Doe to Fawn Ratio

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Mike Belt

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Lakeland, Tn.
In case no one reads another posting let me run this by those in the know. If all things basically remain the same and there is no food shortage these are the stats for the last 3 years.
2013... 1:3.48
2014... 1:3.14
2015... 1:4.75
I don't have the average weights and ages over those years of does killed. I do know the observations of does during those years was 4293 in 2013, 3702 in 2014, and 3563 in 2015. Fawns sighted in those years were 1234, 1117, and 750. I also don't know what figures represent good or bad fawn survival rates but that sounds low to me. What say you...?
 
Looks good if your goal is to keep the deer herd in check and save a few acres of beans, but looks like chit if you want to enjoy your hunt and actually see a few deer from your stand. I'm speaking from firsthand experience, just as you do Mike.

I am not sure how much stock I put into "observed" doe to fawn ratios on a heavily pressured deer herd, such as the one this data was extracted from. I would expect those numbers to not be representative of what truly exists, mainly due to very few does moving in daylight, and most likely a good deal of the fawns showing their face multiple times in daylight, often seen by numerous hunters in the same day. In short, I do not believe there were that many fawns to does last year. My observation data and more importantly, my four cameras suggest just the opposite, a very poor year (2015) as far as fawn recruitment goes.
 
Population management is all about doe and fawn numbers on trail camera census, and doe ages/ weights/ lactation percentage on does older than 2.5 on does killed during the season. Observation data makes for more enjoyable hunts, but are NOT an accurate indicator of what is actually out there.

In a perfect world, doe:fawn recruitment would run around 80% (doe fawns from the prior year will not likely have fawns in tow this year). One can assume ALL does are fertilized (there may be the very, very rare exception of a barren doe that does not reproduce, but they are in the VAST minority). Not all fertilized adult does will produce a fawn or two (extreme stresses can definitely cause does (and other mammals) to abort mid-gestation), but losses prior to birth are not common. So why would properties have fawn recruitment rates less than 80%?... Predators, predators, predators. Fawns have become one of the primary spring/ early summer food sources for coyotes since their population explosion in the late '80's. When I first started running trail cameras, I would routinely have between 60-80% fawn recruitment ratios. I also struggled with state doe limits to kill enough does annually to keep the population in check... with a reasonably populated herd, it is almost impossible to kill enough does when every adult doe has a fawn or two in tow. However, over the next few years, the fawn recruitment rates on my farms declined gradually to around 20-25% (where it has been over the last 4 or 5 years). And this was despite a significant improvement in carrying capacity through reduced cattle grazing, increased summer/ winter crops, and increased forage opportunities on all the neighboring properties. Deer weights increased (an indirect indicator of herd health), but fawn recruitment continued to decline. The only thing I can figure out was that we were losing the majority of our fawn crop shortly after drop, but prior to camera census. Observationally, we started seeing and killing more coyotes during hunting season (I've personally shot an average of 5 over the past 3 years just deer hunting, not actually targeting them). And most importantly, I've also had to completely restrict doe harvest altogether to adults (I still allow children to shoot 1 doe each). If and when we can improve our fawn recruitment rates, I will liberally increase doe harvests. But not until then.

Lactation rates are also vital... Again, assuming 80% fawn recruitment, one would assume nearly 100% of does aged 2.5 or older would be wet during fall hunting seasons. Keeping track of lactation rates just confirms what you already know based on trail camera census... Just another way to confirm.

Doe weights are also important. Increasing doe weights over time are a general indicator of overall improvement in herd health (assuming age data is not increasing as well). Conversely, declining weights certainly make one suspect a decline in herd health (again, assuming age data is not decreasing).

Doe age is also important to track... a sign of overharvest of the female segment of the population may manifest itself as an overall age average of less than 3.5 years. Conversely, an indirect measure of underharvesting does may be an average doe age of those killed being older than 3.5.

We as hunters want to manage our lands to maximize the carrying capacity... more deer= more deer available for us to kill. But unfortunately, for many others, the carrying capacity of the land far exceeds what they are willing to tolerate... hence the 'social carrying capacity'. This is what you are facing on Ames... the deer hunting income is secondary to the owners primary source of income- crop production. What the biologists at Ames are missing is the fact that annual doe harvests should not be a static number... they must be adjusted annually based on crop damage, trail camera census, age data of does, lactation rates of does, etc.
 
