well it is true I have sunk to an all time low.... but i did it for a good cause my rem 700 .223
I have been wanting one for a while but as always money is tight.. well backstraps had one for sale nib a few weeks ago and we worked a deal for me to reload several rds of 270wsm for him and his m70
so you just have to do what you have to do to get a remington 700
his rifle shoots great with winchester supreme ballistic silver tip ammo so he wanted to copy that. So he purchased the same nosler/ct silver tip bullets wincheste mag primer and w780 supreme powder
Winchester says they use 780 in this ammo but here is some education reading
note this is a quote and not from me
They may be the same type of powder but they aren't the same grade.
Handloaders purchase what is called canister grade powder. Canister in this context just means a package smaller than an oil drum. The problem in manufacturing powder is that burn rates are not possible to control precisely enough to be sure load manual data will remain valid each lot of powder produced. So what they do for handloaders is hold back lots that turned out to test extra fast and extra slow, then blend those as needed with new production lots to result in an overall burn rate close to nominal. That way load manual data will still be valid. In this case it is blended St. Marks WMR780 which is sold in canister grade as Winchester 780.
Ammunition manufacturers buy what is called bulk grade powder. This is the unblended powder from the powder manufacturer that often has a burn rate that's not close enough to nominal for load manual data to work. They do this because they don't want to pay the added cost of the blending. Instead of using a load manual, they save enough money on the bulk grade purchase to have ballistic technicians adjust the charge weights for the cartridges they load it in until they get the desired result. This is done in special standard pressure and velocity test barrels. So the charge weight can be rather different from one lot of loaded ammo to the next, even though the powder type is the same and the name of the load is the same.
The bottom line for the reloader is he cannot copy the factory load exactly because he doesn't have the exact same powder. Moreover, if you load your canister grade Winchester 780 to the exact same velocity as the commercial load of bulk grade WMR780, it may not perform with the same accuracy. That is because, for a given velocity, peak pressure gets higher and barrel time gets shorter as the burn rate of the powder is increased. The result is that you'll do best to adjust the charge within load manual limits to get your own best accuracy result. I recommend you read Dan Newberry's site for a systematic way of going about it.
One last point. Check whatever data you have for 780 against the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center web site. Even the canister grade powders have a little bit of lot-to-lot variation (Hodgdon keeps it to �3%, where bulk powder can sometimes vary 20%). Hodgdon keeps special lots for load testing that are exactly in the middle of the range. Their data should, therefore, represent the average of what you might buy, where other data sources will have purchased the �3% stuff off the shelf for their tests and won't have known whether it was a slightly fast or slightly slow lot that they got. This is one of several reasons different load manuals may have data that disagrees. I'm not saying to rely on Hodgdon data blindly, but if the powder is one they distribute, be sure to include them in your data sources.
Another reason the published data often disagrees is people use different brands of cases and primers. To see what Hodgdon used, click the Print button on their site. If you use something different, your final charges may be different. I always like the advice to try to check three different sources and use the lowest starting load among them. The Hodgdon data is most likely to be average, but nothing is foolproof, so start small and work up.
back to me
So basically my thoughts were right i pulled the factory loads and got 64.2 gns of powder I ran the factory load thru the chrony
3117 3179 3207 Not the 3275 winchester claims ( and I have folks that feel my chrony reads high as i can get 3595 with my 7saum tipping the can but i have checked it with an ohler 35 shooting through both at same time maybe 10fps difference)
it shot a ok the first shot was the flier it could be because i had issues shooting a m70 for the first time but it shot right at 1 inch
not poi 2 inches high even though you cant tell
SO going by load data i checked a few powder charges for pressure 67 67.5 and 68 3125 3157 3201 heck that shot a good group lol
but note poi dead ctr to a lil low
basically to achieve the same speed as factory load 67.5gn w780 the poi at 3150 ish id dead on to a lil low
wild and amazing the things that affect poi )point of impact) also note same brass primer and bulletand COAL as factory load.....note first part of post
then i shot 2 different loads
first is 67.8 gn w780 to acheive the same speed as factory ammo these three shots avg 3161 with a sd of 5.00 it shot ok
then i put a lil heat on it
68.8 (69 is max)
3245 avg fps shot less than half inch
so enough about a winchester m70 before i get sick
i ran another group throught my m700 .223
winchester 45gn jhp factory ammo
3380 fps
remington is the best
i feel dirty now for i have cheated
I have been wanting one for a while but as always money is tight.. well backstraps had one for sale nib a few weeks ago and we worked a deal for me to reload several rds of 270wsm for him and his m70
so you just have to do what you have to do to get a remington 700
his rifle shoots great with winchester supreme ballistic silver tip ammo so he wanted to copy that. So he purchased the same nosler/ct silver tip bullets wincheste mag primer and w780 supreme powder
Winchester says they use 780 in this ammo but here is some education reading
note this is a quote and not from me
They may be the same type of powder but they aren't the same grade.
