didnt know honeysuckle was controversial.....

[Football Hunter]

Starting e rooting project with some.Whats the big deal?Its everywhere and deer like it.Whats not to like?

 

[TheLBLman]

Whats the big deal? Whats not to like?

It can compete with young tree seedlings.
If you're trying to grow trees, you may look at honeysuckle much like a farmer looks at Johnson grass in his soybeans.

 

[BSK]

And it's a non-native invasive plant. It can take over and push out native plants.

That said, I promote it were it already exists. Contrary to what some say, it is a HIGHLY preferred winter food source.

 

[Setterman]

Prime food source for late season, and provides good cover as well. I don't know that I would go so far as to plant it, but I do not kill it on my property. Usually it does a pretty good job of spreading itself. Kudzu is another one that is a pain in the arse, but offers super high protein levels during the summer when it is not dormant.

 

[Tree Tramp]

I was under the impression that it was beneficial for deer and it provides a good nesting site for some bird species. I have transplanted some myself. Having said that, i have alot of respect for some opinions on here and i wont be transplanting or encouraging it anymore.

FB you crack me up. Thats a serious operation!
pic

 

[8 POINTS OR BETTER]

LOL FBH we must think a like. Let me know how yours turn out. Here is a picture of some of mine.

 

[RKenney]

The deer must not know that it is "controversial". Also, I have
never seen honeysuckle take over a whole property that had
several acres to it. Most of the patches that I have ever seen
are not over 4 or 5 acres at the most. I would say the average
would be 1 or 2 acres.

I am sure it is different in different places, so I am just
speaking of what I have seen on different properties in mid Tn.
over the years.

 

[Football Hunter]

Whats the big deal? Whats not to like?

It can compete with young tree seedlings.
If you're trying to grow trees, you may look at honeysuckle much like a farmer looks at Johnson grass in his soybeans.

plan on planting my cuttings in the brush piles left from my food plot clearing,seems like a winner to me.Not any near my young trees

 

[Football Hunter]

Prime food source for late season, and provides good cover as well. I don't know that I would go so far as to plant it, but I do not kill it on my property. Usually it does a pretty good job of spreading itself. Kudzu is another one that is a pain in the arse, but offers super high protein levels during the summer when it is not dormant.

Wht not plant it,if its good,its good,got some muscadines vines I ordered coming too.

 

[Football Hunter]

Will let you know how it goes 8 pts

 

[Quailman]

Wht not plant it,if its good,its good

Its good in what context? Will your deer starve without it? Are they any less-healthy without it?

Just some questions to think about...

 

[Football Hunter]

Wht not plant it,if its good,its good

Its good in what context? Will your deer starve without it? Are they any less-healthy without it?

Just some questions to think about...

No,they wont starve,but they wont starve w/o my food plots either.Im not trying to be a smart a$$ Quailman,just trying to make myplace as appealing to deer as possible.What would be a good winter alternative?

 

[richmanbarbeque]

I am going to take a stab here. What I think is happening with landowners like myself is a question of what can we do to provide a late season food source besides food plots? What can we do? I know this is a question that I have, hopefully I am not hi-jacking this thread.

 

[Quailman]

Football Hunter, I wasn't being critical, so I apologize if it sounded that way. Computers aren't very good at expressing words.

What I want you to think about is "Why am I making these management decisions? Are they beneficial? If so, why? Are they scientifically based (did I read it in a hunting magazine or did I read it in a publication produced by actual wildlife researchers/biologists?) And on and on...

It is my job to educate landowners because that is what I do on a daily basis. My comments/recommendations are based on trial and error, personal observations while working on wildlife projects, and actual scientific research that's been conducted. I am not a research biologist (I'm a private lands biologist, along with other responsibilities)), so I rely on others in that discipline to conduct valid research that I can then apply when working with landowners.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think that it's great that you are actively managing your property. However, are you managing it in the best possible way, with the resources that you have available? I can honestly tell you that not everything you read on the internet is necessarily the best advice. It's up to you to decide by making informed decisions. Besides, I'll try to help as best as I can. I don't know everything (far from it!), but I can find the answer to just about everything you might ask.