Good post, Megalomanic.

megalomaniac":hteh63uv said:
We as hunters want to manage our lands to maximize the carrying capacity... more deer= more deer available for us to kill. But unfortunately, for many others, the carrying capacity of the land far exceeds what they are willing to tolerate... hence the 'social carrying capacity'. This is what you are facing on Ames... the deer hunting income is secondary to the owners primary source of income- crop production.
Actually, if you go bird hunting at Ames, you might think their primary source of income is coming from bird hunters! :tu:
 
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Like stated above Hunter observation is far from the most accurate data but if the data Mike posted is even close to accurate, a definite decline is taking place??
 
Unfortunately all I have to go on is hunter observations which I agree don't necessarily equate to accurate, actual stats and I think they reflect higher than actual numbers. Still, over this 3 year period we've had about a 17% drop in doe sightings and a 40% drop in fawn sightings. This year has a good start on dropping those numbers again.
 
Good post Mega.

Determined via camera census, we average 1.3 to 1.5 fawns per doe. The challenge when we initiated our management plan was simply too many adult does, as family groups numbered 8-10 does and fawns (I recall one photo during a census that had 13). Keep in mind we were also increasing carrying capacity via habitat improvement projects on a pretty large scale. BSK and I even maintained a dialogue on my concern of a "doe sink" as deer from surrounding properties migrated to the more desirable habitat being created. The 1st year we eased into the plan but by the 2nd census year it was clear the herd was replacing more mouths than we were removing so we increased doe harvest. The outcome was dramatic...to a point I thought we'd overharvested during the following summer census.

Consider this real example and how hunter-observed sightings might be impacted. One census revealed not one but 2 does that had triplets; don't know if any were orphans or not but there were clearly 2 different groups totaling 8 deer. If we had removed those 2 does during the last few days of the previous antlerless-only season...and their 6 unborn fawns the observed impact would be starkly clear. As well, removing the planned 9 additional does as we had the year before (we killed 11 total that year), even at the 1.5 fawns per doe average, that would total 21.5 deer we hunters didn't see AND (this is key) would drop no fawns the following summer. 3 years of pounding does and we finally starting seeing smaller doe groups of 3-5 which indicated to me a shrinking localized herd...fewer total mouths. It became clear that year-over-year it's the cumulative effect of 1)removing does, 2)removing the future fawns they drop, and 3)removing the future fawns those fawns drop and it doesn't take long to observe the reduction both in camera surveys and while hunting...and that's before predation and disease Only took us 4 years to see it so if Ames is killing does at or above this rate + you guys are are in the 3rd, 4th, 5th year may be the same type scenario?

At the same time the buck:doe ratio was steadily improving (we only killed four 4.5+ year old bucks in that time). Now we typically only need to shoot 6-8 does per year vs. 10-12, still have a super hunting experience, and our chance for a 4.5+ buck has improved to a point we are considering going to 5.5+ year old minimum...except that they're so darn smart and hard to see much less kill!
 
I agree that hunter observation isn't a good indicator of the literal total deer population, but it should be a good indicator of changes (increases or decreases) in the population assuming hunting pressure remains the same. I'm assuming AMES has hunted does all the years that these Doe vs. Fawn ratios were given for and even several years before that? If so, then hunting pressure would have remained equal for all these years (2013 to 2015) so that you don't have does becoming more wary and skewing your number of hunter observations. If that is so, then I'd interpret these ever decreasing sightings of does and fawns to mean that the actual deer population was decreasing.
 
On my farm I get a group of 8 does on cam at the same time usually. There is only 1 fawn with all of them. Coyotes and bobcats on cam all the time. Seems like I have more predators than deer.
 
Mike Belt":3p8kjh4j said:
I do know the observations of does during those years was 4293 in 2013, 3702 in 2014, and 3563 in 2015. Fawns sighted in those years were 1234, 1117, and 750.
To make sure you are comparing apples to apples, you would have to have the total cumulative hours hunted for those three years as well. The perceived reduction could be attributed to a reduction in hours afield, although I highly doubt that with the membership steadily increasing to the 95-100 members that we have today, and my firsthand experiences in the woods.
 
There are several missing components; some I doubt I could gather. I also doubt hunter hours are fluctuating enough to skew those numbers.
 
mega - I do not have access to that data over the last 12 years, but I "think" Dr. Harper presented it at this year's annual supper in September, of which I was not present to see and hear. If my memory serves me right, other members told me that the data showed our average ages have remained pretty constant over the course of the last 12 years. I requested a digital copy of his presentation but was told no due to some or all of it possibly being published at a later date. I wish I had the raw data in a MS Access database so I could answer this question.
 
megalomaniac":1rvzctqv said:
Doe age is also important to track... a sign of overharvest of the female segment of the population may manifest itself as an overall age average of less than 3.5 years. Conversely, an indirect measure of underharvesting does may be an average doe age of those killed being older than 3.5.
I went back and re-read your post...somehow I missed this until the last few comments cased me to go back and review and this absolutely makes intuitive sense. Fascinating topic.

