Fact or Fiction

[Snake]

I'm not against shooting yotes believe me and have shot a few but they are never my target for fear of messing up my stand but some make it a given to shoot no matter , right ? OK not my question and if invited by any hunter to hunt and have been instructed to shoot on sight every yote I see I will do , so I'm waiting on an invite J/K . I've been told by others that yotes having a large number living in a particular area will breed less and if their numbers are low they will breed more thus never being able to get rid of them hunting them the conventional way , is this true ??

 

[Hunter 257W]

I think what happens with coyote reproduction vs. habitat is that healthier coyotes have larger litters rather than them actually breeding more. I don't think there is any conscious action taken by the animals to increase reproduction in response to a population reduction. But whatever the cause, what you are saying is what I've always heard too. In other words, shooting a few while deer hunting isn't going to make any significant difference in there numbers. Especially if you are expecting to reduce fawn kills noticeably. I know that but it sure makes me feel better busting one.

I don't know what has happened around my area to cause it, but coyote numbers sure seem to be way down. I haven't seen even one while hunting this year. Hardly got any on my trail cameras either AND there were more groundhog holes out in my bean field last year too. I never saw a groundhog at one of the holes and in fact didn't even know they had dug holes until the beans were combined, so there must still be enough coyotes to kill most all the groundhogs but regardless coyote numbers are way down. My neighbor said he trapped about a half dozen or so about 2 years ago but that wouldn't be enough to make such a difference surely.

Speaking of shooting them, I am planning to get my Remington 700 Mountain rifle in 221 Fireball out and check the zero soon and do some calling in a few months. A Sierra 50 grain Blitz at a bit over 3000 ft/sec is just the thing to bust those critters at mid ranges.

 

[Andy S.]

...... is this true ??

We had a very informed research biologist/trapper speak at Ames few years back about some of the coyote research he had done, both with shooting, and with trapping, in efforts to curtail the coyote populations for the better (fewer yotes). The gist of his research pretty much proved us hunters are not making a dent in them shooting the ones we see during deer season, or with basic coyote hunting, and the only way he saw any improvement on large acreage tracts (not small tracts) was very intensive trapping. Intensive trapping took about two years to see any noticeable decline in coyote numbers, or an uptick in the fawn survival rates, all things that showed some glimmer of hope of success. The kicker was that the intensive trapping costs a lot of money to sustain, so everyone quits after a year or two, and as soon as they quit the intense trapping, coyote numbers quickly returned to what they previously were. In short, shoot all you want for recreation, but do not fool yourself in thinking you are making an appreciable difference in the local coyote population, not today, nor in the near term.

 

[Hunter 257W]

Looking at this from a numbers standpoint, lets say that coyotes have a built in tendency to vary litter size, depending on the health of the female, upward 10% when they have plenty of feed. This is naturally going to happen when coyote numbers are down or prey animal numbers are up. Either situation insures that coyotes have plenty to eat and are at peak health., thus able to have larger litters. The only way humans can overcome this and reduce coyote numbers would be to suddenly remove significantly more than 10% of the coyotes so that they can't compensate by having more pups. You'd probably have to remove at least 25% of them to be able to see a difference and that isn't going to happen by casually shooting one now and then while deer hunting. I suppose an area that was really overrun with them to the point that deer hunters were seeing them frequently might not fit this theory and those hunters might be able to make a difference having that many opportunities to shoot coyotes.

 

[Snake]

So I guess my next question would be why mess up your hunting area to shoot a singular coyote every now and then ? Like Mike Belt said in another post that he would only shoot one if late in his hunt when he was about to quit for the set and that's kinda been my take .

 

[Andy S.]

One other thing he harped on was that you have your local coyotes, say the 15-20 that live in or around your farm, then you have transient coyotes that are more like roamers if you will. They are actively on the move and really do not have a home of sorts. As soon as you kill one of your home bodies, and the transient coyote comes through and recognizes the vacancy if you will, he sets up shop and instantly fills in the void you just created by shooting the coyote yesterday. I cannot remember if this was for both sexes, or just males, but I do remember that being a big part of why it basically does no good to shoot 3-4 here and there, when there are so many others strolling through ready to take their place and continue the reproductive cycle.

 

[Andy S.]

So I guess my next question would be why mess up your hunting area to shoot a singular coyote every now and then ?

