Winchester
Well-Known Member
I already have some fawns on the ground. This is definitely early for my area and may explain some of the questions I had with last Falls Rut?? BSK, whats your take?
Fawns on the ground.
- Thread starter Winchester
- Start date
Nice, thanks for sharing Scott. If you are laying eyes on them, they probably have been on the ground 10-14 days.
Winchester
Well-Known Member
Andy, they are atleast that old. Odd for us as this is earlier than I ever remember in this area? Comical to look at their tracks as well, small as my thumbnail! My estimates are these does were bred in early October???? BSK??? Andy, have you saw and this early?
It appears that may be the case.Winchester said:
woodsman87
Well-Known Member
I remember seeing one last year on Memorial day weekend, and another different one two weekends later.
This was in my area of Giles county, where I normally see best rut activity from Thanksgiving to December 14th, with December 7th being the best to see a mature buck on the move.
The way I calculated it would have been bred in October. Odd timing. Usually July 4th is when I start seeing them.
This was in my area of Giles county, where I normally see best rut activity from Thanksgiving to December 14th, with December 7th being the best to see a mature buck on the move.
The way I calculated it would have been bred in October. Odd timing. Usually July 4th is when I start seeing them.
Winchester
Well-Known Member
Very interesting for sure and if I continue to see them in more areas here it may explain some of the Total absence of rutting behavior at normal times last Fall??? I just don't think the breeding timing would change that much that fast??
Boll Weevil
Well-Known Member
I know there's a wide breeding-window but another phenomenon I've observered is how the impact of doe harvest can gradually affect timing and intensity of the rut in a given locality.
I saw it happen 1st in MS where as a kid we just had a few doe days...does were sacred and sex ratios were totally out of whack. The rut didi't even start to warm up until late December and peaked in January. After 15-20 years of liberal doe harvest, peak observable rutting activity has clearly moved up by several weeks. I don't have fetal/research data or anything, the rut appears to be completely different than what it was years ago.
Took a long time and it's very incremental, but might this be some of what you're seeing as well?
I saw it happen 1st in MS where as a kid we just had a few doe days...does were sacred and sex ratios were totally out of whack. The rut didi't even start to warm up until late December and peaked in January. After 15-20 years of liberal doe harvest, peak observable rutting activity has clearly moved up by several weeks. I don't have fetal/research data or anything, the rut appears to be completely different than what it was years ago.
Took a long time and it's very incremental, but might this be some of what you're seeing as well?
oldmanelrod
Well-Known Member
Winchester said:
Makes me wonder if Mother Nature has something coming up in the future and is prepairing the heard with earlier than normal fawn births.
Winchester
Well-Known Member
BW interesting for sure. Does were definitely sacred and protected here in East TN for many decades. I don't see things changing that drastically, that fast however, as our Rut has been mid/late Nov for many yrs now. Definitely got me scratching my head and cant wait to see if this is covering a large area here?Boll Weevil said:
Bone Collector
Well-Known Member
I am convinced in Mid TN that does start getting bred in October and then the main rut kicks in in November and then the secondary rut (really the 3rd rut) is in Dec.
I do have some fat does on my trail cams, so i assume the ones out by my property were probably bred in November, but I have never seen or gotten a pic of a fawn out there.
I do have some fat does on my trail cams, so i assume the ones out by my property were probably bred in November, but I have never seen or gotten a pic of a fawn out there.
Normally yes, but if you out doing farm work you see them at all ages. This one was still wet with placenta. I was bush hogging when I found this little guy.Andy S. said:
A
Anonymous
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Will the doe come back to that fawn now? Is it just an old wives tale that they abandon them after a human touches them?
WhitesCreek
Well-Known Member
I'm in Nashville and I saw two fawns this evening on my property that appear to be a few weeks old.
With that early rutting activity obvious, you may be tempting BSK to blow the dust off that old bow and hit the woods in Oct now! :grin:
MrWhitetail said:
They will and she did! She was very agressive towards me. In fact she ran up and started licking the fawn when I was still only ten yards away!
