Cougars Again

[PillsburyDoughboy]

https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/cougars-in-tennessee

Because Tennessee law protects all animals for which no hunting season is proclaimed, the cougar is protected in Tennessee. It is illegal to kill a cougar in Tennessee except in the case of imminent threat of life and injury. Also, if a landowner is experiencing property damage made by wildlife, that landowner has the right to protect his/her property. TWRA has never, nor has it any plans to stock or otherwise physically encourage the establishment of a cougar population in Tennessee. TWRA plans to monitor the natural expansion of the cougar from the western US as it pertains to Tennessee. - See more at: https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/cougars ... HVNsO.dpuf

Interesting quote I have not seen before. "Also, if a landowner is experiencing property damage made by wildlife, that landowner has the right to protect his/her property. "


Seems like to me there was some recent (or not so recent) discussion about changes to the language of Landowner Vs Farmland Exemption The primary purpose of the tenancy
shall be agricultural in nature. Raising TREES can be considered a primary purpose.


TCA 70-2-204. Hunting and fishing on farm land — License
exemption to owner, tenants and their spouses and
children. – (a) The owners and tenants of farmlands, and
their spouse and children, have the right to engage in the
sport of hunting and fishing, subject to all the provisions
of all laws or regulations concerning wildlife, upon such
lands and waters thereon of which they or their spouses or
parents are the bona fide owners or tenants with the permission
of the landowner, during the season when it is lawful
to do so, without procuring a hunting and sport fishing
license. Tenants and their spouses and their dependent
children must be bona fide residents of the state and must
actually reside on the land. Owners and their spouses and
children must be bona fide residents of the state. Land
may qualify as farmland only if it is owned by no more than
one (1) individual or a family; provided, that if land is owned
jointly or in common by persons who are first cousins
related by blood, then such cousins and their children may
hunt small game and fish on such land under the provisions
of this subsection. "Family" means any combination
of kinship within the third degree including any spouse
who has an interest in the property. "Tenant" means an
individual who receives compensation such as free rent or
money for acting either in the place of or at the direction of
the landowner in tending to the requirements needed to
care for the farmland. The primary purpose of the tenancy
shall be agricultural in nature.

So I guess my point is if Cougars are damaging a tree.. something that is costing the farmland owner money.. would this not be a argument that could be made in defense for shooting a cougar???

Just playing devils advocate here. Not trying to start WW3.

 

[Rjratliff1975]

I read that property damage quote yesterday on TWRA's website. I too thought that was very interesting. It seems to me any home or land owner could kill deer, turkey or other wildlife at any time of the year and try to use the excuse of property damage.

 

[TheLBLman]

It seems to me any home or land owner could kill deer, turkey or other wildlife at any time of the year and try to use the excuse of property damage.

I suppose the legitimacy of said "excuse" could boil down to how one's peers might value the particular property in question.

There was a time when if one stole another's horse (livestock property), the penalty was death to the horse thief.

So the value of one thing over another has always been a matter of perspective.

 

[TheLBLman]

Question, and this is asked solely in the context of within Tennessee's borders . . . .

Why do some people believe the coyote should be eradicated (or at least killed off to the extent humanly possible),
while the Western cougar should be "introduced" into Tennessee,
never mind, the same arguments against the coyote are equally if not more fitting to the Western cougar?

 

[Mike Belt]

Typically coyotes inhabit an area of acres in numbers as opposed to lions inhabiting an area of miles solitarily. In areas containing mountain lions observing one is rare so a sighting is a feat. I suspect that those hoping for a lion foothold here in Tn would love to be able to sight one. I also suspect that a confrontation with one, either face to face or dealing with the damage one might do to livestock, etc, would quickly end their little "fantasy" with cougars.

 

[TheLBLman]

Typically coyotes inhabit an area of acres in numbers as opposed to lions inhabiting an area of miles solitarily. In areas containing mountain lions observing one is rare so a sighting is a feat.

True.
As an aside, it appears the primary food item of cougars is deer, and they require approximately 1 or 2 deer weekly, so, just one "solitary" cougar would be expected to eat 50 to 100 deer annually.
I suspect a hundred coyotes, their primary diet NOT being deer, might consume fewer deer annually than just a single cougar.

But perhaps both the coyote & the cougar find the common housecat and small yappy dogs favored delicacies.

 

[Rjratliff1975]

It seems to me any home or land owner could kill deer, turkey or other wildlife at any time of the year and try to use the excuse of property damage.

I suppose the legitimacy of said "excuse" could boil down to how one's peers might value the particular property in question.

There was a time when if one stole another's horse (livestock property), the penalty was death to the horse thief.

So the value of one thing over another has always been a matter of perspective.

Yeah, I would think you would have to have plenty of proof of property damage to get away with killing a mountain lion, period, or a deer or turkey out of season. I know several years ago woodpeckers drilled 5 huge holes in my neighbors cedar sided home. They said that they contacted TWRA and was told they could not kill the birds, but gave them some tips to try to keep them away, or told them they may have to call a wildlife removal company. Years ago growing up in KY my grandfather had a problem with red-tailed hawks killing his chickens. He once asked a game warden what we could legally do. He was told " shooting them would be completely illegal, so keep it quite if you do".