 

[Football Hunter]

Am I managing ther best way possible,I doubt it,money is one concern.I am meetng a logger sunday morning to look at harvesting about 15 acres of poplars,maples and cherries,maybe a few hickories.NO OAKS on this end.So I got to thinking,what can I do,Ive waited my whole life,well 41 years,and finally got a place to hunt,shoot fireworks,or drive my 4 wheeler around in circles if I want.

But what I reaLLY want is a place with a bunch of deer,and some nice bucks.So I am doing what I can.I have planted 26 trees on the place so far.Sawtooths,pears,apples,and 4 Ch Chestnuts,whew $$$$$ for them.

Any way,I figured that HS would be good in my clearing piles from the original clearing for food plots.Doubt it will run to far.I think the deer there will keep it cut back pretty good.

Anyway,me and richmanbbq asked what would be a good food source for winter for the deer besides food plots and HS.Like you say,computers can make you sound smart a$$ when your not.

Also,trying to figure out what Im gonna do with some big sweet gums,that Im sure the logger is not gonna want.I sure dont want 15 acres of sweetgum saplings.

 

[Quailman]

Sounds like you already have some good ideas.

money is one concern.

We have programs to help with costs, if you have practices that might be eligible (75-90% cost share).

I am meetng a logger sunday morning to look at harvesting about 15 acres of poplars,maples and cherries,maybe a few hickories.NO OAKS on this end.

Definitely agree with that idea. Take out the undesirable species, and promote what's beneficial for wildlife. The good thing is that poplar, cherry, and hickory have some value from a timber standpoint.

But what I reaLLY want is a place with a bunch of deer,and some nice bucks.So I am doing what I can.I have planted 26 trees on the place so far.Sawtooths,pears,apples,and 4 Ch Chestnuts,whew $$$$$ for them.

If you've spent some money on trees, then it is definitely worth it to spend a little more on tree protectors (if you haven't already).

Managing for deer is simple, but managing for quality deer is a little more involved as I'm sure you know. Focus on providing ample cover first, then focus on food availability. I'm tied up as an instructor for a training course this week for new employees, but give me a couple of days and we can discuss some more ways to acheive your goals. Of course, I'm only a phone call a way if you want me to pay you a visit. Perry Co.?

 

[Football Hunter]

Yes Perry county,in fact me and richmanbbq are about 30 minutes apart,could probably see us both on one day.Maybe we could both learn things on each others propery.We have already discussed this amongst ourselves.BTW,ricmmanbbq loves buying breakfast at the LOg Cabin restaurant!

 

[BSK]

Wht not plant it,if its good,its good

Are they any less-healthy without it?

In primarily hardwood habitat, you bet they are!

 

[deerchaser007]

I done the same thing FH. Transplanted some honeysuckle in the piles around my plots and in the clearings. A year later,... i realized i wasted my time. Mother nature provided plenty of it on her own. AND,.. i mean plenty of it too. Other than honeysuckle,.. for winter, focus on greenbrier. I'm turning my focus this year on greenbrier. In the openings from my log 5 years ago,.. the greenbrier is starting to climb onto the trees to a height that is out of deer browsing comfort. I'm gonna knock it down by cutting some of the trees,.. and cut up some more opening were it is growing well,.. and the trees have no timber or wildlife value.
I'm no expert,.. i'm just like you guys,.. got my little 85 acres of paradise and want to do what i can to make my hunting property the best it can be,. year round!! I do it all on my own,.. with what money and time i have to put in. BUT,.. wish i would have got with the forestry service or quailman and seen if i could have got some assistance and made it better. If a small property owner is gonna do it themselves,.. my only advice is get the book Forest plants of the southest and their wildlife uses. This book has been my bible for identifying what i need , and what i have , and what i don't need. Using this book is how i identfied my lack of quality summer browse. AND,.. i feel it lacks so much it is hurting my management plan on my place. Winter browse is important,.. but not to the point it smothers out quality summer browse. The more i understand now, that i didn't know then, is the importance of summer browse. IMO,.. quality summer browse is more important than an abundance of winter browse. For 1 reason,.. bucks are pushed out of the best habitat in summer and the does use it for fawning. SO,.. if i would have focused more on some serious sumer browse spread across my whole place,.. i could have increased the habitat for the entire herd,.. not just does coming in for fawning and my older bucks being pushed to my poorer browse areas. Even though i'm in the hillcountry,. i know now i could have done a better job.
Think about the whole picture when it comes to habitat management,.. especially before its to late.

