Bridgestone Firestone Clearcut

[CFAZ]

Hey Guys. New member here but long time reader. Love to read here for the info but never join or post as I am not much of an internet or social media person. But thought this subject would be of interest to many here so am breaking my self imposed exile for just this topic and thread only.

A few weeks ago was doing some work on my deer huntin patch (we call it the Champ Ferguson Autonomous Zone) up on the plateau and heard on the radio about some White County hunters expressing their concerns about clearcutting at Bridgestone WMA. I had been there this year and knew they were cutting out some of the pines for quail habitat, but it turns out much of the hardwood is slated to go too, which in my opinion will just about destroy the deer hunting there. So after doing some research I found that State Representive Sherrell was involved in trying to set up a meeting with the TWRA to discuss it. So I sent him an email, along with all the other area reps, but so far have only heard back from Senator Mark Pody who let me know he is looking into it. This is a great hunting area and I thought the guys here should know whats going on before they just show up one day to hunt and find your huntin spot is now just broomsedge and kudzu.

Sorry to be such a downer with my first post but I figure there are guys here that are not going to be really happy if they knew this being planned. I use the area several times a year and I know I wasn't when I heard about it.

Will try to post the pertinent links but I am new to this so it might take me a few tries.

Link to news radio bit.
https://newstalk941.com/white-co-hunters-against-twra-clear-cutting-of-bridgestone-wild-area/
Link to Rep Sherrells FB regarding meeting (note the video no longer exists)

https://www.facebook.com/Rep.Paul.Sherrell/
Here is the text of the email I sent.

We are writing to express our concerns regarding the TWRA's plan to clearcut a huge swath of mature hardwood forest at the Bridgestone Firestone WMA in an attempt to expand the quail habitat there. We first heard of this on the radio last week while visiting our property in Van Buren County, then saw on Facebook where you were involved in addressing your local constituents concerns in this regard. Although we do not reside in your district my wife and I are frequent users of this property for hiking, and as a regular Sportsman License holder I sometimes hunt there as well. We would like to chime in with our opposition to this project.

We were hiking at Bridgestone this spring and were shocked at the "war zone " appearance of the property just south of the Virgin Falls trailhead. All of what was once a nice pine forest had been clearcut, leaving just open broomsedge and logging slag, and it was already starting to erode. We also noticed that there had been proscribed burning done in the hardwood sections, and with apparently no controls to keep it out of the hollows and into the fragile Hemlock forested areas. As you may be aware, Hemlock forests nationwide are dying off and may be going the way of the American Chestnut due to the wooly adelgid. Then on top of that we now hear that a thousand of acres of mature hardwood is planned for clearcut as well.

Bridgestone WMA is one of the few areas in middle tennessee where outdoors folks can enjoy the experience of "big woods" hiking and hunting. In our opinion it would be practically criminal to have much of it all cut down, especially since the plan isn't to restore it but rather to turn it into "pine savannah" for "quail habitat". As I understand the TWRAs quail plan, they are essentially attempting to turn lands intended for public hunting into regional "quail sanctuaries", with a target population of 1 quail per 4 acres, with only limited hunting if any until the target populations are reached.. Or to put it another way, a 1000 acre hardwood forest that can support maybe a hundred deer and turkeys, and thousands of squirrels, will be destroyed in the future hope that maybe 250 quail will someday live there. Further, what makes this seem even more nonsensical is that Bridgestone WMA already has thousands of acres of quail habitat, and practically no quail. There is a roughly 700 acre open field area around the maintenance shops that only offers limited hunting. Then there are several thousand acres of pine planation and scrub fields to the south of the river and Scotts Gulf; ideal quail habitat, but again very few quail. Then there are the open fields to the west in the Big Bottom area along the Caney Fork, but that area seems mainly to be managed as open pasture for wild hogs to root in. In other words, Bridgestone already has lots of quail habitat, but due to TWRA mismanagement, there are likely more wild hogs than quail. We see no reason whatsoever for the TWRA to intentionally destroy these perfectly good hardwood forests in a futile attempt to reestablish a sanctuary for a species in numbers that are just not viable in todays environment of exploding coyote and bobcat and hawk/owl populations that will always outnumber the quail themselves, especially on what is intended to be hunting land for the use of and paid for by hunters.

 

[Antler Daddy]

You can watch state representative discuss it with commission at last meeting and hear the responses from biologists, etc.