DaveB
Well-Known Member
There's a thread somewhere---The false rut, when does go into a system-wakeup-estrus a month ahead of the real rut. That was when a lot of breeding took place last year. In October and nocturnal.
Mike Belt
Well-Known Member
There are probably always a few does in a herd that will enter estrus 1 month earlier than their counterparts and I'd lean more towards believing that had something to do with their genetic makeup than anything else. What would be interesting to know would be if it was those same does doing so yearly. Although many saw examples of the rut last year almost everyone I know were left scratching their heads wondering when it was going to crank up; especially since we had prime cold weather preceding our typical rutting time frame by 3-4 weeks. We all figured it was going to be a super time to be in the woods. We're still waiting although we all know it happened...sometime last year. It would appear that the colder weather jump started the rut by 2 or more weeks and for whatever reason, it never fired up by typical standards. It may be a rare example of temperature driven weather over riding photoperiodism.
BSK
Well-Known Member
oldmanelrod said:
This would assume that Nature can predict future weather/events. This most assuredly is not correct.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Bone Collector said:
Just remember that in a tightly timed rut there will be a 10-14 day period where more than 50% of breeding occur, but it still takes 5-6 weeks for 95% of does to be bred. The other 5% can be bred virtually at any time. As BGG can attest, research has found fawn births--hence breeding dates--during virtually every month of the year. Nature works through variation. The more variations, the more chances for Natural Selection to fine-tune a species to the local conditions. But the point being, with 95% of breeding stretching over 5-6 weeks, even in an area of Middle TN with a tightly timed rut, having some breeding occur from late October through early December would be normal.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Mike Belt said:
I don't think it was weather Mike. I believe it was herd health. But more on that in a later post...
PillsburyDoughboy
Well-Known Member
PillsburyDoughboy
Well-Known Member
I think the rut is tied to a diminishing ratio of daylight to darkness that triggers behavioral and physiological changes that lead to breeding moreso than the weather.
Weather..specifically cooler weather triggers a deers instinct to feed and gain weight and add fat with anticipation for a hard winter as food recourses tend to dry up for deer in late winter. Especially for Northern Deer and Western Deer.
We in the south do not have as hard of winters and have pretty good food sources for the deer year round
Weather..specifically cooler weather triggers a deers instinct to feed and gain weight and add fat with anticipation for a hard winter as food recourses tend to dry up for deer in late winter. Especially for Northern Deer and Western Deer.
We in the south do not have as hard of winters and have pretty good food sources for the deer year round
Mike Belt
Well-Known Member
I agree that photoperiodism is the mitigating factor in kicking the rut off but.....last season didn't "appear" that way. I also agree that herd health also plays an integral role. Just judging by what I experienced on our 18,600 acres where the herd numbers, health, sex ratios, food sources, predation, and land practices have remained a fairly constant over the past few years, I firmly believe there was something different about last year's rut more than herd health or the amount of/lack of sunlight. The same could be said of several hunting parcels scattered over SW Tn.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Boll Weevil said:
This is absolutely true Boll Weevil. In the Deep South, research has shown that major alterations in adult sex ratio, buck age structure, and herd health can produce profound changes in peak breeding. By improving all of these factors, peak breeding has been shifted forward on the calendar by more than a month.
However, this ability to shift breeding earlier diminishes the farther north deer live. In my opinion (from what I've seen), I believe peak breeding in the MidSouth can only be shifted forward a maximum of two weeks. North of the Ohio River, I don't think it can be shifted forward at all.
