Can it really be just soil quality?

[Southern Sportsman]

Cool article. And I think the answer is, of course not. I'm sure that's part of it (better soil=better ag=better food) but it cant be all of it. I don't know all the state's limits over that timeframe, but I bet there is a correlation between lower limits and bigger bucks. Alabama had only 5 entries. Their soil isn't markedly different than GA or most of MS, but they had notoriously high deer limits.

 

[Huntaholic]

NO! Its the ridiculously high limits we have had for way too many years. IF they will leave the limit like it is now, you will see a remarkable rise in B&C class bucks in the next 3 years. AGE, first and foremost is what it takes to have quality animals.

 

[AXL78]

Tennessee is not bigger than Arkansas or Mississippi. Arkansas is much more agricultural than Tennessee with very good soil. There are vast agricultural operations across most of the east Arkansas Delta, with the land to grow really large bucks. Along the mississippi river they grow as big as anywhere in the country. The majority of Tennessee's habitat is just not conducive to growing trophy sized bucks. It has been discussed on here in the past.

 

[Mike Belt]

I'm betting most of the book bucks from Ark and Ms came from the delta. We don't have much of that in Tn. Soil types, length of hunting seasons, weapons allowed, and limits all figure into it.

 

[chebuck]

I'm betting most of the book bucks from Ark and Ms came from the delta. We don't have much of that in Tn. Soil types, length of hunting seasons, weapons allowed, and limits all figure into it.

I agree completely. I live about 10 miles south of the Ken-Tenn line and work in Kentucky. It is amazing the differance 1 or 2 miles makes. I see better quality deer and more deer out in the fields.

 

[AXL78]

Docpoco, Yes, Tennessee does have some, but not near as much as Arkansas. The difference in land on the Arkansas side vs the Tennessee side is pretty big. You have to consider, behind the levee in Arkansas is still very good land that used to flood before the levee's were built. This delta land is a vast expanse that is not just located directly on the Mississippi River as it is on the Tennessee side. And not just the Mississippi River, there are several river systems that run through Arkansas creating rich bottomland habitat, hence the great duck hunting. Much of central and east Arkansas is Delta land. Tennessee just doesn't have the acreage of this type land that Arkansas has.

 

[AXL78]

Also Docpoco, I want to add, this very good land in the Delta of Arkansas is very private. I am not talking about people owning 2-300 acres here and there, thousands of acres of privately controlled ground. There are some very big bucks along the river on this private ground, and in the delta. It is not comparable to your average or above average tennessee ground.

 

[tsc]

NO! Its the ridiculously high limits we have had for way too many years. IF they will leave the limit like it is now, you will see a remarkable rise in B&C class bucks in the next 3 years. AGE, first and foremost is what it takes to have quality animals.

This. Just think what would happen if for 4 years we had a zero buck limit,or 8 years with a 1 buck limit. We would surpass Kentucky in a few years after that.

 

[Dbllunger]

Also Docpoco, I want to add, this very good land in the Delta of Arkansas is very private. I am not talking about people owning 2-300 acres here and there, thousands of acres of privately controlled ground. There are some very big bucks along the river on this private ground, and in the delta. It is not comparable to your average or above average tennessee ground.

Very true. In high school and undergrad I lived in SE Arkansas and 200-300 acres is just a decent sized rice field. Myself and a couple of other high school friends get together every year and head back for a duck hunt with one of our other friends that farms there. He and his brother own/lease about 12,000 acres for farming every year. Luckily finding ducks isn't much of a problem.

They kill huge bucks every year but deer hunting is an afterthought for them. It is something to do when you can't hunt ducks.

Get caught trespassing around there and you are in for a world of hurt. The law will be the least of your problems.

 

[AXL78]

Yeah, dbllunger, that's what I meant by very private. I'm guessing a lot haven't been scored or entered too. Plenty die of old age as well. Arkansas is not comparable to Tennessee in many ways. Arkansas land can and does grow monsters, not just in pockets.

 

[scn]

NO! Its the ridiculously high limits we have had for way too many years. IF they will leave the limit like it is now, you will see a remarkable rise in B&C class bucks in the next 3 years. AGE, first and foremost is what it takes to have quality animals.

This. Just think what would happen if for 4 years we had a zero buck limit,or 8 years with a 1 buck limit. We would surpass Kentucky in a few years after that.

I'm sure you posted that as a joke because it is laughable.

 

[tsc]

NO! Its the ridiculously high limits we have had for way too many years. IF they will leave the limit like it is now, you will see a remarkable rise in B&C class bucks in the next 3 years. AGE, first and foremost is what it takes to have quality animals.