 

[jlanecr500]

I think it is an awesome idea. Every form of hunting has taken a back seat to deer and turkey hunting for far too long. It is time to shift the focus. Have you read the new quail management plan?
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/quail-in-tennessee.htmlI'm a deer hunter but I'm also a bird hunter. I tend to take my dogs on private land because bird season and deer season coincide. I'd hate for a deer hunter to shoot one of my dogs that is legally bird hunting. I'd have to claim self defense.

 

[CFAZ]

I think it is an awesome idea. Every form of hunting has taken a back seat to deer and turkey hunting for far too long. It is time to shift the focus. Have you read the new quail management plan?
https://www.tn.gov/twra/hunting/quail-in-tennessee.htmlI'm a deer hunter but I'm also a bird hunter. I tend to take my dogs on private land because bird season and deer season coincide. I'd hate for a deer hunter to shoot one of my dogs that is legally bird hunting. I'd have to claim self defense.

I grew up quail hunting back towards the twilight of the heyday back in the late 1960s.. My dad raised English Setters, advertised his kennel and bloodlines in Outdoor Life and Sports Afield, along with some other trade mag I can't remember. We attended field trials and had a bunch of trophies. i used to help train the dogs on our own land using the quail we raised in our call back pens (to the newbies - you kept a chocolate chip cookie quail in a pen with a cone shaped funnel ramp that would call the covey (most of the anyway), back to the pen after you were done training for the day). So while I too like quail hunting, I pretty much consider those days as gone. nomatter how much habitat you have, there aint ever gonna be no quail again in numbers like those days without put and take stocking and feeding. Especially on the plateau.

In one 2 week camera run this summer on CFAZ i had 35 bobcat pics, a ton of coyotes, several foxes, and one bear. Back in the day there were fewer bobcats, zero coyotes, where I lived there was a bounty on hawks and owls, There already is tons of quail habitat on the plateau, even on Bridgestone, but very few quail, and its gonna always be that way so long as the predators outnumber the quail, which they always will.

Now of course, although I have a forestry degree from long ago in a galaxy far far away, I aint no government biologist,. But on the other hand, I never thought it would be a good idea to stock alewife, or pay farmers to plant Kudzu either.

 

[mike243]

I see nothing good about pines , Hemlocks are a different breed imo, no mismanagement from twra on hogs, blame the folks who hauled them in and turned them loose. I think that any person trespassing onto a WMA needs to pony up some $ for the right . Seen the game warden blast 3 bike riders yesterday and told them it was a $350 fine while hunting was in progress at Forks of The River. also Pody has nothing in the fight as Dekalb county is his farthest east county as far as I can see.

 

[mike243]

Never in my life have I seen a bounty or heard of 1 on any bird of prey in modern times

 

[jlanecr500]

I grew up quail hunting back towards the twilight of the heyday back in the late 1960s.. My dad raised English Setters, advertised his kennel and bloodlines in Outdoor Life and Sports Afield, along with some other trade mag I can't remember. We attended field trials and had a bunch of trophies. i used to help train the dogs on our own land using the quail we raised in our call back pens (to the newbies - you kept a **** quail in a pen with a cone shaped funnel ramp that would call the covey (most of the anyway), back to the pen after you were done training for the day). So while I too like quail hunting, I pretty much consider those days as gone. nomatter how much habitat you have, there aint ever gonna be no quail again in numbers like those days without put and take stocking and feeding. Especially on the plateau.

In one 2 week camera run this summer on CFAZ i had 35 bobcat pics, a ton of coyotes, several foxes, and one bear. Back in the day there were fewer bobcats, zero coyotes, where I lived there was a bounty on hawks and owls, There already is tons of quail habitat on the plateau, even on Bridgestone, but very few quail, and its gonna always be that way so long as the predators outnumber the quail, which they always will.

Now of course, although I have a forestry degree from long ago in a galaxy far far away, I aint no government biologist,. But on the other hand, I never thought it would be a good idea to stock alewife, or pay farmers to plant Kudzu either.

I'm not going to post a long drawn out spill. Just because you are done with quail hunting does not mean everyone is. I will gladly support the initiative that is being put forth by TWRA. It is long overdue.

There is a lot of public hunting property in your area. Bledsoe state forest for starters. I suggest you explore.

I'm here in the east and have seen huge clear-cut areas done and while we were against it at first, they have proven beneficial.

 

[CFAZ]

More thought same subject.

