For hunting, what is considered a fmj? UPDATED

[Smokyrider]

So for hunting a fmj is prohibited but what is considered a fmj?
Reason I ask is I have some Fort Scott TUI ammo and was thinking of using it to do some hunting. It's a monolithic solid copper spun projectile that tumbles upon impact, so since it isn't jacketed, I think it's good to go but wanted to ask around abit as it looks just like a fmj.

 

[BMan]

Very interesting question.

 

[BPhunter]

They are designed for penetration and don't expand like a bullet designed for hunting.
BTW: As is the way of everything today: you are going to find it being debated heavily.

 

[Smokyrider]

They are designed for penetration and don't expand like a bullet designed for hunting.

According to thier website "Designed for versatility, the 300 Blackout excels in hunting, match shooting, and self-defense. The TUI® technology enables the bullet to tumble end-over-end upon impact with water-based tissue, creating a more effective and destructive wound channel."
First mention is for hunting, so if it isn't jacketed and designed for hunting then should be good to go, just don't know if it's a gray area for TWRA and don't want to find out in the field.

 

[yellalinehunter]

Not sure what the difference would be per definition between that and a monolithic hollow point in the eyes of green jeans.

 

[duvhntr]

I bet if you get checked in the field.. you get a ticket.. " fmj appearing "

 

[Smokyrider]

Just sent an email to the region 3 office to see if I can get some clarification, guess we'll see if they go by looks or bullet construction.

 

[BPhunter]

Just sent an email to the region 3 office to see if I can get some clarification, guess we'll see if they go by looks or bullet construction.

There are a lot of states that banned FMJ for hunting. Best to check and get hard documentation.

 

[Lt.Dan]

I would say TWRA is going to say that's FMJ, if you get an answer.

 

[Andy S.]

Document the response you get back from TWRA. Date, source, guidance received, etc.

 

[yellalinehunter]

Some states word hunting ammo as having mushrooming capability.

 

[Smokyrider]

Document the response you get back from TWRA. Date, source, guidance received, etc.

Yeah, curious to see if fmj is a generic term that can be applied loosely or a specific term for jacketed bullets where the jacket is full.

This is a non-jacketed, solid copper bullet, kind of like hard cast, which isn't a prohibited bullet.
Hopefully I get a response in writing that can be saved vs calling an just having something I waa told as proof.

 

[MickThompson]

Why not stick to proven, expanding bullet designs, regardless of legal requirements? There's a reason fmj isn't legal.

 

[Smokyrider]

Why not stick to proven, expanding bullet designs, regardless of legal requirements? There's a reason fmj isn't legal.

This bullet performs completely different than a fmj creating a wound channel like an expanding bullet, if it's just as effective, then why not? I like the versatility of it.

 

[BMan]

Why not stick to proven, expanding bullet designs, regardless of legal requirements? There's a reason fmj isn't legal.

What exactly is the reason?

As the OP points out, those bullets are not jacketed - they are fully copper projectiles.

 

[TAFKAP]

Yeah, curious to see if fmj is a generic term that can be applied loosely or a specific term for jacketed bullets where the jacket is full.

This is a non-jacketed, solid copper bullet, kind of like hard cast, which isn't a prohibited bullet.
Hopefully I get a response in writing that can be saved vs calling an just having something I waa told as proof.

I expect that the law was written when there was a pretty standard differentiation between FMJ for target shooting & expanding soft nosed hunting rounds.

I think if it were me trying to use it, I'd carry the ammo box with me. Just because it looks like an FMJ doesn't mean it performs in the same way. That is definitely a hunting round and not one designed for complete pass-through where entry/exit wounds are the same diameter.

 

[TAFKAP]

Why not stick to proven, expanding bullet designs, regardless of legal requirements? There's a reason fmj isn't legal.

I don't know if it just so happens that his picture is of .300BLK rounds, or if he's actually using .300BLK.

But my experience in post-COVID ammo times is that finding good BLK hunting rounds is fairly complex these days. Whitebox Remington plinking rounds still have an open-tipped JHP. Is this a prohibited FMJ or not?

The Remington Hog Hammer (which was my absolute favorite) used an open tipped Barnes solid copper bullet, but it's not available anymore. The Winchester WhiteTailXP was an attrocious round for me and my hunting, and I would pay someone else $47 to get them out of my hands.

 

[BPhunter]

I expect that the law was written when there was a pretty standard differentiation between FMJ for target shooting & expanding soft nosed hunting rounds.

I think if it were me trying to use it, I'd carry the ammo box with me. Just because it looks like an FMJ doesn't mean it performs in the same way. That is definitely a hunting round and not one designed for complete pass-through where entry/exit wounds are the same diameter.

Still best to get hard documentation, for your own sake.