One should only shoot them if they want, not in an effort to reduce the local population, because that is not going to happen. On the other hand, I have shot a rifle and killed does and bucks over the years, only to have other does and bucks stroll through the area in the next few minutes to an hour. I do not think the noise of the shot is a big a deal as many like to think.

 

[tahtah]

you have your local coyotes, say the 15-20 that live in or around your farm, then you have transient coyotes

I know there's no absolute answer to this, but any idea what would be a typical size area or range for a local group of coyotes? Also, assuming good conditions (food, habitat, etc.), how many coyotes would typically make up a local group?

 

[megalomaniac]

It's my understanding the alpha pair does all the reproducing in an area and controls litter size and frequency based on carrying capacity. Shooting the average coyote doesn't do too much for the population overall, unless you get lucky and remove one of the alphas.... in that case no reproduction occurs until a new alpha pair is established. There is continually new information coming out on coyote biology.

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[TheLBLman]

Every area is different, but believe we can all do some things that provide better opportunities for fawns and deer to have improved odds and be less targeted by coyotes.

This can start with a healthy deer herd, which typically includes not killing many more males than females annually on an ongoing basis. By having a near "natural" buck:doe ratio, we get more "prey saturation", whereby so many fawns are born in a short time period that coyotes cannot possibly get but a small percentage. By contrast, when there are too few bucks doing the breeding, the fawning is spread out over months more than weeks, and coyotes learn to hunt more specifically for fawns instead of their more natural year-round prey of rodents & rabbits.

Then, producing widespread "cover" like tall weeds & briars gives advantage to deer as they can often "leap" over it better than a coyote can push through it. Deer in habitat that is mostly mature hardwoods and crop fields would have a disadvantage escaping a coyote, compared to deer in CRP and other "cover" habitat.

And, the same type cover that gives deer better odds of escaping coyotes is also typically habitat that produces prey coyotes would typically prefer over deer.

In much of my hunting areas, although they are opportunist, the coyotes appear to focus mainly on finding rats, mice, and rabbits. I'm making sure the habitat is producing lots of rabbits & rodents. Will this cause me to have more coyotes? I don't know. But I'm convinced we'll never not have them, and I seem to have fewer coyotes now than in times past. If I believed the coyotes were making a significant reduction in our local fawn survival, I'd be more into trapping them. But since we cannot eliminate them, I'm trying to provide them plenty to eat other than deer, mainly via diverse habitat.

Don't get me wrong, I hate coyotes, and will shoot one when I can.
But I don't think they're as hard on deer (in most TN areas) as most hunters think.
Sometimes we're shown trail cam pics of a coyote walking off with a deer leg or a fawn, presented as "evidence" how the coyotes are killing our deer, but often, that coyote just stumbled upon a dead or dying deer. Coyotes are opportunists, and nothing will bring them quicker than the smell of blood. Some even seem to have even learned to associate a rifle shot with a gut pile. And year round, deer get injured and/or killed in the wild via ways having nothing to do with a hunter. These injured/dead deer will often get eaten by coyotes, but that does not mean those coyotes were the primary cause of death to many the deer they eat.

 

[GreyGoose]

...... is this true ??

We had a very informed research biologist/trapper speak at Ames few years back about some of the coyote research he had done, both with shooting, and with trapping, in efforts to curtail the coyote populations for the better (fewer yotes). The gist of his research pretty much proved us hunters are not making a dent in them shooting the ones we see during deer season, or with basic coyote hunting, and the only way he saw any improvement on large acreage tracts (not small tracts) was very intensive trapping. Intensive trapping took about two years to see any noticeable decline in coyote numbers, or an uptick in the fawn survival rates, all things that showed some glimmer of hope of success. The kicker was that the intensive trapping costs a lot of money to sustain, so everyone quits after a year or two, and as soon as they quit the intense trapping, coyote numbers quickly returned to what they previously were. In short, shoot all you want for recreation, but do not fool yourself in thinking you are making an appreciable difference in the local coyote population, not today, nor in the near term.

^^^^this^^^^thanks andy for this input

 

[Biggun4214]

It's my understanding the alpha pair does all the reproducing in an area and controls litter size and frequency based on carrying capacity. Shooting the average coyote doesn't do too much for the population overall, unless you get lucky and remove one of the alphas.... in that case no reproduction occurs until a new alpha pair is established. There is continually new information coming out on coyote biology.