This thread is about a clearcut of a hardwood forest on Bridgestone. In other words, peoples deer hunting and hiking spots in this spot are getting stripped. If the TWRA wants to expand quail habitat for their (what I consider) an experiment, they should either buy more land or or just just clear the pines south of the Caney Fork that are on WMA land and leave the hardwood be. There is also a ton of newly purchased state land in the area as Fall Creek Falls has been expanding north in the Dry Cove/ Camps Gulf area, and there is now the Dog Cove area too.

My comments on TWRA regarding hog management pertains to my disagreement regarding banning of hunting except during deer season. Different subject entirely, but between only being able to kill hogs during deer season on Bridgestone, and expansion of the no hunting areas like Fall Creek Falls, Dog Cove, Lost Creek, the Chestnut Mtn, area,, etc..., then throw in Bledsoe and the TWRA managed to create the worlds largest International Wild Hog Sanctuary with populations mainly controlled by gov.org trappers. But I digress and would hate to see my clearcut thread hijacked for wild hog mgt,

 

[CFAZ]

I'm not going to post a long drawn out spill. Just because you are done with quail hunting does not mean everyone is. I will gladly support the initiative that is being put forth by TWRA. It is long overdue.

There is a lot of public hunting property in your area. Bledsoe state forest for starters. I suggest you explore.

I'm here in the east and have seen huge clear-cut areas done and while we were against it at first, they have proven beneficial.

One of my favorite ways to hunt deer is stalk hunting and that needs big woods with not many people. Bridgestone is pretty good for that, but my favorite is Bear Hollow Mtn, especially if you drop below the bluffs off the flat you can have a great big woods hunting experience even on a weekend.

I would submit that it is reasonable to not expect quail management to be an either/or situation - in that our choices is that the TWRA whacks down one set of folks deer/hiking woods to make quail habitat for another set of folks.

Surely it is reasonable for us to expect the TWRA to provide both without taking away from any? Especially if it is possible...

 

[CFAZ]

I see nothing good about pines , Hemlocks are a different breed imo, no mismanagement from twra on hogs, blame the folks who hauled them in and turned them loose. I think that any person trespassing onto a WMA needs to pony up some $ for the right . Seen the game warden blast 3 bike riders yesterday and told them it was a $350 fine while hunting was in progress at Forks of The River. also Pody has nothing in the fight as Dekalb county is his farthest east county as far as I can see.

Senator Pody represents his constituents interests and I am one of them. Probably many others in his district use Bridgestone as well.

Agree 100% on folks using WMAs should have to pony up like the rest of us. The area is actually called The Bridgestone Firestone Centennial Wilderness WMA and gets used by a lot of hikers as well as hunters. Somehow I don't see Wilderness and Pine Savannah being the same thing. I suppose some biologist might try to say that Pine Savannah was the natural habitat for that area of the plateau, but then again, right next door is Chestnut Mtn, which is a pretty good clue of what the habitat looked like when white people first showed up.

 

[mike243]

The Indians kept a lot of that area burnt off so the grass lands would hold more buffalo ect , wouldn't hurt my feelings if it was managed only for birds as deer are in no danger of extinction

 

[Chaneylake]

IMO, clear cutting never hurt the deer population, it only weaned out the weaker hunters.

 

[CFAZ]

Never in my life have I seen a bounty or heard of 1 on any bird of prey in modern times

IMO, clear cutting never hurt the deer population, it only weaned out the weaker hunters.

The plan isn't to clearcut it and let it reestablish itself, but rather to turn it into pine savannah,

 

[CFAZ]

The Indians kept a lot of that area burnt off so the grass lands would hold more buffalo ect , wouldn't hurt my feelings if it was managed only for birds as deer are in no danger of extinction

Then Chestnut Mtn must be Indian for pine savanah.

 

[CFAZ]

Never in my life have I seen a bounty or heard of 1 on any bird of prey in modern times

I was referring to back in the heyday of quail hunting. I recall my dad talking about a bounty being on hawks and owls, which it probably was when he was kid. I don't know whether it was still around when I was growing up in the 60s, but they certainly shot every one they saw. Can't ask him about it as he has been gone now over 40 years, but there is no denying there are a lot more hawks and owls now than there was back then, along with every other predator.

Speaking of which - I forgot to mention another common predator that back then was kill on site but is now a protected species. Snakes. I used to find them all the time in our quail pens during nesting season with little lumps where they had swallowed the eggs. Back then we killed every one we saw. Now thats illegal.