 

[BSK]

I am meetng a logger sunday morning to look at harvesting about 15 acres of poplars,maples and cherries,maybe a few hickories.NO OAKS on this end.So I got to thinking,what can I do...

You're doing it with that logging operation Football Hunter. Once trees are removed and sunlight starts to hit the ground, Nature will take her course and produce natural foods for wildlife. The wildlife will pick and choose what they want. But honeysuckle and greenbrier will probably be two of the plants that sprout on their own (I've yet to see an area of Perry County that honeysuckle won't sprout if given the chance--a lot of bird transport of seed). Although neither plant rank high in nutrient content, they are two of the most preferred winter foods. Of course, few plants are high in nutrition during winter (other than agricultural crops and acorns).

 

[Quailman]

Wht not plant it,if its good,its good

Are they any less-healthy without it?

In primarily hardwood habitat, you bet they are!

Please show me the research that supports that statement. And besides, honeysuckle won't grow well in a landscape that is primarily hardwoods because it's a closed canopy system. Honeysuckle requires adequate sunlight to grow well.

The bottom line is that I know that deer utilize honeysuckle in the winter if it's all that is available. However, state and federal wildlife agencies spends millions of dollars a year trying to control and eradicate invasive species, so there's no way I'm going to promote a plant that is low quality and that displaces native species.

Remove the honeysuckle from your forested landscape and tell me how many deer you find dead from starvation.

 

[Football Hunter]

OK,since I started this mess,I always here or read,HS or green briar,thats the predominate winter food sources in winter.

Hate to admit it but Im no sure what green briar is.I assume its the heavy,almost rose bush looking briars,and I throw a cople of hand fulls of fertilizer around whatever I can find,but its not much on my place.How do I get more?

I HOPE my food plots are keeping them fed and around,will check cams on saturday,that are on foodplots to see how they are using them.Anty other things I can do at this time of year?

 

[Football Hunter]

BTW,are sawtooth oaks and chinese chestnuts considered invasives?Noticed sawtooths are supplied by TN forrestry.

 

[Quailman]

BTW,are sawtooth oaks and chinese chestnuts considered invasives?Noticed sawtooths are supplied by TN forrestry.

Football Hunter, I've provided our USDA plants database that provides a list of some of the species that are known to be invasive.

Invasive plants

No, sawtooth oak and chinese chestnut are not considered as invasive. Actually chinese chestnut is being used to hopefully bring back the American Chestnut. Some people don't care for sawtooth oak because it's non-native, but I honestly don't have a problem with it myself.

 

[Football Hunter]

good info

 

[Boone 58]

I remember in georgia fertilizing some just before bow season opened and they hit that particular patch like it was sugar....Deer feed on honeysuckle year round if they can get it.

 

[@fulldraw]

Wht not plant it,if its good,its good

Are they any less-healthy without it?

In primarily hardwood habitat, you bet they are!

Please show me the research that supports that statement. And besides, honeysuckle won't grow well in a landscape that is primarily hardwoods because it's a closed canopy system. Honeysuckle requires adequate sunlight to grow well.

The bottom line is that I know that deer utilize honeysuckle in the winter if it's all that is available. However, state and federal wildlife agencies spends millions of dollars a year trying to control and eradicate invasive species, so there's no way I'm going to promote a plant that is low quality and that displaces native species.

Remove the honeysuckle from your forested landscape and tell me how many deer you find dead from starvation.

Being an employee of TDF, I see honeysuckle all across the state and it will grow well in hardwoods especially if there has been any sort of disturbances such has logging. It only takes time for honeysuckle to creep into an area. Personally, I have never seen it so thick nothing can grow, but it will choke out some plants. IMO, honeysuckle is a delicacy to deer. They love it, but don't have to have it to survive winter. There is no need to increase the growth of honeysuckle, it will eventually be established everywhere. Any type of control is only a minor setback.

