Culling bucks?

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String Music

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Is this a part of QDMA? I have read articles on both sides. I have seen shows where they take out a genetically inferior buck to keep him from passing on his genes. Here is an example:
M13NewPropertyField-August.jpg



I think this buck is 2 1/2. I saw him running around last year as a 1 1/2 and his rack hasn't improved much. I think this buck will remain a tall 6, but I could be wrong.

Here is another 2 1/2 with a much better rack:
Q17ThePines-September.jpg


It seems like I would want the 2 1/2 yr old 8 running around breeding my does more than the tall 6. Any thoughts?
 
I'd wait until they are 3.5 before you try to play genetecist(sp). I believe that pic below is a nice 1.5 yo. We had a buck like you have in the first pic a few years ago we nicknamed Hibachi! Good luck with them.
 
He could be 1 1/2. I have a little bit of trouble aging them this time of year. I hope he is 1 1/2 cuz he'll be a bruiser in 2-3 years!
 
Culling for genetics certainly has a place in high fence operations, not in free ranging herds. Reason I say that is it would be impossible to actually impact your local herd by taking out a 'cull' or two every 3 or 4 years.

The purpose of 'culling' deer in a free ranging herd does have some importance in overpopulated areas, though... in which case, you are just removing a mouth which competes with other deer for the local foodsources. In which case, you would be better served by targeting does rather than bucks. Even bucks with 'inferior' racks are important for social herd dynamics, especially as they age. Older bucks are necessary for the dominant-suppression of younger bucks so the younger bucks don't participate in breeding, thereby allowing them to reach much better body weights (and often antler growth) later in life.
 
BSK, Glad to see you think that way. I agree 100%. Especially when most hunters are unable to judge age effectively on the hoof. I think most folks forget that bucks get half their genetics from their mother and there is no way of telling what kind of antler genetics a doe carries. Burning a tag on a 6 point that may or may not be 2 1/2 is about as efeective at improving genetics as shooting does with twin doe fawns and passing on does that have 2 buck fawns.....
 
The word "Cull" is just a lame excuse to take a deer that most normally would not take. Most people see an altered rack and think it's because of bad genetics when in fact the percentage of genes having any involvement in the antler formation is very low. The majority of malformation has to do with injury or lack of proper nutrition.
 
Because deer behavior is potentially a process designed to produce maximum genetic diversity within localized populations, it is impossible to alter the genetics of a local area through selective removal (culling). Yearling Buck Dispersal (YBD), shifting seasonal ranges, and expansion of ranges during the rut guarantee that new genetics are constantly flowing into (and out of) a property. You cannot concentrate nor remove any particular genetic trait from the herd.
 
I have another question for you. We have ab 15, 1 1/2 yr old bucks on camera on our 1,200 acres. Do you have any data showing how many of those yearlings will disperse? We have excellent cover and food to support a good deer herd.
 
String Music said:
I have another question for you. We have ab 15, 1 1/2 yr old bucks on camera on our 1,200 acres. Do you have any data showing how many of those yearlings will disperse?

The number vary greatly by study, but anywhere from 50% to 80% are the most common values.

However, if you have implemented a high doe harvest, those percentages could probably be reduced significantly. Of course, you have to remember that Yearling Buck Dispersal is usually a zero net loss process. For every yearling that disperses off the property, a replacement yearling disperses onto the property.
 
String Music said:
Ok good. What time of year do does usually run off their yearling buck?

I see the most dispersing yearlings on camera the last two weeks of October (for areas with a mid to late November rut).
 
I've always wondered this....if you harvest the yearling buck's mom, what's going to stop him from knockin up his sis?
 
String Music said:
I've always wondered this....if you harvest the yearling buck's mom, what's going to stop him from knockin up his sis?

Doesn't matter. In penned studies, bucks have been back-bred through their own family line many, many times without any genetic problems. Deer are an extraordinarily genetically diverse species.

Yearling buck dispersal may have developed as a behavior to reduce inbreeding, but it certainly isn't need for that anymore. It appears to be used as a mechanism to spread genetics as far and as quickly as possible.
 
25cent said:
Outside of a high-fence, culling is a waste of effort and generally harmful.

What a name! lol

Here's a reason not to "cull"

In '06 we had a 3.5yr old 7pt. In '07 he was a 4.5yr old 11pt. No doubt it was the same deer.

In '07 we had a 2.5yr old 6pt. This year he is a 3.5yr old 9pt. No doubt the same deer.

Both racks were identical to the previous year but bigger and more points. Without looking at the size difference, they were identical. Ages may be a year off but I'd bout bet the house I'm right on the ages. The 11pt could have been 5.5.
 
With the exception of Spikes, culling was designed only for mature deer, 4.5 and older. Bucks that still had inferior racks at these old ages were then shot, with the idea being he wont spread his genes which could pass his small rack along. I dont think culling was ever intended for young bucks less than 4.5, people just started using the term as an excuse to shoot small racked bucks.
 
25cent said:
Yearling buck dispersal may have developed as a behavior to reduce inbreeding, but it certainly isn't need for that anymore. It appears to be used as a mechanism to spread genetics as far and as quickly as possible.

You seem to say this as if the deer know the process of genetics. This is clearly not the case. What have studies shown that actually cause the mothers to run off their male off-spring?
 
Still-n-Quiet said:
25cent said:
Yearling buck dispersal may have developed as a behavior to reduce inbreeding, but it certainly isn't need for that anymore. It appears to be used as a mechanism to spread genetics as far and as quickly as possible.

You seem to say this as if the deer know the process of genetics. This is clearly not the case. What have studies shown that actually cause the mothers to run off their male off-spring?

Poor symmantics on my part in an attempt to simplify a very complex process. Animals don't know or choose their genetic traits. Nature chooses genetic traits through the Natural Selection process. Those traits that provide an advantage are favored, and those traits that are detrimental are weeded out.

And we can never know exactly why a trait becomes predominant. All we can do is make logical conclusions about why it exists. What positive effect does that trait produce? Perhaps there are several possibilities. In addition, a trait may have been favored for one reason, but over time that same trait may by shear coincidence produce a different favorable effect.

That may be the case with Yearling Buck Dispersal (YBD). Logically, what adantage does it produce? Obviously, it moves male offspring away from their birthplaces. What advantage is that? One advantage is obviously less inbreeding between son and females of his same genetic lineage (mother/grandmother/sister/cousin, etc.). But YBD also produces other advantages they may not have been the original reason it was favored. Of great importance is the fact that whitetailed deer are unusual in that the species displays extreme genetic diversity within the total population and between individuals of a given local population. Because of this, inbreeding really isn't a problem (back-breeding repeatedly through the same family line does not produce the genetic damage commonly called "inbreeding"). So if inbreeding isn't a problem, why is this trait so favored (it is common throughout the entire species, regardless of location)? What other benefits does it produce? It spreads genetics far and wide. Males born in one area leave, set-up home miles away, and then reproduce, moving heritable traits fairly significant distance over short periods of time (a few generations of deer). Is this helpful to deer? It appears so, as deer appear to be using genetic diversity as a species defense mechanism. They are such a genetically diverse species that there are always a few individuals that can prosper--just by shear chance--in any environment they are placed in. Being able to prosper in any environment is a HUGE biological advantage from a survival of the species standpoint.

In fact, there are a long list of deer traits/behaviors that just happen to have the side effect of increasing genetic diversity within localized populations. When you start seeing mutliple traits that all produce the same effect, it starts to become obvious that those traits and their effect are important to the species. Genetic diversity is such a trait in deer, and many of their behaviors increase genetic diversity.
 

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