Handloaders purchase what is called canister grade powder. Canister in this context just means a package smaller than an oil drum. The problem in manufacturing powder is that burn rates are not possible to control precisely enough to be sure load manual data will remain valid each lot of powder produced. So what they do for handloaders is hold back lots that turned out to test extra fast and extra slow, then blend those as needed with new production lots to result in an overall burn rate close to nominal. That way load manual data will still be valid. In this case it is blended St. Marks WMR780 which is sold in canister grade as Winchester 780.
Ammunition manufacturers buy what is called bulk grade powder. This is the unblended powder from the powder manufacturer that often has a burn rate that's not close enough to nominal for load manual data to work. They do this because they don't want to pay the added cost of the blending. Instead of using a load manual, they save enough money on the bulk grade purchase to have ballistic technicians adjust the charge weights for the cartridges they load it in until they get the desired result. This is done in special standard pressure and velocity test barrels. So the charge weight can be rather different from one lot of loaded ammo to the next, even though the powder type is the same and the name of the load is the same.
The bottom line for the reloader is he cannot copy the factory load exactly because he doesn't have the exact same powder. Moreover, if you load your canister grade Winchester 780 to the exact same velocity as the commercial load of bulk grade WMR780, it may not perform with the same accuracy. That is because, for a given velocity, peak pressure gets higher and barrel time gets shorter as the burn rate of the powder is increased. The result is that you'll do best to adjust the charge within load manual limits to get your own best accuracy result. I recommend you read Dan Newberry's site for a systematic way of going about it.
One last point. Check whatever data you have for 780 against the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center web site. Even the canister grade powders have a little bit of lot-to-lot variation (Hodgdon keeps it to �3%, where bulk powder can sometimes vary 20%). Hodgdon keeps special lots for load testing that are exactly in the middle of the range. Their data should, therefore, represent the average of what you might buy, where other data sources will have purchased the �3% stuff off the shelf for their tests and won't have known whether it was a slightly fast or slightly slow lot that they got. This is one of several reasons different load manuals may have data that disagrees. I'm not saying to rely on Hodgdon data blindly, but if the powder is one they distribute, be sure to include them in your data sources.
Another reason the published data often disagrees is people use different brands of cases and primers. To see what Hodgdon used, click the Print button on their site. If you use something different, your final charges may be different. I always like the advice to try to check three different sources and use the lowest starting load among them. The Hodgdon data is most likely to be average, but nothing is foolproof, so start small and work up.
back to me
So basically my thoughts were right i pulled the factory loads and got 64.2 gns of powder I ran the factory load thru the chrony
3117 3179 3207 Not the 3275 winchester claims ( and I have folks that feel my chrony reads high as i can get 3595 with my 7saum tipping the can but i have checked it with an ohler 35 shooting through both at same time maybe 10fps difference)
it shot a ok the first shot was the flier it could be because i had issues shooting a m70 for the first time but it shot right at 1 inch
not poi 2 inches high even though you cant tell
SO going by load data i checked a few powder charges for pressure 67 67.5 and 68 3125 3157 3201 heck that shot a good group lol
but note poi dead ctr to a lil low
basically to achieve the same speed as factory load 67.5gn w780 the poi at 3150 ish id dead on to a lil low
wild and amazing the things that affect poi )point of impact) also note same brass primer and bulletand COAL as factory load.....note first part of post
then i shot 2 different loads
first is 67.8 gn w780 to acheive the same speed as factory ammo these three shots avg 3161 with a sd of 5.00 it shot ok
then i put a lil heat on it
68.8 (69 is max)
3245 avg fps shot less than half inch
so enough about a winchester m70 before i get sick
i ran another group throught my m700 .223
winchester 45gn jhp factory ammo
3380 fps
remington is the best
i feel dirty now for i have cheated
