I have been a trophy hunter for sometime but never had an area where people let deer walk. I am on 2 leases and a couple years back one of my leases started to swing this way. When someone got out of lease we just payed more. Now we have it to 5 members and all only shoot big bucks or does with a bow and last year we killed some good deer. This year we have done several things to improve the place. I truly had forgotten how good it was to hunt somewhere that you really have a chance at a giant at any moment. Im really getting really fired up for the first time in several years.
Different Feeling this Year
- Thread starter muddyboots
- Start date
BSK
Well-Known Member
Without question, knowing "good" bucks are in the woods adds dramatically to the excitement of the hunt.
In fact, that's one of the benefits of trail-cameras, for me. Knowing older bucks are using the property adds to the excitement, even on those days your really struggling to get yourself out there.
In fact, that's one of the benefits of trail-cameras, for me. Knowing older bucks are using the property adds to the excitement, even on those days your really struggling to get yourself out there.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I truly understand that feeling.muddyboots said:
What's amazing is that those hunters who don't want to pass up any bucks are typically the first ones to shoot or aggressively pursue ANY buck ANY larger than ANYTHING they've ever killed. While there are a few "meat" hunters (who will simply shoot the first deer that presents), when a buck and a doe are standing side-by-side, most meat hunters will shoot the buck, or if two bucks side-by-side, the larger buck. Why? Because everyone loves antlers.
Some people collect baseball cards. We collect antlers. :)
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
After having some more exciting places to hunt (which sounds like YOU created with the help of some like-minded folks), it can then become so unappealing to deer hunt in a place with less excitement that you might instead choose to just go fishing or hunt something other than deer. Which is a situation I don't necessarily see as a problem, and don't mean to come across as complaining (much), since I do enjoy lots of other things besides deer hunting.
I just enjoy deer hunting (more than most anything else) when I know there are decent opportunities for large antlered mature bucks.
And we do have the "formula" for creating more excitement, mainly just becomes an issue of getting enough fellow hunters to start passing up those younger bucks, especially those younger bucks with the above-average antlers for their young age (1 1/2 to 3 1/2).
Of course, there is both a "learning" curve and the progression of accomplishment on which we build. We would generally not expect nor want a young or novice hunter to qualify his personal "shooter" bucks by the same standards someone who has taken many might use.
Over in the Trail Cams & Pics Forum, Mr. CAW started an interesting thread entitled "One More Year? Or Take Him Now?"
http://www.tndeer.com/tndeertalk/ubbthr ... w=1#UNREAD
Last time I checked it, this post kinda summed up my thoughts as well:
I just enjoy deer hunting (more than most anything else) when I know there are decent opportunities for large antlered mature bucks.
And we do have the "formula" for creating more excitement, mainly just becomes an issue of getting enough fellow hunters to start passing up those younger bucks, especially those younger bucks with the above-average antlers for their young age (1 1/2 to 3 1/2).
Of course, there is both a "learning" curve and the progression of accomplishment on which we build. We would generally not expect nor want a young or novice hunter to qualify his personal "shooter" bucks by the same standards someone who has taken many might use.
Over in the Trail Cams & Pics Forum, Mr. CAW started an interesting thread entitled "One More Year? Or Take Him Now?"
http://www.tndeer.com/tndeertalk/ubbthr ... w=1#UNREAD
Last time I checked it, this post kinda summed up my thoughts as well:
I thought it was a very enlightening thread.CAW said:
Yes Wes it's not that exciting to hunt my other lease. The guys on that lease ask me why don't u deer hunt up here. I say you wouldn't understand it. Lol.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I say, "Let's try to help them." :)muddyboots said:
Education as to the benefits is the key, while regulations can play a very important important role, right along with "role model" hunters who practice what they preach, their peers actually seeing the benefits of more biologically sound deer management and "trigger finger" restraint.
And not just "trigger finger" restraint on young bucks, but maybe more importantly, the best-antlered young bucks, which become the largest-antlered of older bucks. I've found that the more one "gives a pass" to an above average 2 1/2, the more one sees more above average 3 1/2 & older bucks, even though the ones seen are often different from the ones passed.
The vast majority of hunters find large-antlered older bucks very exciting, and most are more than willing to make carburetor adjustments when they believe they're worth making. Few will make such adjustments if they believe the guy down the ridge is just going to kill that "nice" buck they just passed up. But with more hunters getting on the same page, the quality of the hunting improves for everyone.
For those who have never passed up a buck, start small. Then have the mindset you'll enjoy passing up more and larger antlered ones over time. IMO, this "passing up" nice bucks is one of the big enjoyments of bow hunting to a large segment of bowhunters, simply because the range limitation of their bow forces that "passing" of a buck they would instantly kill with a gun in hand. Just change your mindset to it's more about the deer hunting than the weapon, and have the same "shooter" buck standards regardless. To me, there's no such thing as a "good bow buck", as it's either one I'd take or it's not.