 

[Rjratliff1975]

Typically coyotes inhabit an area of acres in numbers as opposed to lions inhabiting an area of miles solitarily. In areas containing mountain lions observing one is rare so a sighting is a feat.

True.
As an aside, it appears the primary food item of cougars is deer, and they require approximately 1 or 2 deer weekly, so, just one "solitary" cougar would be expected to eat 50 to 100 deer annually.
I suspect a hundred coyotes, their primary diet NOT being deer, might consume fewer deer annually than just a single cougar.

But perhaps both the coyote & the cougar find the common housecat and small yappy dogs favored delicacies.

I'm not sure. I would think a hundred coyotes would kill way more deer than a single cougar in a year. Most of the research I have read shows coyotes prey heavily on deer, especially fawns.

 

[scn]

https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/cougars-in-tennessee

Because Tennessee law protects all animals for which no hunting season is proclaimed, the cougar is protected in Tennessee. It is illegal to kill a cougar in Tennessee except in the case of imminent threat of life and injury. Also, if a landowner is experiencing property damage made by wildlife, that landowner has the right to protect his/her property. TWRA has never, nor has it any plans to stock or otherwise physically encourage the establishment of a cougar population in Tennessee. TWRA plans to monitor the natural expansion of the cougar from the western US as it pertains to Tennessee. - See more at: https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/cougars ... HVNsO.dpuf

Interesting quote I have not seen before. "Also, if a landowner is experiencing property damage made by wildlife, that landowner has the right to protect his/her property. "


Seems like to me there was some recent (or not so recent) discussion about changes to the language of Landowner Vs Farmland Exemption The primary purpose of the tenancy
shall be agricultural in nature. Raising TREES can be considered a primary purpose.


TCA 70-2-204. Hunting and fishing on farm land — License
exemption to owner, tenants and their spouses and
children. – (a) The owners and tenants of farmlands, and
their spouse and children, have the right to engage in the
sport of hunting and fishing, subject to all the provisions
of all laws or regulations concerning wildlife, upon such
lands and waters thereon of which they or their spouses or
parents are the bona fide owners or tenants with the permission
of the landowner, during the season when it is lawful
to do so, without procuring a hunting and sport fishing
license. Tenants and their spouses and their dependent
children must be bona fide residents of the state and must
actually reside on the land. Owners and their spouses and
children must be bona fide residents of the state. Land
may qualify as farmland only if it is owned by no more than
one (1) individual or a family; provided, that if land is owned
jointly or in common by persons who are first cousins
related by blood, then such cousins and their children may
hunt small game and fish on such land under the provisions
of this subsection. "Family" means any combination
of kinship within the third degree including any spouse
who has an interest in the property. "Tenant" means an
individual who receives compensation such as free rent or
money for acting either in the place of or at the direction of
the landowner in tending to the requirements needed to
care for the farmland. The primary purpose of the tenancy
shall be agricultural in nature.

So I guess my point is if Cougars are damaging a tree.. something that is costing the farmland owner money.. would this not be a argument that could be made in defense for shooting a cougar???

Just playing devils advocate here. Not trying to start WW3.

Since it is mentioned on the website, it is probably something your lawyer could bring up in court during your trial.

It would definitely not be a "get out of jail free card".

 

[PillsburyDoughboy]

https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/cougars-in-tennessee

Because Tennessee law protects all animals for which no hunting season is proclaimed, the cougar is protected in Tennessee. It is illegal to kill a cougar in Tennessee except in the case of imminent threat of life and injury. Also, if a landowner is experiencing property damage made by wildlife, that landowner has the right to protect his/her property. TWRA has never, nor has it any plans to stock or otherwise physically encourage the establishment of a cougar population in Tennessee. TWRA plans to monitor the natural expansion of the cougar from the western US as it pertains to Tennessee. - See more at: https://www.tn.gov/twra/article/cougars ... HVNsO.dpuf

Interesting quote I have not seen before. "Also, if a landowner is experiencing property damage made by wildlife, that landowner has the right to protect his/her property. "


Seems like to me there was some recent (or not so recent) discussion about changes to the language of Landowner Vs Farmland Exemption The primary purpose of the tenancy
shall be agricultural in nature. Raising TREES can be considered a primary purpose.


TCA 70-2-204. Hunting and fishing on farm land — License
exemption to owner, tenants and their spouses and
children. – (a) The owners and tenants of farmlands, and
their spouse and children, have the right to engage in the
sport of hunting and fishing, subject to all the provisions
of all laws or regulations concerning wildlife, upon such
lands and waters thereon of which they or their spouses or
parents are the bona fide owners or tenants with the permission
of the landowner, during the season when it is lawful
to do so, without procuring a hunting and sport fishing
license. Tenants and their spouses and their dependent
children must be bona fide residents of the state and must
actually reside on the land. Owners and their spouses and
children must be bona fide residents of the state. Land
may qualify as farmland only if it is owned by no more than
one (1) individual or a family; provided, that if land is owned
jointly or in common by persons who are first cousins
related by blood, then such cousins and their children may
hunt small game and fish on such land under the provisions
of this subsection. "Family" means any combination
of kinship within the third degree including any spouse
who has an interest in the property. "Tenant" means an
individual who receives compensation such as free rent or
money for acting either in the place of or at the direction of
the landowner in tending to the requirements needed to
care for the farmland. The primary purpose of the tenancy
shall be agricultural in nature.