From initiation of our management plan, we always targeted the oldest, lop-eared, long-headed nannies with the primary reason being they likely had the greatest reproductive capability and best mothering skills. Keeping in mind we needed fewer deer not more and the goal to reduce the overall population + improve buck:doe ratio, it made more sense to remove a twin or triplet producing 4.5 year old doe than a 1.5 year old doe that was perhaps more likely to only drop a single fawn. This is still our practice, and I think that's a big reason why fawn recruitment stabilized and overall population is more manageable.

If Ames has reached a point where they have removed many of the most prolific fawn producers + those with the greatest likelihood of raising multiple young then yes, it could also be a contributing factor to the reduced fawn recruitment rate. If overall doe age structure has declined then yes, a herd of generally younger does tend to drop (and successfully raise) fewer fawns.
 
At Ames when we check deer in they're scored, aged, and weighed. At the end of the season each member gets a summary of what was killed but only the scores, weights and ages of the buck segment are provided. In our 2013 summary the average weight of the does over the previous 5 years was included but it's of no help. If you don't have yearly weights and ages for comparison year to year then you really don't have anything to go by. As said, they do record the ages and weights and I'm trying to see if I can lay my hands on that information.
 
Boll Weevil":2ma4a5ky said:
Only took us 4 years to see it so if Ames is killing does at or above this rate + you guys are are in the 3rd, 4th, 5th year may be the same type scenario?
Ames membership has consistently killed 175-235 does for the last twelve years, with several years in the 205-225 range. To say the "fun" in hunting and daytime deer sightings has all but left the woods would be an understatement. My trail cams rarely pic up a group of 3+ does, and even rarer does that group move in daylight. I would bet my retirement that the deer herd density is the lowest since 2004, and the few that are left, are scared to death to move during daylight. It takes cold weather, the rut and forced movement (all members afield) to even think about having an enjoyable experience these days. I am not complaining, just calling as I see it, and I live it and breathe it day and night.
 
Obviously my farm isn't nearly the size of Ames but it actually might make a pretty good representative comparison on a smaller scale...though still a large enough tract to actually manage. Same county, working agricultural operation, mix of hardwood + pine etc. Based on 175-235 does killed and assuming Ames is about 18,000 acres that works out to a range of 1 doe per 102 acres on the low end, and 1 doe per 77 acres on the high end. Ours works out to 1 doe per 99 acres on the low end, and 1 doe per 59 acres on the high end so that's in the same ballpark.

As I mentioned before, we saw the impact in just 4 years (both camera census and hunter observed) so if you are 12 years into removing does at this clip? It's just hard to believe does have been targeted to a point they + fawns have gotten smart enough to completely elude hunters and cameras. Also seems unlikely your hunters' skills have diminished to a point they have this difficult a time continuing to see/kill does. Just my opinion and thinking through the "representative comparison" above, you gents aren't seeing does/fawns because they're not there (at least like they were in the past).
 
Boll Weevil":gh5crr4t said:
It's just hard to believe does have been targeted to a point they + fawns have gotten smart enough to completely elude hunters and cameras. Also seems unlikely your hunters' skills have diminished to a point they have this difficult a time continuing to see/kill does. Just my opinion and thinking through the "representative comparison" above, you gents aren't seeing does/fawns because they're not there (at least like they were in the past).
I agree 100%.
 
I also agree completely. To compound those numbers you also have to remember that Ames is roughly 18,600 acres total. We don't get to hunt all of it. We have huge grownup areas, pine plantings and cutovers, swamplands, and safety zones we simply can't and don't hunt.

Andy do you have any idea on how many acres could be deducted from that 18,600?
 
Mike Belt":37f0tpd6 said:
We have huge grownup areas, pine plantings and cutovers, swamplands, and safety zones we simply can't and don't hunt.
Which in turn become vast "safety zones" or "sanctuaries" where many if not most your deer spend their time, especially during daylight. To complicate it further, some of these areas (such as cutovers and swamplands) contain a tremendous food supply, meaning those deer may never have need to forage for food outside those areas.

Deer will gravitate to those areas where they are disturbed least, and tend to stay there if all their needs are met there.

These kind situations can make for some very tough hunting.
 
LBL.. You're preaching to the choir here, lol.

OK, huntable acres equate to roughly 12-13,000 acres. So rather than killing 200 does per season off of 18,600 acres equating to 1 doe per 98 acres it now equates to 1 doe per 65 acres off of 13,000 acres.
 

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