This. Just think what would happen if for 4 years we had a zero buck limit,or 8 years with a 1 buck limit. We would surpass Kentucky in a few years after that.

I'm sure you posted that as a joke because it is laughable.

I didn't have a joke in mind,just wishful dreaming. I know it will never happen,heck I think it's miracle we are down to a 2 buck limit! :party:

 

[Bone Collector]

I would like to see some more recent data. I can tell you just from being no this site, since 2009 and on some deer hunting groups on FB this year that the # of big bucks being killed in TN is on the rise significantly.

 

[Winchester]

NO! Its the ridiculously high limits we have had for way too many years. IF they will leave the limit like it is now, you will see a remarkable rise in B&C class bucks in the next 3 years. AGE, first and foremost is what it takes to have quality animals.

This. Just think what would happen if for 4 years we had a zero buck limit,or 8 years with a 1 buck limit. We would surpass Kentucky in a few years after that.

I'm sure you posted that as a joke because it is laughable.

Exactly what I was thinking, is he joking??? I only wish this new 2 buck limit would do half as much for TN in terms of producing big racked bucks in great quantities as so many here think it will!! To make a real difference like some are envisioning the limit would have to be dropped to 1, and even then it would take a few years to see the true results, which would be nowhere near some of the rich soiled, crop packed, Midwest states.

 

[tsc]

Good grief! Y'all got some itchy trigger fingers. I was lucky to be able to see a place where deer get to grow up,it was nothing special soil wise ,clay and chert with a mix of hardwoods and some beans and corn but the deer didn't get shot at 2.5 and the older ones(4.5-5.5) were huge. I wouldn't have any problem at all with a 1 buck limit and that's no joke. If we could have a 5 year 1 buck limit that would sunset at the end of 5 years and then resume the 2 buck limit I think people would be happy with the results. If we could get a good % of the buck population to 3.5 when the season closed,to the point to where they knew how to survive the season like older bucks do,imagine what you might see during the rut?

 

[muddyboots]

I personally think age is the most important thing but what they eat makes a difference too. My best lease is creek bottom land that is farmed and the same aged bucks will be bigger than my lease that is timber company land where all they eat is acorns and briars. But I have noticed this. On the creek lease we kill on average better scoring bucks but on the timber land the biggest buck of the year will come from there of the 2 places and it has terrible soil but has the places for a buck to hide and get old.

 

[tsc]

I've got another 1st hand example,around where I live back until about 5 years ago everything with 4 legs and horns got shot,to hear 30 40 shots opening day was normal. Since then I don't hear near the shots for what ever reason,maybe the guys got tired of shooting little bucks or they found other places to go or what ever,but the big bucks 3 to 5 year olds have exploded. The big deer we get on cameras and see first hand now is quadruple or more what I saw the previous 15 years.In that 15 year period I saw 3 8 pointers with racks at or outside their ears, this year alone I saw 4 with 1 being far bigger than that.

 

[AXL78]

Kentucky has also been getting more attention over the last decade, even past that. More hunters, outfitters, management of private land, and probably more people aware of its potential, and more registering of b and c bucks. A lot of things have changed. Kentucky has glacial soil. It was discussed on here years ago, the big buck states of the Midwest, including Kentucky have glacial soils, that is, where the glaciers moved down and eventually melted leaving nutrient rich land. The glaciers stopped in Kentucky, I think around the state line, therefore, Tennessee will never be able to compete with Kentucky or the Midwest on a statewide basis. There are "pockets" of land with potential and exceptions, but the the states in the Midwest, including Kentucky, have soil types that Tennessee can not compete with. It is not possible due to soil content. This argument is very old.

 

[megalomaniac]

No, it's not just soil... it takes all 3, probably in equal of importance... age, nutrition, and genetics. If you don't have all 3, you won't grow a Booner.

 

[Bone Collector]

I would like to see some more recent data. I can tell you just from being no this site, since 2009 and on some deer hunting groups on FB this year that the # of big bucks being killed in TN is on the rise significantly.

I'm not saying that it is not on the rise as I don't actually know, but I would not dismiss the fact that social media has become an increasingly popular means if hunter interaction and it is possible that we are just seeing more of the big deer killed where, in the past, such deer were limited to tangible photos and check station gatherings. We may very well be seeing almost every "big" deer killed in the state these days rather than a select few. It could also be a combination of both social media and bigger deer. It could also be attributed to more hunters being highly selective and seeing more opportunity as a result and no necessarily just bigger deer existing, but hunter killing bigger deer.