 

[Smokyrider]

I don't know if it just so happens that his picture is of .300BLK rounds, or if he's actually using .300BLK.

But my experience in post-COVID ammo times is that finding good BLK hunting rounds is fairly complex these days. Whitebox Remington plinking rounds still have an open-tipped JHP. Is this a prohibited FMJ or not?

The Remington Hog Hammer (which was my absolute favorite) used an open tipped Barnes solid copper bullet, but it's not available anymore. The Winchester WhiteTailXP was an attrocious round for me and my hunting, and I would pay someone else $47 to get them out of my hands.

I have 4 different 300blk guns, been using a 6.5 Grendel but am trying out the 300blk now, the bullet shown is a 190gr 300blk and it did just fine on a hog last weekend but hogs are not a game animal. I am testing 190gr TUI, 190gr Sub-X, 125gr TGK and 110gr Tac-tx. The TUI has peaked my curiosity as it is engineered and designed differently then a traditional cup & core, that is why I was wanting to do some hunting with it besides invasive species control.

 

[knightrider]

You arent gonna be checked anyways, even the one time i was checked over 20 years ago on a wma, they didt look at or ask anything about my gun or ammo, just was making sure i had paid for that unconstitutional license they make me by

 

[TAFKAP]

I have 4 different 300blk guns, been using a 6.5 Grendel but am trying out the 300blk now, the bullet shown is a 190gr 300blk and it did just fine on a hog last weekend but hogs are not a game animal. I am testing 190gr TUI, 190gr Sub-X, 125gr TGK and 110gr Tac-tx. The TUI has peaked my curiosity as it is engineered and designed differently then a traditional cup & core, that is why I was wanting to do some hunting with it besides invasive species control.

I've not been able to find a replacement to the Hog Hammer. I'd be interested in your results because the copper bullet has been great out of my rifle. 1:9 twist, 18" AR15

110gr Barnes TTX got inconsistent performance
125gr Remington Hog Hammer (with Barnes copper bullets) was absolutely perfect. Great consistency out of the barrel, and no deer I've hit with it ever took another step
150gr Winchester Deer Season WhiteTail XP - shoulder shot on a goat-sized doe. Projectile never exited, shattered into a million lead shards, and did tremendous meat damage. Sure, deer was immediately killed so the lack of exit wound wasn't an issue here. But I wasted a whole quarter between meat damage and lead shards throughout
220gr SubSonics just haven't offered the shot consistency I want. And with the slow trajectory, I didn't want to relearn how to shoot my rifle to compensate 4" of drop between 50yds - 125 yds.

 

[BPhunter]

You arent gonna be checked anyways, even the one time i was checked over 20 years ago on a wma, they didt look at or ask anything about my gun or ammo, just was making sure i had paid for that unconstitutional license they make me by

Yes sir....it ain't about safety, it ain't about a humane kill, it's about only money. And chances are you are correct, I've never had my ammo checked when hunting with CF ammo.

 

[Omega]

What exactly is the reason?

As the OP points out, those bullets are not jacketed - they are fully copper projectiles.

Never understood the reasoning some give, I have to use FMJ at war so it kills humanely (as per Hague Convention/laws of war), but have to use soft point or hollow point for game animals, for a clean kill .

I've read (and agree with) that it was do to pass-throughs, not a humane kill, for safety reasons they want to minimize the speed at which a projectile exits the game animal to keep from hitting an unintended target, be it animal, human, or property. So to me, solid projectiles have a much better chance of acting like a FMJ unless specifically designed to crush or bend at the tip to slow it down at the exit. For deer, I stick with the 110 blacktips unless wanting subs , they work quite well on soft skinned animals, and have done ok with hogs as well. I have some solid projectiles (forget mfg) for my 300BLK which have scores along the tip to allow it to mushroom and or shed petals but I got them for SD purposes not hunting.

 

[Omega]

I've not been able to find a replacement to the Hog Hammer. I'd be interested in your results because the copper bullet has been great out of my rifle. 1:9 twist, 18" AR15

110gr Barnes TTX got inconsistent performance
125gr Remington Hog Hammer (with Barnes copper bullets) was absolutely perfect. Great consistency out of the barrel, and no deer I've hit with it ever took another step
150gr Winchester Deer Season WhiteTail XP - shoulder shot on a goat-sized doe. Projectile never exited, shattered into a million lead shards, and did tremendous meat damage. Sure, deer was immediately killed so the lack of exit wound wasn't an issue here. But I wasted a whole quarter between meat damage and lead shards throughout
220gr SubSonics just haven't offered the shot consistency I want. And with the slow trajectory, I didn't want to relearn how to shoot my rifle to compensate 4" of drop between 50yds - 125 yds.