The initial base standard defining a "shooter" buck for me is pretty simple:
It's more AGE based than antler based. For most areas I hunt, I simply do not want to take any bucks younger than 4 1/2, and prefer to take them older (5 1/2 or older). I honestly couldn't care less whether a buck has "9 or more points" and think all "point" antler restrictions are counter-productive to the perceived benefits. I like to see large racks, finding a massive mature 6-pointer the better "trophy" over a more average sized 9-point 3 1/2 or younger (which could grow into a massive mature 9-point-plus monster if allowed to walk when younger).
That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes and don't have exceptions, but generally speaking, this is what it is, and I'm usually specifically targeting a particular fully mature buck, which I don't get, but enjoy the challenge, commonly including my taking a different 4 1/2 or older buck in the process of pursuing a particular one.
My mindset has changed over time to where I can honestly say I enjoy the hunt, the challenge, more than the killing, although a periodic kill is part of fulfilling the challenge. It doesn't have to be every year, and I honestly am no longer bothered by a year in which I go "buckless", even if other people kill most of those bucks I chose to pass.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I'm also an avid "meat" hunter, just prefer to fill the freezer with doe meat, which falls right in place with biologically balanced deer harvests (killing about the same number of female as male deer, actually usually need to take more females).
Like most humans, I am a carnivore, and for me to eat meat, an animal has to die. The less I buy in a grocery store or restaurant, the better. I know where my meat comes from, and it's mostly free-range organic, with my having the satisfaction of choosing mostly nice fat doe venison replacing the store-bought beef most city-dwelling non-hunters are eating. And wild turkey has replaced much of the store-bought chicken I used to consume. As a hunter, the animals I eat enjoyed a normal life in the wild, unlike most raised in a cage, slaughtered, and placed in a grocery store or on a restaurant menu.
Since so many hunters are currently killing mainly bucks (most hunters are in fact "trophy" hunters, with a trophy buck being defined as any buck), I'm typically killing at least a couple female deer for each male deer, which (in terms of the deer herd management) helps off-set those hunters who aren't killing as many female deer. This "works for me" and I'm also feeling really good about the upcoming deer season. :)
Like most humans, I am a carnivore, and for me to eat meat, an animal has to die. The less I buy in a grocery store or restaurant, the better. I know where my meat comes from, and it's mostly free-range organic, with my having the satisfaction of choosing mostly nice fat doe venison replacing the store-bought beef most city-dwelling non-hunters are eating. And wild turkey has replaced much of the store-bought chicken I used to consume. As a hunter, the animals I eat enjoyed a normal life in the wild, unlike most raised in a cage, slaughtered, and placed in a grocery store or on a restaurant menu.
Since so many hunters are currently killing mainly bucks (most hunters are in fact "trophy" hunters, with a trophy buck being defined as any buck), I'm typically killing at least a couple female deer for each male deer, which (in terms of the deer herd management) helps off-set those hunters who aren't killing as many female deer. This "works for me" and I'm also feeling really good about the upcoming deer season. :)
Tennessee Lead
Well-Known Member
Well said Wes
Wes i have tried with my other lease for years. Cant do it with the members we have. I actually showed one member a nice buck i did kill up there years a go and he said "Theres no way you killed that deer on this lease." LOL The bad part about it is that lease is 900 acres that borders about 10000 that doesnt allow any hunting. That place could be magical. My efforts have been turned to my other lease. I spent all day moving my food plot equipment today from the 900 acre lease to the other. The 900 acre lease will be for turkey hunting which it full of those. Ha Ha.
CAW
Well-Known Member
Wes Parrish said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one! :)
Great posts Wes. You and I think a lot alike.
barkscraper
Well-Known Member
Well said Wess i don't post a lot for i feel like there is not many that thinks the way i do but i see there are a few. I have let some nice bucks walk just hoping they make it till the next year knowing what a year can do even though i hunt public land . Everyone has heard if you don't shoot it the person around the ridge will . Well i can only be responsible for me and the way i hunt so whatever floats their boat. I enjoy the scouting and the hunting more than the kill and i do love the meat.
muddyboots said:
I'm sure that you will do well with new approach. Amazing what a group of like minded folks and trigger restraint can do to improve the herd.
tellico4x4 said:
Funny part is the club that wont do it is near yawls lease. I have showed pics from your club countless times and they seem to not believe me. They say oh the have better land than we do. I say nope the have the same pine trees and briars we do just take care of it a whole lot better. LOL
I've tried trail cams, but don't care to fool with them much. I'm afraid that checking them might cause me to spook a good buck, and I kind of like the anticipation of not knowing before hand. I've killed a good buck, and saw several others that the guys on adjoining properties never got a pic of. I believe many properties have good bucks, but never get their pic taken.
8 POINTS OR BETTER
Well-Known Member
muddyboots said:
It's because you have good neighbors across the road. Lol
8 POINTS OR BETTER said:
That does help!
benellivol
Well-Known Member
BSK said:
It makes it a lot easier to get out of bed, that's for sure
BSK
Well-Known Member
benellivol said:
And every now and then, it really pays off. Last year, after already having killed a decent 3 1/2 year-old buck, my motivation to continue hunting was dwindling. However, getting almost nightly pictures of the below buck kept me motivated enough to keep at it. Although killing a 5 1/2+ year-old buck on my place is virtually impossible (bucks of that age are always completely nocturnal), knowing he was there was a motivation.