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From the studies I've seen subordinate females will breed if the carrying capacity is low, but the alpha pair still rules the roost. Also coyotes are territorial and if the local group is weakened others will displace them. If the local group aren't causing problems, so to speak, weakening them can allow "rouges" to take over the territory.

I know there are several coyotes around my house and when I had beagles and rat terriers the dogs were never bothered. Also the neighborhood cats don't seem to have a problem surviving around the local coyotes.

 

[TheLBLman]

I know there are several coyotes around my house and when I had beagles and rat terriers the dogs were never bothered. Also the neighborhood cats don't seem to have a problem surviving around the local coyotes.

I have also noticed that "local" coyotes seem to ignore "local" housecats & small dogs.
Thoughts on why?

 

[Snake]

I know there are several coyotes around my house and when I had beagles and rat terriers the dogs were never bothered. Also the neighborhood cats don't seem to have a problem surviving around the local coyotes.

I have also noticed that "local" coyotes seem to ignore "local" housecats & small dogs.
Thoughts on why?

I would think they are not having problems filling their gut or if hungry I would assume the local cat or small dog would be on the menu .

 

[Biggun4214]

The way it was explained to me is that some "local" populations prefer to feed on small mammals and birds rather than domestic animals and larger mammals, i.e. deer. To my knowledge my neighbors that have cattle don't lose calves to coyotes either but they have fed on the afterbirths. This may be a learned behavior. Even traveling through the area the coyotes do not travel through my yard but I have saw them in neighbors' yards that border mine. I often see rabbits in my yard also.
I had a male lab that weighed about 100 pounds for several years and they may have learned to stay out of his yard.

Anyone that has hunted coyotes call tell you they are smart animals and adapt quickly.



Another thing to remember about all predators, that other than man, they will not decimate their food source.

 

[TheLBLman]

Another thing to remember about all predators, that other than man, they will not decimate their food source.

That does seem to hold more true than not.
I think predators often just move around, sometimes traveling great distances, for easier hunting,
as their prey may be more abundant and less wary wherever they have been hunting less.

 

[megalomaniac]

They are completely different animals in different states. Perhaps due to cross breeding with dogs or wolves (it is my understanding that genetic studies are in process), and likewise, feed/prey differently. On my farms, they have adapted to feed on deer and especially fawns. As I've mentioned before, I only have a 10% fawn recruitment rate this year. They also prey on adult deer. The last 2 I shot back in December were the alpha pair working together trying to cut out a doe from a group of 8. Another coyote invader saved the does, as the alpha pair took off after him instead. He led them right to me. The intruder wouldn't stop (literally running like a scalded dog), but the alpha pair paused when I squealed and I was able to get them both. I've witnessed coyotes chasing adult deer at full speed several times before in years past. They are horrible on my farms and some are huge.

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[TheLBLman]

They are horrible on my farms and some are huge.[/quote]
Really curious about the nature if your habitat?

 

[megalomaniac]

They are horrible on my farms and some are huge.[/quote]
Really curious about the nature if your habitat?[/quote]Mostly.open cow pastures and hayfields with about 25% of.total acreage in hardwoods of varying ages. Plenty of thickets, but they are small

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[megalomaniac]

I suspect fawn loss is due to so many does fawning.in the hayfields. Easy pickings...

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[Fitchj13]

I've seen several which appeared to be 'trailing' deer. And I've seen deer come right behind a coyote - within 10 minutes - and not hesitate. I don't shoot em if it's before 9:30 ( my made up time limit) but open season any other time. I never have seen more than 1 at a time even though I hear what sounds like a large pack at night. Did pop 3 one morning but usually 1 and done.

 

[Winchester]

...... is this true ??

We had a very informed research biologist/trapper speak at Ames few years back about some of the coyote research he had done, both with shooting, and with trapping, in efforts to curtail the coyote populations for the better (fewer yotes). The gist of his research pretty much proved us hunters are not making a dent in them shooting the ones we see during deer season, or with basic coyote hunting, and the only way he saw any improvement on large acreage tracts (not small tracts) was very intensive trapping. Intensive trapping took about two years to see any noticeable decline in coyote numbers, or an uptick in the fawn survival rates, all things that showed some glimmer of hope of success. The kicker was that the intensive trapping costs a lot of money to sustain, so everyone quits after a year or two, and as soon as they quit the intense trapping, coyote numbers quickly returned to what they previously were. In short, shoot all you want for recreation, but do not fool yourself in thinking you are making an appreciable difference in the local coyote population, not today, nor in the near term.