The only way to really know when peak breeding occurs is to measure fetuses from pregnant does a month or more into their pregnancy. To collect the full range of fall/winter breeding dates, fetuses need to be measured from does harvested in March and/or April (to catch the rare February breedings). Because we cannot legally kill does in March, we as hunters can never produce enough fetal data to actually determine peak breeding dates. Without this clear cut data, we have to rely on anecdotal data (which tends to make me nervous, but you have to work with the available information, even if it may be flawed). From comparisons of fetal data to numerous sources of anecdotal data, I believe scrape-watching produces the most accurate indicator of peak breeding. When fetal conception data indicates peak breeding is occurring (the 10-14 day window when more than 50% of does are bred), mature buck visits to scrapes declines (trail-camera data), and visually, scrapes appear to "go dead," as in not being reworked. Trail-cameras show that young bucks are still visiting the scrapes during this period, but for some reason, they do not display the full sequence of behaviors at the scrape. They work the overhanging limb, but they do not paw out the scrape. This "dead period" of scrape-working usually last about 7-10 days before mature bucks are back at them and reopening them. So by watching scrapes, and keeping track of the dates when scrapes suddenly "go dead" during the rut, hunters can keep fairly close track of when their peak local breeding is occurring.
Using this technique over many years, I watched the peak of breeding on my property in western Middle TN slowly shift forwards on the calendar over the last 25 years. I believe the slowly improving herd structure in my area is the culprit for this slow progression forwards in peak breeding. In the early years, the adult sex ratio was skewed heavily towards females and the buck age structure was extremely poor (probably 70% of the male population was yearlings, and a 3 1/2 year-old buck was a real rarity). Now, in my local area, bucks outnumber does, and fully mature bucks exist in healthy numbers. In the early years, scrapes would go dead somewhere in the Nov. 23-29 timeframe. In the last few years, scrapes now go dead in the Nov. 12-18 timeframe. That's about 11 days earlier over a 25-year span.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Winchester said:
Sorry for all the long-winded previous posts before answering your original question Winchester, but I needed to "set the stage" for this response.
As a "person of science," I'm always uncomfortable stating a radical opinion without hard data to back up my claims. So "what happened this year" is a tough question to answer without hard data (no fetal conception data). As I've mentioned many times in the past, recording when we as hunters observe the most daylight rutting activity (bucks chasing does) is a terrible indicator of actual breeding dates. Without actual fetal conception dates, I can only estimate when peak breeding occurs using the best available anecdotal data, and in my opinion, that is the aforementioned scrape observations, and scrape-working observed on trail-cameras. And again as I've stated many times, no matter what we see while hunting, peak breeding in any given location generally occurs on the same calendar dates each year--with the exception of slow shifts in breeding dates over many years due to changes in herd dynamics. But again, these herd structure-driven shifts are generally slow and only in one direction. They do not bounce around from year to year.
Using the anecdotal indicators previously mentioned, I've watched breeding dates in my local area fall on about the same dates every year, with the exception of the slow shift forward in dates over 25+ years. However, there have been two very intense exceptions (using the anecdotal data). The first was in 2007; the year of the record heat, drought, and EHD outbreak. All of my anecdotal data sources indicated a peak breeding 2-3 weeks late that year. If these data sources are accurate, and we really did experience a late peak breeding, I would guess the culprit was poor herd health, as many deer had suffered from EHD and the poor fall food resources produce by a complete acorn failure and lack of food sources created by record late-summer drought and heat.
The second time anecdotal data indicated a major change in breeding dates was last year. Looking at the data from my property and all of the other properties I monitor in the local area, it appeared peak breeding occurred several weeks early, primarily the last week in October through the first week of November. Honestly, I'm at a loss to explain how this could have happened. I know of no research which has ever observed a one-year shift forward in breeding dates so profound. Yet looking at "what was different" last year, I can only point to the very early and wet spring, plus very mild and wet summer we had. I've never seen so much high-value natural food sources available to deer so early in the spring nor stretching so far through summer before. That is the only thing I can possibly "pin" the advanced rut on (if that early rut was even a reality).
And by the way, as a corroboration to your observations of early fawns, my parents in southern KY twice observed newborn fawns dead on the road near their house in early April this year.