And proof that a blind hog really can find a nut now and then:
Winchester
Well-Known Member
Very nice BSK!
I'm more excited this year than I have been in years. Stands are hung. No intrusion til I walk in and hunt. All 5 of us have decided to do that.
Mike Belt
Well-Known Member
The journey can be more rewarding than the actual destination.
I love watching deer and by passing on most I see, I get to witness much of their behavior and interaction. By doing this I not only learn more about the whitetail but also allow the bucks more time through the years to reach their potential. When those having done so and I cross paths the game is on. They don't get that way by dropping them as youngsters.
I love watching deer and by passing on most I see, I get to witness much of their behavior and interaction. By doing this I not only learn more about the whitetail but also allow the bucks more time through the years to reach their potential. When those having done so and I cross paths the game is on. They don't get that way by dropping them as youngsters.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
So true with many things, not just deer hunting.Mike Belt said:
We can typically enjoy both more and better quality hunting when we "pace" our harvests.
Hunter 257W
Well-Known Member
However, if the passing on most younger bucks isn't rewarded with a noticeable improvement in older buck numbers eventually, the journey can get less pleasant. I've done my part for 12 hunting seasons by shooting only 7 bucks total in those 12 seasons and have only seen or even filmed 1 buck old enough to have a swollen neck in that entire 12 years. How long do you have to restrain your trigger finger before it pays off?? :)
I'm leaning more and more towards just lowering the boom on whatever walks by as I can't see that it will make much difference.
I'm leaning more and more towards just lowering the boom on whatever walks by as I can't see that it will make much difference.
Hunter 257W said:
I had to change areas. If you are in the minority on passing bucks where you hunt it wont make much difference.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Hunter 257W,
If I had tried management for 4 or 5 years in one location and produced no results, I would just have accept that I need to hunt/manage somewhere else.
If I had tried management for 4 or 5 years in one location and produced no results, I would just have accept that I need to hunt/manage somewhere else.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
On one hand, true, on the other, can make a huge difference.muddyboots said:
Let me explain.
If there is high hunting pressure and most hunters are shooting "any" buck, you are correct in that it may not make much difference in creating improvement in future buck age structure. (Albeit, whatever you do better has to help at least a little, an all changes begin with a leader leading the way.)
What you may be missing has more to do with your "at the moment" opportunity to take whatever are the best bucks available. Generally speaking, the older bucks are going to follow younger bucks with their movement patterns. A high percentage of older bucks I've harvested would never have been seen had I not passed up the younger (or less old) buck that came by a few minutes before.
And, (this passing of younger bucks) is the main hunting tactic for any of us who regularly take exceptional bucks, even on heavily hunted public land. Think about it. If you're the only one doing it, it can be a great odds improver for you personally, as you will be the hunter to most regularly take the best bucks on that area.
No need to go "deerless", but should going "buckless" one of two years be a big blow to one's ego? If there were little challenge to the hunting, we'd just call it going shooting?
For me, it's much an issue about realistic expectations and what is focused on as equating to a successful, quality hunting experience. Regarding the TN hunting club that I've spent the most time hunting over the past 11 deer seasons, I've taken only 3 bucks in 11 years (although I have averaged a little better than 1 buck annually by hunting other places/states). And I'm very happy with that, despite having only taken a buck there about every 3 to 4 years.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Just don't overlook that some "management" tactics are also great "hunting" tactics even when their use for "management" might be futile.BSK said:
landman
Well-Known Member
dr said:
dr I make a point to run cams hard before and after season, first few weeks of Sept., and then end of Jan
during the season I run a few a spots and those are in areas that I can drive a truck up to during the middle of the day,
I never cut the truck off, helps cover sound.. running in Sept I know whats going to be there on the land, then others will still show up
BSK
Well-Known Member
True Wes, unless there truly are no older bucks in the area. You can't kill what doesn't exist. Hunter 257W posted he has not been able to photograph any older bucks in the area. This suggests they don't exist.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Obviously, they probably don't exist in high numbers there, and they never will so long as no one leads the change to protect more younger bucks. But hard to believe zero "older" bucks exist within the rut range of most hunting locations in TN.BSK said:
As a HUNTING strategy, the hunters with the higher "shooter buck" standards will kill a much larger percentage of the better bucks in any area, whether older or just larger antlered. While no individual hunter may make a huge management impact on the area's buck age structure, he CAN make a big impact on his personal odds of connecting with whatever is the best buck(s) in his area.
The rut becomes the "wild card" that can put an older buck most anywhere. Those hunters who are eager to take "any" buck will be the ones least likely to kill an older buck, regardless of their numbers.
I don't mean to come across as being unsympathetic to Hunter 257's situation, as I have "been there" during much of my hunting past. Part of my solution was to change the people around me. You can either change the people around you, or you can change the people around you. (This may or may not include relocating to a different hunting area.)