Agree 100% I dont make the noise to kill them most hunts.

 

[Mike Belt]

Not to change the subject but a little different spin on coyotes... Anyone ever see a deer chasing a coyote? I was set up off the side of a ridge facing across a hollow to the next ridge over. There was a heavily used deer trail cutting across the ridge I was facing. I heard commotion and a coyote came running across the ridge with a 6 pointer not 25 feet off his tail chasing him. The buck wasn't a big buck but he had that dog convinced he meant business. Only time I've ever seen anything like that.

 

[Mmathi05]

Few days back just before season was over I had one female coyote slip in on me. Apparently she was in heat because there were 3 males right behind her. I shot her and they continued to state around trying to get to her even though she was piled up dead. Wound up killing two of the males. All the boys were after her and she was decent sized.

 

[MRUTVOL]

So I guess my next question would be why mess up your hunting area to shoot a singular coyote every now and then ? Like Mike Belt said in another post that he would only shoot one if late in his hunt when he was about to quit for the set and that's kinda been my take .

I used to pass up yotes thinking same thing but when I mentioned to the landowner I was passing up yotes he told me if I wanted to hunt his property not to pass up any yotes and if he found out I was then I was done hunting there. So I started shooting every yote I seen and have killed many a deer after shooting one . Of course as the old saying goes what you dont know wont hurt you so how many deer I spooked that I did not see is unknown but I wanted to continue to hunt the property. That has been probably 30 plus years ago and I still hunt it and have killed tons of yotes over those years.

 

[MRUTVOL]

Don't get me wrong, I hate coyotes, and will shoot one when I can.
But I don't think they're as hard on deer (in most TN areas) as most hunters think.
Sometimes we're shown trail cam pics of a coyote walking off with a deer leg or a fawn, presented as "evidence" how the coyotes are killing our deer, but often, that coyote just stumbled upon a dead or dying deer. Coyotes are opportunists, and nothing will bring them quicker than the smell of blood. Some even seem to have even learned to associate a rifle shot with a gut pile. And year round, deer get injured and/or killed in the wild via ways having nothing to do with a hunter. These injured/dead deer will often get eaten by coyotes, but that does not mean those coyotes were the primary cause of death to many the deer they eat.

Local GW told me they put a camera on a den of young coyotes and monitored them and during the time they watched them there were 11 different days that the mother brought a fawn to the den to feed the young . That can take a toll real quick if the yote population is high in the area I would think.

 

[Andy S.]

I used to pass up yotes thinking same thing but when I mentioned to the landowner I was passing up yotes he told me if I wanted to hunt his property not to pass up any yotes and if he found out I was then I was done hunting there.

Don't blame you in this unique scenario. Most would do what it takes in an attempt to satisfy the landowner so he/she could keep hunting the land.

 

[Snake]

I used to pass up yotes thinking same thing but when I mentioned to the landowner I was passing up yotes he told me if I wanted to hunt his property not to pass up any yotes and if he found out I was then I was done hunting there.

Don't blame you in this unique scenario. Most would do what it takes in an attempt to satisfy the landowner so he/she could keep hunting the land.

If a hunter has permission to hunt private property and landowner has certain requests these requests should be met when the opportunity arises because such hunter has agreeed to hunt under these requests . Weather or not you lease property or just have permission a landowner's request should be the first order of agreement and that is my first response to said landowner . I like to know first-hand what is expected of me and if I can't or won't for whatever reason agree to these terms I walk away gracefully from the agreement . I have seen too many hunters upset landowners from this very thing and when they do this it's makes it hard for other respectful hunters . I know this is a little off from the OP but some think just because they pay a fee for leasing property they can do what they want and it leaves a bad taste in landowner's mouth to lease to others. When I first started hunting in middle Tennessee you wouldn't believe of all the disrespectful things I've heard of hunters doing . Please adhere to owners request and then you have a win-win agreement . If they want you to shoot the coyotes then by all means shoot them heck drive by his home and show them to him , weather it be yotes or does make a stance to their requests . Sorry for this rant but landowner requests should be at the top of a hunters list .

 

[Headhunter]

One farm I got to hunt til it sold, I shot 2 coyotes and a doe with a muzzleloader, thompson center percussion my first day hunting. Landowner said if I hadn't killed the doe I would not have been allowed to hunt anymore and to never shoot another coyote because he wanted them to kill the deer and this farmer raised and sold cattle.