Hen Discussion.....

[Grizzly Johnson]

So as not to hijack the other thread.... Carry on..... civil like.

I wish you would repost the picture of the developing eggs so people can see what they're killing when they kill a hen, bearded or otherwise. If a person thinks it's worth the cost to kill one, then that's up to them, I'm not passing judgment. But a scraggly 6" beard, no spurs, and very little meat is not worth taking 5-6 new turkeys out of the population in my opinion. Again, if it's a trophy to you, then the State of Tennessee allows you to kill one. But at least think about the cost before you kill it.

I wish you would repost the picture of the developing eggs so people can see what they're killing when they kill a hen, bearded or otherwise. If a person thinks it's worth the cost to kill one, then that's up to them, I'm not passing judgment. But a scraggly 6" beard, no spurs, and very little meat is not worth taking 5-6 new turkeys out of the population in my opinion. Again, if it's a trophy to you, then the State of Tennessee allows you to kill one. But at least think about the cost before you kill it.

Every doe killed in the fall has the same embryos as well, as you also against killing those?

I wish you would repost the picture of the developing eggs so people can see what they're killing when they kill a hen, bearded or otherwise. If a person thinks it's worth the cost to kill one, then that's up to them, I'm not passing judgment. But a scraggly 6" beard, no spurs, and very little meat is not worth taking 5-6 new turkeys out of the population in my opinion. Again, if it's a trophy to you, then the State of Tennessee allows you to kill one. But at least think about the cost before you kill it.

Every doe killed in the fall has the same embryos as well, as you also against killing those?

He isn't against killing does I guaruntee that. Turkeys don't dominate the woods around here like deer do, alot more delicate.

He is also one that makes comments about the population possibly declining, as well as me.

Then the proper course of action is to get the laws changed, not degrade a mans hard earned LEGAL kill.

Every doe killed in the fall has the same embryos as well, as you also against killing those?

The population dynamic with turkeys and with deer are totally different. Biologically, a large number of does need to be killed each year to keep the population balanced. Without killing does, the ratio quickly gets thrown off and the overall heard health declines.

With turkeys, due to extremely high predation rates and the potential for large scale hatch failures in certain areas, there is no biological reason to remove hens. As Woodsman said, the turkey population is much more delicate than deer population.

So, no I'm not against killing does, and yes I am strongly against killing hens. It's apples and oranges.

To be clear, I'm not trying to bash your buddy for killing a hen. I know they're legal and some people kill them. I would just like people to think about the ramifications before they pull the trigger. Not killing her may direly result in 2-3 hard gobbling adult male turkeys in that area two years from now, plus more hens to lay more clutches. Killing her results in a scraggly 6" beard and a 5 lbs worth of breast meat. The best possible thing that could come from it is a good sounding wingbone call. Just think about it.

And I really do wish the OP would repost the developing egg pictures. It's helpful to see.

Then the proper course of action is to get the laws changed, not degrade a mans hard earned LEGAL kill.

I didn't take it as degrading a mans hard earned LEGAL kill.... rather giving his stance with some information as to why he feels this way...

There's a whole forum where he can start his own thread for that.

I would like to see the eggs also. Didn't get to see them yet. It helps put it in perspective to those that don't understand.

Also, it will help see what stage of development this hen was in. All of them are probably a little different, and different in other areas of state.

 

[woodsman87]

I have seen that the reason the rules are "bearded birds only" is so that hunters will not shoot at colors and movements of black, red, blue, and white. So they put in the rule to where you have to identify I beard before you shoot it. Even if you kill a 5 year old gobbler with 1-1/2" spurs and testicals, it is still illegal if it doesn't have a beard.

Smart and good rule, but I wish the would make it "bearded gobblers only"

 

[Grizzly Johnson]

You know, in relation to your post Wm87, I wonder how many hunters actually shoot before they see a beard.... I mean a good clear view of a beard. I have seen several instances where some say "when his head popped up over the hill/edge/rise/log, I rolled him" or "the longbeard and jake went behind a tree or thick stuff, when his red head poked out I rolled him but had shot the jake by "mistake"".... As you said, in Tennessee, if he has a mature gobble, spurs, and full fan.... but no visible beard, it's an illegal bird/kill.

 

[pass-thru]

If there is an established turkey population, there is no reason not to allow harvest of hens. And considering that bearded hens are less than 20% of the female population even where they appear most commonly, allowing harvest of bearded hens can do no harm given the nature of wild turkey population dynamics.