The Hog Hammers used 130 gr Barnes TSX projectiles (open tip) which are still available for reloading, I bought a box or 10 of them.

https://www.natchezss.com/barnes-ct-tsx-30cal-308-130gr-bt-bx30345

 

[BMan]

Never understood the reasoning some give, I have to use FMJ at war so it kills humanely (as per Hague Convention/laws of war), but have to use soft point or hollow point for game animals, for a clean kill .

I've read (and agree with) that it was do to pass-throughs, not a humane kill, for safety reasons they want to minimize the speed at which a projectile exits the game animal to keep from hitting an unintended target, be it animal, human, or property. So to me, solid projectiles have a much better chance of acting like a FMJ unless specifically designed to crush or bend at the tip to slow it down at the exit. For deer, I stick with the 110 blacktips unless wanting subs , they work quite well on soft skinned animals, and have done ok with hogs as well. I have some solid projectiles (forget mfg) for my 300BLK which have scores along the tip to allow it to mushroom and or shed petals but I got them for SD purposes not hunting.

I have not found anywhere that provides the justification for banning FMJ ammo in hunting. I assume the same as you; in that event, these spun copper projectiles meet the goal of a clean kill and minimized pass-thru so they should be legal to hunt with.

If you do a search for FMJ ammo, every explanation I've seen (NOT by TWRA mind you) is a lead core completely covered with a metal jacket to minimize fouling. Fact of the matter is, there is already ammunition being produced without a lead core - these are but one example. TWRA needs to clarify what exactly FMJ is and whether these new projectiles are in fact banned or not.

 

[TAFKAP]

So are you reloading copycat Hog Hammers in .300BLK????

 

[BPhunter]

I have not found anywhere that provides the justification for banning FMJ ammo in hunting. I assume the same as you; in that event, these spun copper projectiles meet the goal of a clean kill and minimized pass-thru so they should be legal to hunt with.

If you do a search for FMJ ammo, every explanation I've seen (NOT by TWRA mind you) is a lead core completely covered with a metal jacket to minimize fouling. Fact of the matter is, there is already ammunition being produced without a lead core - these are but one example. TWRA needs to clarify what exactly FMJ is and whether these new projectiles are in fact banned or not.

They won't clarify, probably because they are not qualified, so they they just make up crap as they go.

 

[Omega]

So are you reloading copycat Hog Hammers in .300BLK????

Yes, and no, I got these early on when no 300BLK ammo was to be had, and reloaded according to some reloading info I put together from online sources, some bullet, powder Mfg., and some pet loads. Can't recall the load data I used ATM, but somewhere around 17 gr of IMR 4227 or H110/296. I remember that it was close to the same data for the 130gr TTSX.

Found some of my older info:

Hodgdon's 2012 Annual Manual has:

Bullet: 130gr Barnes TSX BT

Primer: WSR
Powder: Lil'gun 19.0 gr
Speed: 2203
SD: 12
Group: .77 inch
Force: 1401
COAL/OAL: 2.040


Primer: CCI400
Powder: H110 17.2 gr
Speed: 2102
SD: 16
Group: .49 inch
Force: 1276
COAL/OAL: 2.040

The mag says these are near max range so be sure to work up to the numbers they have posted.

 

[TAFKAP]

At my previous job, a buddy used the last of a can of IMR 4227 to test it out, and he bought the dies for .300BLK. We had settled on 17.9gr using some Nosler 125gr bullets. We had three "recipes" for various muzzle velocities (16.8, 17.0, and 17.2 grains) that didn't require compressing the powder. The 17.2gr was just as reliable as the 16.8 grain, so that's what we went with.

I quit that job before it was my turn to buy a can of IMR, which was impossible to find at that time. We never had a chance to crank out sufficient batches, so I never got the opportunity to develop any data. Then COVID hit and I really miss the ability to hand load those rounds since ammo selection is crap now.

 

[Omega]

At my previous job, a buddy used the last of a can of IMR 4227 to test it out, and he bought the dies for .300BLK. We had settled on 17.9gr using some Nosler 125gr bullets. We had three "recipes" for various muzzle velocities (16.8, 17.0, and 17.2 grains) that didn't require compressing the powder. The 17.2gr was just as reliable as the 16.8 grain, so that's what we went with.

I quit that job before it was my turn to buy a can of IMR, which was impossible to find at that time. We never had a chance to crank out sufficient batches, so I never got the opportunity to develop any data. Then COVID hit and I really miss the ability to hand load those rounds since ammo selection is crap now.

I managed to get some from Midsouth, they had it where you could place it on backorder so I had 2lbs of many powders on BO. When they came in I picked up what I needed, they allowed a few days to decide if you wanted it, but I never passed any up.