So I guess my point is if Cougars are damaging a tree.. something that is costing the farmland owner money.. would this not be a argument that could be made in defense for shooting a cougar???

Just playing devils advocate here. Not trying to start WW3.

Since it is mentioned on the website, it is probably something your lawyer could bring up in court during your trial.

It would definitely not be a "get out of jail free card".

Exactly what I was suggesting . That it could be used as a legal basis for a effective argument in the event of a arrest and trial .


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[scn]

I sort of doubt that scratching a tree would have much traction in court.

 

[bubbadye]

Just something to think about. I'm not a cougar expert, but I am a Tennessee hunter and farmer. The day I start missing calves, or have cows being mauled, is the day I call in sick and go on my first Tennessee cougar hunt. Its not my first source of income, but it does help out a good bit when prices are right. That would justify me as destruction of property in my opinion. I've already got a spot picked out for my full body mount to be displayed. Wife approved!

 

[scn]

Just something to think about. I'm not a cougar expert, but I am a Tennessee hunter and farmer. The day I start missing calves, or have cows being mauled, is the day I call in sick and go on my first Tennessee cougar hunt. Its not my first source of income, but it does help out a good bit when prices are right. That would justify me as destruction of property in my opinion. I've already got a spot picked out for my full body mount to be displayed. Wife approved!

While the property defense might win out in court, without it being a legal animal for take would make it about a zero chance of keeping the animal for taxidermy.

 

[PillsburyDoughboy]

Just something to think about. I'm not a cougar expert, but I am a Tennessee hunter and farmer. The day I start missing calves, or have cows being mauled, is the day I call in sick and go on my first Tennessee cougar hunt. Its not my first source of income, but it does help out a good bit when prices are right. That would justify me as destruction of property in my opinion. I've already got a spot picked out for my full body mount to be displayed. Wife approved!

While the property defense might win out in court, without it being a legal animal for take would make it about a zero chance of keeping the animal for taxidermy.

I'm sure ur right about that.


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[Talome13]

Any cougar spotted on my farm is toast. Not taking the chance of losing calves.

 

[double browtine]

Any cougar spotted on my farm is toast. Not taking the chance of losing calves.

op: op: :stir:
Waiting for someone with TWRA to chime in.

 

[treefarmer]

I looked and found the female has a home range of 10-400 sq. mi. and the male, 60-500 sq. mi. I'll be lucky to ever see one in my life but wouldn't expect to ever see it again because it has such a large home range. I hope more come, as it makes going out into our woodlands more of an adventure.

 

[Methane]

Bow hunting in NE Missouri about 10 years ago, a cougar slowly stalked by my 12 ft stand at a distance of easily no more than 30-40 feet. I admit I was completely freaked out. I climbed down well before dark. Some will call BS on this but it was confirmed by GW that cougar(s) were active in the area. I know what a bobcat looks like....it was not a bobcat.

 

[Mike Belt]

I can fully understand the skepticism in "Joe Blow" stating he'd seen a mountain lion but sometimes it's fact. I'm one of those "Joe Blows". That being said I also understand the attraction to the "wildness" of witnessing one or the desire to have that "wildness" but as a deer hunter, particularly one that hunts an area that has seen a decline in deer numbers, I don't really desire any more competition for what I'm after myself. Most of us are after a buck during the season and as I understand it, lions probably take out more bucks than does.

 

[PillsburyDoughboy]

I can fully understand the skepticism in "Joe Blow" stating he'd seen a mountain lion but sometimes it's fact. I'm one of those "Joe Blows". That being said I also understand the attraction to the "wildness" of witnessing one or the desire to have that "wildness" but as a deer hunter, particularly one that hunts an area that has seen a decline in deer numbers, I don't really desire any more competition for what I'm after myself. Most of us are after a buck during the season and as I understand it, lions probably take out more bucks than does.

Just curious where you get that information??? Not saying you are wrong but I always understood mountain lions to feed on smaller weaker animals including rabbit and rodents???

I know the remains we would see out west were generally cow moose. I think mainly because they were just large enough that they did not move very fast and they did not put up much resistance. Where as a Elk or mule deer could travel pretty fast.

 

[Mike Belt]

Two reasons.... Bucks are more solitary animals. That equates to them having fewer eyes, ears, and noses to detect danger thus potentially making them easier prey. Secondly, many bucks are either injured or worn down from the rut making them more vulnerable, particularly later into the season.

 

[PillsburyDoughboy]

Two reasons.... Bucks are more solitary animals. That equates to them having fewer eyes, ears, and noses to detect danger thus potentially making them easier prey. Secondly, many bucks are either injured or worn down from the rut making them more vulnerable, particularly later into the season.

Interesting . Is there any data to support that or just a conclusion u came up with ??


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