Wild turkey populations incur tremendous attrion, and their reproductivec cycles have adapted to thrive in spite of tremendous attrition. Only a small fraction of poults that hatch survive to one year, and of those that do, at least 50% of each age class will attrite prior to its successive birthday. Turkey populations follow this model with or without hunting...based on natural predationa and mortality alone.

In fact, hunting with seasons and bag limits based on actual population models, are designed to skim the cream and have no overal impact on the population at all. Much more crucial to wild turkey populations is the success of the hatch, which is largely weather dependent.

Consider how many hens and nests are destroyed by cutting hay...yet turkeys continue to thrive.

There will always be natural ups and downs. That is usually the result of hatch rates which depend on weahter conditions.

I enjoy fall hunting and have taken several hens in that manner. This has always been when population levels were high. After a bad hatch or two, I generally don't hunt them in the fall. Most of the other VA turkey hunters I know do the same. I prefer to take a hen rather than a jake, but that's personal preference.

 

[woodsman87]

The arguement is always "She probably would have died anyways because most of them don't make it to theif 1st birthday."

And that is correct, chances are she will not. But mortality rate already so high, why make it higher be even the miniscule harvest of hens?

I am not a whiner or complainer, but Giles and Lawrence County Tennessee isn't even remotely close to the way it used to be. Northern parts of the county are still good, but the southern halves are horrendous. I have had many thoughts, theories, and discussions about the population declines in these areas.

I tend to want to believe it is a naturaul population decline to the local ecosystems carrying capacity. But, why is it not like that in the Northern parts of these counties? It is the same habitat. Weather isn't any different. And then a little further north in Lewis, Maury, and Marshall counties is even better. Still not much different as far as habitat and weather. It is basically like south of Highway 64 is a turkey wasteland.

It just bothers me to see people shoot hens when they do not understand the ramifications of it.

 

[Andy S.]

...I wonder how many hunters actually shoot before they see a beard

More than will admit it.

I have seen several instances where some say "when his head popped up over the hill/edge/rise/log, I rolled him"..

x2

 

[catman529]

I'm not sure why Southern Sportsman is hating on the hen killing so much, when he gladly took wing bones from 2 hens I killed. I was glad to share them and still am glad they went to good use, but sheesh...

 

[Grizzly Johnson]

You like killing hens, he don't.... which could be why he took the wingbones from your hens....

 

[catman529]

You like killing hens, he don't.... which could be why he took the wingbones from your hens....

and he wants everyone to not kill hens judging by the above post, kind of like a PETA member taking meat from someone

 

[Southern Sportsman]

I'm not trying to "hate" on hen killing, just sharing my view on the subject. And I really appreciate you sharing your hen bones, but that doesn't mean I approve of the underlying hen killing. But their bones do make better sounding calls, and since you were likely going to kill a few anyway, it seemed like a good trade.

I also have slightly less of a problem killing them in the fall than in the spring. In the fall, many of them are young hens and will be killed anyway. They have not been bred, and there is still a hell of a long way for them to go before they make a nest and lay any eggs. So it hurts me less to see a SMALL number of hens killed in the fall. But shooting one that has already survived the winter, made it to the breeding cycle, been bread, and is within a few days of making a nest and laying eggs -- or has already made a nest and has been laying eggs, is in effect no different than shooing a hen from the next and stomping on the eggs. And for what? -- a 6" scraggly beard.

 

[Grizzly Johnson]

apples to oranges buddy.....

 

[TheRealSpurhunter]

I'm not sure why Southern Sportsman is hating on the hen killing so much, when he gladly took wing bones from 2 hens I killed. I was glad to share them and still am glad they went to good use, but sheesh...

Same reason the guys that hunt next to me in unit L claim to be "trophy" hunters, yet in five seasons they have never taken a doe, but gladly accepted the summer sausage I offered them....

 

[muddyboots]

I don't shoot hens. I don't shoot jakes. Just don't see the allure in it but that's just me. We have a bearded hen that's been on our lease for 5 years. We see her a lot and she has a weird spot on her wing to identify her. No telling how many gobblers she has hatched for me to shoot. LOL Also we had a huge gobbler that I passed a couple times a few years back because I could not see a beard. Everytime I saw it was strutting. A buddy killed it a week later and saw it out of strut and could see its did indeed had a beard stub. 4 inches. It had developed beard rot.