Winchester
Well-Known Member
Very interesting BSK and after seeing another set of brand new twins just yesterday, it appears our does were bred much earlier than normal across atleast a good size area here as well. I agree 100% as well that the craziness across the board in 2007 pushed the rut back a few weeks and would agree that last yr was the mildest and best 'growing' conditions for deer that I may have ever saw in atleast my adult life. These conditions did however end with Summer, as we then had a complete Acorn failure, followed by the coldest and worst Winter in a long time. It will be interesting to see how all last yrs changes will affect this yr? What do you think the does getting bred so early last yr will do to their timing this yr? If anything? I also agree that the cold Fall weather last yr had nothing to do with the very early breeding, as the deer have no way of forecasting weather far in advance.
Back to 2007 which is where it all started, and im not sure we have had what I would consider a normal (textbook) Fall, for deer behavior since that yr?
Back to 2007 which is where it all started, and im not sure we have had what I would consider a normal (textbook) Fall, for deer behavior since that yr?
DaveB
Well-Known Member
Deer just can't change their estrus cycle without some kind of fairly intensive event. 2007 okay, got it. Last year? no way they knew winter was gonna be harsh and they needed to get their fawns an early start for best survival chances. So we are seeing some evidence that points to a late October estrous which is two weeks early, that reasonable? I was in the woods for the Juvi and there was zero sign of deer breeding at all.
And correct me please, but this was NOT a Tennessee event right? Weren't hunters all over the place complaining of no/limited rut?
So the only thing that was geographically widespread was the brutal winter. Now, deer and fuzzy worms don't talk and I doubt deer split open persimmons and saw that predictor. How do we get this kind of very similar behavior over a widespread geographical area?
And correct me please, but this was NOT a Tennessee event right? Weren't hunters all over the place complaining of no/limited rut?
So the only thing that was geographically widespread was the brutal winter. Now, deer and fuzzy worms don't talk and I doubt deer split open persimmons and saw that predictor. How do we get this kind of very similar behavior over a widespread geographical area?
BSK
Well-Known Member
Winchester said:
I couldn't agree more Winchester. I have no idea what lingering effects there might be, if any. But I'll be watching closely this year.
Agreed. It seems like so many things changed with the deer herds post 2007. Nothing has been exactly the same since.
BSK
Well-Known Member
DaveB said:
Excellent, excellent post DaveB, and all great questions.
But my answer (what there is of it) is really more questions than answers. First, it's pretty common for hunters across an entire region to express a common "anomaly" they are witnessing in a given year. Early rut, no rut, late rut, are all common themes across the Midwest or even the whole Eastern U.S. in a given year. I would LOVE to find some insight into what causes these widespread patterns in common hunter observations (I suspect they are climate related, but can't prove it). HOWEVER, here's the big kicker. In most years, it doesn't matter what hunters are reporting seeing during daylight hunting. My anecdotal data sources will still indicate the peak of breeding occurred right when it always does. Even when I agree with other hunters that we are seeing something strange with hunting observations regionally, the scrape data still indicates the peak of breeding at its normal time. In essence, what many hunters are observing is purely a DAYLIGHT anomaly. The peak of breeding dates really haven't changed. So the first big question is, what drives these unusual regional patterns in strange DAYLIGHT rutting activity observations?
Yet in 2007, and last year, the anecdotal data actually strongly corroborated what hunters were observing--a very bizarre rut timing. Of course the big question is, is the anecdotal data accurate? And if it is, what caused these very rare single year major shifts in breeding timing?
Lastly, what I found very interesting about last year was that MOST of the observations of abnormally early (or non-existent) rutting activity was being heard from hunters hunting areas with a normal peak breeding of early to mid-November. Most of the reports I was hearing from areas with a December and early January peak breeding were that the rut was right on time. Why the difference (if there really was one)? Unfortunately, I have no anecdotal data from these December and later peak breeding areas to compare against.
BHC
Well-Known Member
I saw the first 1.5 yr old showing rutting interest on Nov. 1st. I saw the first mature buck chasing on Nov 7th. Peak chasing was nov 20-25. Multiple bucks chasing does per sitting. The last chase was I saw was on Dec 28th. This was in Wayne co. Near the Hardin co. Line.
We typically see a boom in scraping activity between nov 5th, and Nov 10th...
We typically see a boom in scraping activity between nov 5th, and Nov 10th...
