:
From yearling to 2 1/2, I usually cannot track an individual buck, unless he has some unique body marking. Antler shape often changes dramatically from the yearling antlers to 2 1/2. But from 2 1/2 onwards, I track individual bucks by their antler configuration. The only problem with this method is that no one, to date, has conducted a study of bucks to determine what percent of bucks have antlers over their lifetime that are identifiable as grown by the same buck. Perhaps it is a high percentage and perhaps it is a low percentage. No one has established any guidelines around this parameter. Personally, I think it is a high percentage, but that is just an educated guess.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Think in terms that each buck's antlers are about as unique as each man's fingerprint (at least typically when studying 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 and older bucks).woodsman87 said:
A large percentage of healthy 2 1/2-yr-old bucks will be "mainframe" 8-pointers. However, typically there will be very noticeable differences in configuration once you train yourself to look. Differences such as curvature are a good example. Note whether the main beams curve up or down as they protrude forward; note whether they curve more inward or more straight forward. Note the curvature of the tines, particularly the G-2's and G-3's. Note the curvature of the G-1's.
Look for the presence of budding new points or stickers. This is often what appears as a "bump" or an erupting tine less than 1/2" above the the beam (or tine) from which erupting. Say you see about a 1/4" "bump" somewhere on the main beam of a 2 1/2-yr-old buck. Next year when he's 3 1/2, there should be something of more prominence in exactly the same spot.
And while we don't have the opportunity to put a tape measure on a living buck's antlers, it can be obvious when a particular buck has relatively short or long tines. So not only do you look for tine length, but compare each of the buck's tines to his other tines for relative length. If his left G-2 is significantly shorter (and not due to breakage) than his right G-2, that trait should carry ongoing year-to-year.
Also, once we're looking at 3 1/2 & older bucks, they tend to become more individually unique in their antler configurations.
Sure, there are exceptions to everything, but these generalizations usually hold true.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
One thing I do first when trying to identify a particular buck on an ongoing basis: Simply look for the single most unique feature of that buck's antlers.
When you look at this one, what stands out as being most unique with his configuration? Can you see why I named him "CrossBeams", shorted to "CB"?
Or what stands out as being the most unique feature of this old buck's antlers?
When you look at this one, what stands out as being most unique with his configuration? Can you see why I named him "CrossBeams", shorted to "CB"?
Or what stands out as being the most unique feature of this old buck's antlers?
woodsman87
Well-Known Member
Yes Wes, I agree with you. I was just saying how can some hunters claim to know that this little spike or four pointer grew up to be the 220" deer that I killed yesterday, without a noticable marking on the skin or somthing.
I think that once they get 2-1/2+ that they start having the same rack every year, just adding inches and an extra point or so. But them yearling bucks to 2-1/2, Most of the times there can be no way to tell.
Sorry if I seem sarcastic, but I have heard people say that. Just one of them things that I do not believe in.
I think that once they get 2-1/2+ that they start having the same rack every year, just adding inches and an extra point or so. But them yearling bucks to 2-1/2, Most of the times there can be no way to tell.
Sorry if I seem sarcastic, but I have heard people say that. Just one of them things that I do not believe in.
woodsman87
Well-Known Member
Wes Parrish said:One thing I do first when trying to identify a particular buck on an ongoing basis: Simply look for the single most unique feature of that buck's antlers.
When you look at this one, what stands out as being most unique with his configuration? Can you see why I named him "CrossBeams", shorted to "CB"?
The most noticable thing to me immediately is that I would shoot him dead and mount him!!!
Haha, yes I see his main beams crossing one another, very uniqu and easy to distinguish from others.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Here's another pic of that "drooping beam" buck above.
Note how his right main beam goes downward (a lot more than most) while his left main beam goes upward -- very unique.
Also notice from this pic the presence of "stickers" on his left G-1. While these stickers would not be so noticeable from a distance, the drooping right beam was very noticeable when I saw him for just a split second at 150 yards.
I had named this buck "Cal" due to the large amount of calcium deposits on his antler bases.
Note how his right main beam goes downward (a lot more than most) while his left main beam goes upward -- very unique.
Also notice from this pic the presence of "stickers" on his left G-1. While these stickers would not be so noticeable from a distance, the drooping right beam was very noticeable when I saw him for just a split second at 150 yards.
I had named this buck "Cal" due to the large amount of calcium deposits on his antler bases.
woodsman87
Well-Known Member
Wes Parrish said:Here's another pic of that "drooping beam" buck above.
Note how his right main beam goes downward (a lot more than most) while his left main beam goes upward -- very unique.
Also notice from this pic the presence of "stickers" on his left G-1. While these stickers would not be so noticeable from a distance, the drooping right beam was very noticeable when I saw him for just a split second at 150 yards.
I had named this buck "Cal" due to the large amount of calcium deposits on his antler bases.
Yes I can see the distinction in both bucks. I just don't ever see or get on camera anything big enough to pay attention too.
You have some nice bucks. I have never seen with my eyes or on camera one that big and I been deer hunting for about 15 years and have always lived in the countryside.
Mike Belt
Well-Known Member
Al----Is this Granville's place you're talking about? It sounds like his son took it over if so.
Mike
Yes it is Granville's place.
Yes it is Granville's place.
Mike
The latest is he wants only 3 deer/person, 2 bucks 1 doe only.
The latest is he wants only 3 deer/person, 2 bucks 1 doe only.