 

[TheRealSpurhunter]

I'm not trying to "hate" on hen killing, just sharing my view on the subject. And I really appreciate you sharing your hen bones, but that doesn't mean I approve of the underlying hen killing. But their bones do make better sounding calls, and since you were likely going to kill a few anyway, it seemed like a good trade.

I also have slightly less of a problem killing them in the fall than in the spring. In the fall, many of them are young hens and will be killed anyway. They have not been bred, and there is still a hell of a long way for them to go before they make a nest and lay any eggs. So it hurts me less to see a SMALL number of hens killed in the fall. But shooting one that has already survived the winter, made it to the breeding cycle, been bread, and is within a few days of making a nest and laying eggs -- or has already made a nest and has been laying eggs, is in effect no different than shooing a hen from the next and stomping on the eggs. And for what? -- a 6" scraggly beard.

I certainly get your concerns, but I think the overall number of hens killed isnt a huge factor. Its been legal for how many years in TN, yet overall turkey pop has increased statewide.
I shake my head over the guys that wont shoot a coyote while turkey hunting, or a bobcat during season because it might affect their chance at a gobbler that day. Its short sighted, those two predators kill a TON of turkeys year round.

 

[Thicketmaster]

I agree somewhat to what southern sportsman is saying if you don't have many turkeys you shouldn't be killing any hens legal or not! Their the reason we got all these turkeys! The farm we are hunting is loaded though we got about 75 hens on 500 ac I have counted that many in one flock there everywhere! I removed the pics I didn't want to offend anyone I was really looking at it scientifically its something I've never seen and was surprised at how many eggs she had!

 

[woodsman87]

I disagree that turkey populations are increasing statewide. I think they have platuead, and probably decreasing some. They are definately decreasing in ever county and privately owned farm and place I have access to, and have been for several years.

I think all of you would understand my thoughts of shooting hens if you were to hunt anywhere that I have access to (minus public land in Maury county.)

 

[Southern Sportsman]

I agree somewhat to what southern sportsman is saying if you don't have many turkeys you shouldn't be killing any hens legal or not! Their the reason we got all these turkeys! The farm we are hunting is loaded though we got about 75 hens on 500 ac I have counted that many in one flock there everywhere! I removed the pics I didn't want to offend anyone I was really looking at it scientifically its something I've never seen and was surprised at how many eggs she had!

Thicket, first, you did not offend me personally when you posted the hen or the eggs. In fact, I'm glad you posted it. And I hope I didn't offend you with my opinions. I've tried to be very respectful while still speaking my mind. I understand that killing the occasional hen won't have a noticeable impact on the overall population, but it will (or may) have some direct affect. I don't get mad if someone wants to kill one -- that's their prerogative. I just want people to have some idea of what they're killing (i.e., potentially more than just that one hen), and if that's worth it to them, then so be it.

For example, Catman walked up on a nesting hen with 13 eggs a few days ago. I would bet that he wouldn't have shot her even if she had a beard, because it would feel wrong to shoot a hen off of her nest full of eggs. But it has the same affect whether she is sitting or about to start laying, but one might feel more wrong than the other.

And for that reason, will you please post in this thread the picture of the eggs you removed from your buddy's hen? Not intended to bash in any way. It is educational and interesting, and it may help to see them.

 

[Setterman]

I'm in the camp that hens should never be killed even in the fall, but especially in the spring. There is nothing trophy like about a bearded hen to me, it's just another dam hen with a few glorified feathers coming out of her chest. There is not enough meat on a hen to use that as an excuse for removing a vital egg layer from the flock.

Don't even start the doe versus hen stuff as it is illogical and the two species are not comparable in those ways.

Fall hen killing is almost as bad but at least in the fall their not carrying next years crop.

The picture of the egg embryos bothered me, but I choose not to respond and I generally don't respond to hen pictures because of my distaste for hen killing overall.

 

[Gravey]

I won't shoot a bearded hen but that's my personal choice. I'd prefer her lay eggs and 20% or so make it than me kill her with 0% chance of laying anything. If your happy shooting them on your place I'm tickled to death for you. Just not my cup of tea.

 

[Bone Collector]

The only way i would kill a bearded hen is if it was what I call a "salt and pepper" hen. not an all white one, that is just a domestic that got loose, but one that is white, and black mix. I have seen three, and none had beards. I did see one in fall, but couldn't get her.

I have mixed emotions on shooting them now in the fall. I have done it, but that was 2010 or 2011. I have had opportunities to go and know where there are big flocks, but I'd rather bow hunt for deer in October then flock shoot turkeys. Plus, now I just don't feel like killing them anymore.