 

[Quailman]

Very good post Deerchaser

my only advice is get the book Forest plants of the southest and their wildlife uses. This book has been my bible for identifying what i need , and what i have , and what i don't need.

A very good book and one I have in my office as a reference.

Using this book is how i identfied my lack of quality summer browse. AND,.. i feel it lacks so much it is hurting my management plan on my place. Winter browse is important,.. but not to the point it smothers out quality summer browse. The more i understand now, that i didn't know then, is the importance of summer browse.

It is very hard to provide high quality winter food sources unless you have ag crops nearby or an abundance of open fields that can be used for quality food plots. And, there's no doubt that keeping deer healthy into the late winter can be very important for optimizing health when going into the fawning and antler development periods. But you have to look at it realistically. We don't have severe winters in TN, and deer, for the most part, will find ample winter browse to sustain them at this time. And, are we really providing that much benefit from a nutritional standpoint by promoting honeysuckle? So my recommendation is to focus on maximizing food production during the spring and summer through a combination of quality perennial food plots and native vegetation.

What do deer need at this time of year in regards to nutrition? Plant species that are high in protein, digestibility, and of course preference. So, we look at establishing a quality mixture of perennial and annual clovers (during establishment), and of course I always like to add chicory to the mix. In addition and even more importantly, focus your efforts on promoting native vegetation.

How do we promote the species we want? Think "disturbance." Whether you are working with idle fields or hardwood forests, the soil has to be disturbed and sunlight has to reach the ground for these plants to grow. With idle fields, get rid of any existing grasses like fescue with herbicides. Once we've removed these non-native grasses, annual disking as well as prescribed burning can be used on a rotational basis to maintain an early successional plant community. Disk or burn (or both) 1/3-1/2 of any given field every year and you will create high quality summer food sources that rival anything you could plant.

For forested areas, you have to open the canopy and allow sunlight to reach the forest floor. You can use various timber harvest methods, such as select cut or clearcutting. If you don't have timber that has a market value, then other TSI methods like "hack-and-squirt" can be used to remove individual trees to open the canopy and promote more wildlife-friendly tree species. How can you maintain these areas? Rotate small timber cuts throughout your property so there are always new areas of natural regeneration, or you can use herbicides and prescribed burning to kill any re-sprouting of hardwoods/pines in order to maintain these areas in herbaceous vegetation for a longer period of time.

I don't want you to think that I am downplaying the importance of late winter food sources, because I am not. I plant food plots on my property with the sole purpose of leaving them throughout the winter. But, if your land cannot currently provide it, then you need to focus your efforts elsewhere (spring/summer).

 

[Quailman]

Wht not plant it,if its good,its good

Are they any less-healthy without it?

In primarily hardwood habitat, you bet they are!

Please show me the research that supports that statement. And besides, honeysuckle won't grow well in a landscape that is primarily hardwoods because it's a closed canopy system. Honeysuckle requires adequate sunlight to grow well.

The bottom line is that I know that deer utilize honeysuckle in the winter if it's all that is available. However, state and federal wildlife agencies spends millions of dollars a year trying to control and eradicate invasive species, so there's no way I'm going to promote a plant that is low quality and that displaces native species.

Remove the honeysuckle from your forested landscape and tell me how many deer you find dead from starvation.

Being an employee of TDF, I see honeysuckle all across the state and it will grow well in hardwoods especially if there has been any sort of disturbances such has logging.

I agree. It will grow in hardwoods if you open the canopy and allow sunlight to reach the forest floor.

 

[TheLBLman]

Disk or burn (or both) 1/3-1/2 of any given field every year and you will create high quality summer food sources that rival anything you could plant.

Truer words never spoken.
Might want to add simply mowing (1/3-1/2 of any given field) as another way to allow more sunlight to hit the ground and spur new plant growth. I'd say many don't have the resources to do a controlled burn or disking as readily as they could simply do some mowing.