Regardless, I think most of things are good things for Tennessee deer hunting, but also fear that it may further drive the extreme trophyists to push towards further restricting our deer hunting due to the desire of an abundance of such types of deer (i.e. "less rifle hunting, more bow hunting, shorter season" type arguments which also seem to be on the rise).

and within one post...... :bash: :bash: :bash:

Good grief! Y'all got some itchy trigger fingers. I was lucky to be able to see a place where deer get to grow up,it was nothing special soil wise ,clay and chert with a mix of hardwoods and some beans and corn but the deer didn't get shot at 2.5 and the older ones(4.5-5.5) were huge. I wouldn't have any problem at all with a 1 buck limit and that's no joke.

As an FYI I don't believe that any state in the US should manage their deer herd for "trophy standards" or bigger antlers. The only thing that should be considered is biological data and older bucks are not mandatory for the health of the herd.

 

[AXL78]

People have to take the rules and manage their land as best they can under those guidelines. Not everyone cares enough to worry about it the way a lot of us do. There are a lot of big bucks out their already, if you could manage pressure you may see more of them. What many people need to do, is buy/lease a place, or join a place with like minded individuals, and set their own guidelines to accomplish what they desire. Trying to dictate what needs to be done on a statewide level is just not the answer. It can vary widely in a county.

 

[megalomaniac]

As an FYI I don't believe that any state in the US should manage their deer herd for "trophy standards" or bigger antlers. The only thing that should be considered is biological data and older bucks are not mandatory for the health of the herd.

Why not have both? I mean, doesn't everyone benefit from a better age structure?

Genetically speaking, having 50% of the breeding done by yearlings is not necessarily in the best interest of the herd.

Genetically speaking, it makes no difference whether a buck is 1.5 or 5.5 when he breeds a doe... his genes do NOT change throughout his lifespan, so there is no difference in which genes are passed on to the next generation...

Phenotypically speaking, it makes a HUGE difference whether a young buck participates in the rut as a 1.5 y/o.... the stresses of the rut, chasing, breeding, and staying off feed and losing up to 40% of his body weight will negatively affect not only his body weight as an adult, but also the size of his rack. Significant rut stresses as a 1.5 y/o absolutely will negatively affect the phenotypic expression of his genes.

 

[Huntaholic]

tsc, Its nice to see somebody in these threads with some common sense that isn't addicted to the twra Kool aid

 

[FARMTOFIELD]

Age, habitat management, plenty of food.

 

[SAWDUST]

No, it's not just soil... it takes all 3, probably in equal of importance... age, nutrition, and genetics. If you don't have all 3, you won't grow a Booner.

Thats right.

 

[Bucket]

I don't have much to add to this discussion, but the similarities in these 2 maps is hard to argue:

 

[PillsburyDoughboy]

I think soil is part of it. I also think it has something to do with the dramatic weather swings we have here.

Farmers have a very delicate balance of what to grow here because corn and greens while the payout is very high on these the risk is also very high. A farmer could sustain a complete loss of crop on a flood year. Drought, Early Frost late Frost, floods,, all of those things hampers farmers in Tn from consistently planting corn and greens from year to year. They are constantly having to gauge what to plant from year to year based on the Almanac and other factors.

Many TN farmers have gone the safe route of planting Hay, Tobacco, wheat and cotton which are safer crops to plant but do not yield as high of a return. Deer do not get nutritional value from those products.

 

[Land Between the Lakes]

If every buck in TN could live to reach maturity there would be far more trophy bucks in the state.

 

[AXL78]

You know, a boone and crockett buck is an exceptional buck anywhere he is killed. Even in the midwest, it is not the norm, far from it. That is what makes it special. They just aren't going to occur very often anywhere, even on highly managed properties in a big buck state. Tennessee kills many older age class bucks. I''m not going to go back and look up any numbers, but I think it has been posted on here that we kill a higher percentage of older bucks than some of the "big buck" states. I may be wrong there, but either way, know that Tennessee is not ever going to produce a bunch of booners. No state is going to produce enough to satisfy a book seeker. When it comes to a booner, a lot is out of anyone's hands. I don't even know why it matters. Who cares. For people bent on killing older bucks, I think Tennessee provides that opportunity. It isn't out of most hunters reach to hunt an older buck.

 

[Bone Collector]

People have to take the rules and manage their land as best they can under those guidelines. Not everyone cares enough to worry about it the way a lot of us do. There are a lot of big bucks out their already, if you could manage pressure you may see more of them. What many people need to do, is buy/lease a place, or join a place with like minded individuals, and set their own guidelines to accomplish what they desire. Trying to dictate what needs to be done on a statewide level is just not the answer. It can vary widely in a county.

This^^^^