SS is right. There is a noticeable difference in the amount of meat you get off a hen.

 

[fredfred]

I shot a bearded hen last weekend. Its the only hen I have ever killed. It was kind of a novelty to me. I don't feel bad about it. I might shoot another one if I feel like it or maybe not. Hate on me and I'll shoot em all LoL just out of spite.

 

[Jcalder]

I shot a bearded hen last weekend. Its the only hen I have ever killed. It was kind of a novelty to me. I don't feel bad about it. I might shoot another one if I feel like it or maybe not. Hate on me and I'll shoot em all LoL just out of spite.

I feel the same way lol. Wish half my hens would go somewhere else. Have way too many

 

[timberjack86]

I shot a bearded hen last weekend. Its the only hen I have ever killed. It was kind of a novelty to me. I don't feel bad about it. I might shoot another one if I feel like it or maybe not. Hate on me and I'll shoot em all LoL just out of spite.

I feel the same way lol. Wish half my hens would go somewhere else. Have way too many

I see no problem killing a few hens when the population is high.

 

[Setterman]

I shot a bearded hen last weekend. Its the only hen I have ever killed. It was kind of a novelty to me. I don't feel bad about it. I might shoot another one if I feel like it or maybe not. Hate on me and I'll shoot em all LoL just out of spite.

I feel the same way lol. Wish half my hens would go somewhere else. Have way too many

It's not possible to have too many hens, and saying that only shows a lack of understanding in turkeys and honestly turkey hunting.

Granted there are folks who generally don't like turkeys and prefer deer. They believe turkeys affect deer adversely so they want the turkeys gone.

Honestly, I can't believe what I just read, it truly blows my mind that mindset. I guess some of remember the days when seeing a turkey was a great day, and killing one truly epic. We weren't fortunate to start hunting after TWRA and others had worked for decades to restore the populations after people with the above mentality wiped out the native turkey flocks.

The new era of hunter, sheesh....

 

[Nealmeally]

I hunt a farm in Marshall county that has a lot of hens! When I say a lot, I mean I've sat and counted 100+ a flock, in more than one flock year round.. When you see 8+ mature longbeards together, all strutting together you think WTH... Well then you see 35+ hens come over the hill with em. It's hard to call a bird up with that many hens with em every single day, all day.. And you can go over the hill and see 30+ more hens and 5+ longbeards following them around. Every ridge you go over it's another flock.. The numbers are unreal and the hunting is very hard.. The noise of it all at daylight is a turkey hunter's dream. But by 10am you leave cussing 8 out of 10 times..Or you can stay all day and nothing changes..

I'm not an ambush kinda guy, I like calling him in. But even if I was an ambush guy it would almost be impossible to sneak in range with this many eyes.. The hens come to the longbeards and protect em. If you barely bump a call the hens lead the toms off..

As far as a population stand point I see why folks want to keep the hens alive. I also know and have farms to hunt with very low numbers of turkeys that used to be better. But the area in Marshall county has more than enough hens in my opinion. As far as a hunting view point of it, I do wish the hen numbers were lower on this place. It makes for very difficult hunting! I love a good challenge but I draw the line somewhere. I consider myself a good turkey hunter and great caller but having a place absolutley full of turkeys and you can't do nothing with em is frustrating..

You hear all the time, those birds will come when they get thru with the hens... these birds never get thru with the hens, at least not during the season anyways...

 

[fredfred]

I was just teasing about shooting them all. I've had a rough couple of seasons strung together so I shot her. She ate just as good as any gobbler I've ever killed. I almost didn't pull the trigger and If I'd killed a bearded hen before I would've waited on the gobbler that was undoubtable coming. Kinda like the 3 point I killed several years ago, I didn't have a 3 point in my collection. It's still the only 3 point I ever killed.

 

[AT Hiker]

Setterman,

I tend to agree with you on a lot of things but for the life of me I can not understand your relentless comments on the "new era of hunter". What exactly is the old hunter? Most of the old turkey hunters I know could care less how they killed a bird, the only method they knew was calling with limited calls. Blinds, dekes, super chokes, magnum loads, google earth, internet, etc didnt exist. They just wanted to hunt and hopefully kill a turkey. Just because a few successful hunters published a couple articles and books doesnt make them the father of turkey hunting, it simply makes them successful capitalist in the outdoor industry.


The jack leg you quoted is absurd to say he would kill them just out of spite, actually I feel his hunting tag should be revoked for life. The animals we pursue are due all the respect we can give them, to blatantly disrespect them is a disgrace to wildlife conservationist worldwide.

