cull bucks and does?

[trevor2010]

Anyone need a father and son to come thing the doe or cull buck population out. If you don't like shooting does or cull bucks we can take care of the problem for you.

 

[rem270]

There's no such things as cull bucks...

 

[trevor2010]

It all depends on who you talk to with tennessee becoming a "trophy" state if you ain't letting the young one walk its like a sin to most hunters now days it's a shame to me honestly but hey to each their own

 

[bowhunter163]

It all depends on who you talk to with tennessee becoming a "trophy" state if you ain't letting the young one walk its like a sin to most hunters now days it's a shame to me honestly but hey to each their own

I think he meant there is no reason to shoot "cull" bucks . Most biologists and several studies now believe the majority of the antler genetics are passed down by the doe . Therefore it is next to impossible to "cull" out any inferior antler genetics of a free ranging deer herd . "Cull" bucks has been made popular by the hunting industry and their need to somehow justify themselves shooting a particular deer that doesn't measure up to their "trophy" standards . When in reality they killed a mature buck , it doesn't matter how big the antlers are , and to me that's just as gratifying .

Sorry about the hijack , I'm kind of partial to this topic and it's one of those things that bugs me lol

 

[Vermin93]

There are millions of dollars being spent in the industry of growing trophy bucks. Money talks. I have a hard time believing an entire industry is voluntarily throwing money down the drain. I honestly don't buy the theory that bucks have little to do with the genetics of the offspring. I don't have a dog in the fight and I really don't care, but I've seen enough time, money and effort be put into raising and breeding trophy bucks to believe that there is no reason to shoot cull bucks and that does do the vast majority of the talking when it comes to genetics. When the money dries up and the industry collapses in places like Texas and other big time "breeder buck" states, I might believe it.

 

[megalomaniac]

It all depends on who you talk to with tennessee becoming a "trophy" state if you ain't letting the young one walk its like a sin to most hunters now days it's a shame to me honestly but hey to each their own

TN will never become a 'trophy' destination as you claim. However, due to TWRA and other entities (QDMA, private and clubs willing to pass up younger bucks), TN's deer herd has never been healthier than now. AND THAT is what we should focus on. More 'trophy' deer are just an incidental byproduct of sound management for healthier deer.

No disrespect intended, but your first post and 3rd post are so diametrically opposed, that it would be hard for a deer manager to know what your intentions are...

As far as 'cull' bucks.... sure, there's a place for them in the herd. Not for management (unless your local population is near carrying capacity), but as a way to allow hunters to kill an additional mature deer when harvest numbers are severely restricted.

For example, I allow those to hunt my properties to harvest one 'buck of choice'... which is just that. Any buck they want to take- be it a spike or a 150" 10 ptr. But after that, your season is done on my farm. However, we typically have one or 2 other mature (4.5 or older) bucks on the farms with subpar antlers (80-100 gross inches). If I have photos of a buck that I place on the 'cull' list, I allow those that hunt my farms to kill one of the 'culls' as an additional buck, not counting as thier 'buck of choice'. That allows individuals to continue hunting even after killing their only annual 'buck of choice' without negatively impacting all the others chance at killing their 'buck of choice' each year.

 

[bowhunter163]

There are millions of dollars being spent in the industry of growing trophy bucks. Money talks. I have a hard time believing an entire industry is voluntarily throwing money down the drain. I honestly don't buy the theory that bucks have little to do with the genetics of the offspring. I don't have a dog in the fight and I really don't care, but I've seen enough time, money and effort be put into raising and breeding trophy bucks to believe that there is no reason to shoot cull bucks and that does do the vast majority of the talking when it comes to genetics. When the money dries up and the industry collapses in places like Texas and other big time "breeder buck" states, I might believe it.

Money , that is why . In a high fence environment , they control which does are bred with each buck . I have yet to see a buck that has bred two different does and the offspring sport the same antler characteristics, not saying it doesn't happen . But I have seen studies where the same doe produced male offspring in consecutive years that developed similar antler characteristics .

I'm not saying a buck doesn't contribute at all . In fact , someone posted recently about the possibility of a buck fathering a doe fawn which could carry his antler genetics . So when she had a male fawn it could have those genetics passed to him . But that is unsubstantiated , but seems plausible to me .

The high fence industry sells does as well . They also "get rid" of does that do not produce the offspring they want . You cannot compare what is done on a high fence breeding facility to what we can control as hunters/managers in the wild . It is impossible to even come remotely close to the amount of control these breeding facility's have .