Whatever happened to the "hunt", my fondest memories turkey hunting are with my granddad, great uncle and there buddy (the only guy we knew who had a turkey call). We would camp the entire weekend; eat good, tell stories, shoot guns, hunt a couple hours, maybe hear/see a turkey, and most importantly go home with a ton of memories and the anxiety of getting back at it the next weekend. The kill was only part of the climax, but if it didnt happen it was not a complete loss.

If killing a hen brings it full circle for someone then so be it, but a bearded hen in the spring killed by a random hunter is likely not going make the species extinct.

What will make it extinct is all the bickering and judgment between fellow sportsmen, emphasis on sportsmen.

 

[Jcalder]

I shot a bearded hen last weekend. Its the only hen I have ever killed. It was kind of a novelty to me. I don't feel bad about it. I might shoot another one if I feel like it or maybe not. Hate on me and I'll shoot em all LoL just out of spite.

I feel the same way lol. Wish half my hens would go somewhere else. Have way too many

It's not possible to have too many hens, and saying that only shows a lack of understanding in turkeys and honestly turkey hunting.

Granted there are folks who generally don't like turkeys and prefer deer. They believe turkeys affect deer adversely so they want the turkeys gone.

Honestly, I can't believe what I just read, it truly blows my mind that mindset. I guess some of remember the days when seeing a turkey was a great day, and killing one truly epic. We weren't fortunate to start hunting after TWRA and others had worked for decades to restore the populations after people with the above mentality wiped out the native turkey flocks.

The new era of hunter, sheesh....

I guess I never learned the old fashioned way. Never had a mentor. I'm not so silly to think that turkeys are hurting my deer hunting. I'd rather eat a turkey 10 to 1. 70-100 turkeys on 150 acres is way too many. I bumped them several times in the fall and the woods just explode with them. Watched 3 hens raise 26 poults last summer and I'm sure I'll see a ton more this year. Every ridge where I hunt is full of sign.

I may not be an elitist like yourself but if it's legal who cares. If killing a legal bird, deer, coon, mountain lion or panther gets your rocks off I'm happy for you. But your I'm greater than thou attitude because you don't like blinds decoys calls or camo is ridiculous. You've done nothing but bash people for legal tactics.

 

[AT Hiker]

Jcalder,

Your turkey population on the farm you hunt is crazy high, but I can almost promise your farm feeds 90% of the other lands...basically your place is the turkey supply farm. Trust me, my farm is this place as well. Opening morning we had 8 toms and 15 jakes on 75 acres...now if I would have invited all my buddies and my brothers would have hunted too we would have killed prob 4 of the mature toms. Then by season end we would have wiped them out, so just because its legal doesnt make it right either. Judgement on our part is very critical. Main reason we dont kill any of the 100 plus hens that reside on us during the fall, because I know for a fact they are the stock for many hundreds if not thousands of acres in my area.

 

[Jcalder]

Jcalder,

Your turkey population on the farm you hunt is crazy high, but I can almost promise your farm feeds 90% of the other lands...basically your place is the turkey supply farm. Trust me, my farm is this place as well. Opening morning we had 8 toms and 15 jakes on 75 acres...now if I would have invited all my buddies and my brothers would have hunted too we would have killed prob 4 of the mature toms. Then by season end we would have wiped them out, so just because its legal doesnt make it right either. Judgement on our part is very critical. Main reason we dont kill any of the 100 plus hens that reside on us during the fall, because I know for a fact they are the stock for many hundreds if not thousands of acres in my area.

I don't exactly hunt a farm. It's all hardwoods except a few 2-3 acre fields and borders dale hollow lake. There is 2 bigger fields close by but I've never seen a turkey in one and the other field the sightings have went down in the past few years. This year they've stayed on my side longer than usual for the spring. In the first 9 days I seen 12 hens in 2 different spots. Could have killed any of them. That's not my goal. My goal is to learn how to be efficient. My goal is to learn how to hunt them. I'm not gonna stand back and let someone run me in the ground for legal methods. I'm not a good turkey hunter by any means. I enjoy the outdoors and that's why I go. I can see why some don't like sitting in a blind. I've used one a few times this year. It's kinda boring sitting there waiting on them to come by. I can't tell which way the sounds are coming from. But it allows me to watch them and learn. Watch their behavior and listen to the sounds they make. Killings turkeys doesn't really get my rocks off. Being in God's creation is what I enjoy.