 

[Vermin93]

I have seen no studies and am pretty ignorant on the subject, but I think the fact that there are "breeder bucks" at all says a lot. It also seems to imply that a case could be made for culling inferior bucks. Just trying to use simple logic here based on what's happening in the free market.

 

[Buckbuster03]

I have seen no studies and am pretty ignorant on the subject, but I think the fact that there are "breeder bucks" at all says a lot. It also seems to imply that a case could be made for culling inferior bucks. Just trying to use simple logic here based on what's happening in the free market.

Yes there are "Breeder bucks" as you say because like said above MOST genetics come from the doe. That leaves some genetics to the Buck so why would you not want what little genetics that do come from the buck to be the biggest buck you could possibly get.

Also if you look into deer farming at all you will very quickly see that does that have good genetic pedigree are TWICE as expensive as those "Breeder bucks"

 

[AT Hiker]

I have seen no studies and am pretty ignorant on the subject, but I think the fact that there are "breeder bucks" at all says a lot. It also seems to imply that a case could be made for culling inferior bucks. Just trying to use simple logic here based on what's happening in the free market.

A quick online search will lend this info;
(Buck)Gladiator Backstop (Sire)Gladiator/Reno Price per straw =$3,500

In the cattle world a straw of semen will breed about 4-8, depending on dose.

So I agree with you, someone spending $3,500 just on a straw of semen surely would know what they are getting into. Maybe it is not specifically "antler" traits that are passed genetically but something the male passes on is significant other wise it would almost be irrelevant which male does any of the breeding.

 

[landman]

Well since this post has officially been high jacked
I'll make a statement

In TN the high fence hunting tracts usually are over
a 1,000 acres....if you think the land owners can
control which bucks breed which doe or which buck
they "allow " to breed you need to check into rehab
quickly for your drug problem.

Mainly when these guys say cull deer it's due to
the fact the HAVE TO KILL so many deer every year
To keep the habitat and feed bill down


Bubkbuster03 I personally can't help you
Sorry

 

[Vermin93]

I have seen no studies and am pretty ignorant on the subject, but I think the fact that there are "breeder bucks" at all says a lot. It also seems to imply that a case could be made for culling inferior bucks. Just trying to use simple logic here based on what's happening in the free market.

Yes there are "Breeder bucks" as you say because like said above MOST genetics come from the doe. That leaves some genetics to the Buck so why would you not want what little genetics that do come from the buck to be the biggest buck you could possibly get.

Also if you look into deer farming at all you will very quickly see that does that have good genetic pedigree are TWICE as expensive as those "Breeder bucks"

These are in controlled environments. You can't control breeding factors in the wild as there are too many variables, so what is the point in trying i.e. justifying?

In a controlled environment, a breeder buck breeds 30 does, some of the offspring are males, some are females. Some of the male offspring grow big antlers, some grow average antlers, some grow less than average. Even in controlled environments, you get inconsistent results. A controlled environment can only hold so many deer, so the less than desirable are killed/culled.

You can't control genetics in the wild. If you want to kill a certain deer, kill it, but don't justify it. BTW, Vermin, you might want to remove those James Kroll publications from your bathroom reading selection

Interesting, but it doesn't seem to address the root question of if and how much bucks contribute genetically to offspring. I see this as 4 basic questions.

1. Do bucks contribute genetically to offspring?
2. If so, how much?
3. Is there a logical reason to cull bucks in controlled environments?
4. Is there a logical reason to cull bucks in uncontrolled environments?

You addressed question 3 and 4, but I still think 1 and 2 are open questions. I think we have people who would answer no to question 1, which would contradict the whole concept of a breeder buck.

 

[catman529]

Y'all have to turn this into a cull buck debate? The guy is looking for a place for him and his son to shoot some meat for the freezer. I don't think he cares if there's such thing as a cull buck, he just wants to shoot a few deer. Wish I could offer a place.

 

[AT Hiker]

Y'all have to turn this into a cull buck debate? The guy is looking for a place for him and his son to shoot some meat for the freezer. I don't think he cares if there's such thing as a cull buck, he just wants to shoot a few deer. Wish I could offer a place.

If we want to we can I suppose.

I suggest he applies for the NWR quota hunts or contacts his local TWRA agent, they might be able to offer a landowners contact info for some doe thinning or "culling".