I tend not to belleve gov.org biologists when they say that quail can come back in enough numbers to overcome the massive amount of predators they face nowadays, AND support enough human hunting to justify clearing out perfectly good hardwood forests that support a ton of other species. Been around too long, seen too much of the fashionable science dejour come and go (before it was global warming it was global cooling],


Like I stated previously, want to experiment with quail habitat? There are several thousand acres of mature pine on the exact same WMA that could be cleared without bothering the hardwoods.

 

[MickThompson]

Agree 100% on folks using WMAs should have to pony up like the rest of us. The area is actually called The Bridgestone Firestone Centennial Wilderness WMA and gets used by a lot of hikers as well as hunters. Somehow I don't see Wilderness and Pine Savannah being the same thing. I suppose some biologist might try to say that Pine Savannah was the natural habitat for that area of the plateau, but then again, right next door is Chestnut Mtn, which is a pretty good clue of what the habitat looked like when white people first showed up.

Chestnut Mountain and Bridgestone (same tract historically owned by Bridgestone before the wma was donated) is a fine example of what 100 years of fire suppression will do to the plateau. The first European explorers wrote about great prairies on the plateau. It used to be home to bison, elk, and prairie grouse- none of which call a forest home.

If you'd give it a chance you'll probably find the best hunting on public land on the plateau in 5-10 years for deer and turkeys.

 

[CFAZ]

Chestnut Mountain and Bridgestone (same tract historically owned by Bridgestone before the wma was donated) is a fine example of what 100 years of fire suppression will do to the plateau. The first European explorers wrote about great prairies on the plateau. It used to be home to bison, elk, and prairie grouse- none of which call a forest home.

If you'd give it a chance you'll probably find the best hunting on public land on the plateau in 5-10 years for deer and turkeys.

Well as I understand the plan they don't plan to restock it with bison, elk or prairie grouse. Or even quail for that matter, just turn it into a broomsedge and pine (and knowing White and VB County maybe some kudzu) and let nature take its course. There may be a few more quail likely not enough to matter, but certainly fewer deer, fewer turkeys, fewer squirrels, the hogs will just move down into the Gulf,

 

[MickThompson]

It's not a "quail experiment", although there is a research project going on out there. Quail is the most studied species. They know what to do.

And it's not just about quail. Early successional habitat has declined by 90%+ and has been severely fragmented. There are hundreds of other species, some federally threatened or endangered, that will benefit from this. Fact is, early successional/grassland ecosystems are on the brink of collapse. Don't believe me? Check out the Southern Grasslands Initiative at APSU.

It will look different, but it will produce more deer, more turkeys, and bigger bucks. Andy can't we have a little corner on 1 wma managed specifically for rabbits and quail?

I take my dogs there during training season- I'm a licensed hunter, I support the conservation there, but currently can't even hunt it- when do we get a seat at the table? My training season is closed during all the deer hunts, after all.

 

[CFAZ]

It's not a "quail experiment", although there is a research project going on out there. Quail is the most studied species. They know what to do.

And it's not just about quail. Early successional habitat has declined by 90%+ and has been severely fragmented. There are hundreds of other species, some federally threatened or endangered, that will benefit from this. Fact is, early successional/grassland ecosystems are on the brink of collapse. Don't believe me? Check out the Southern Grasslands Initiative at APSU.

It look different, but it will produce more deer, more turkeys, and bigger bucks,

And where have "they" been successful in creating sustainable quail hunting without put and take stocking and supplemental feeding?

I could care less about successional grasslands. I like forests. The big woods.

Early successional woods are very healthy for deer. First you get the sun loving redbud, sumac, etc,, closely followed by tulip poplar, and the post oaks, Then come the white, red, chinkapin. and chestnut oaks, then finally the beech maple climax forest. All produce mast and browse. Broomsedge is all I ever see in these projects, and the only thing that does well in broomsedge is well, broomsedge.

 

[MickThompson]

So it's not about what's good or right for the resource, it's about your personal aesthetic...

You have 90k acres of forest on catoosa. How many 1000's at fall creek falls under state parks control that won't ever be managed? There will still be, what, at least 15k acres of forest left of Bridgestone? How about what the Corps land around Dale Hollow and Center Hill?

I like deer hunting in sagegrass fields and briar patches. I like quail. I like rabbits. I like woodcock. What makes you "righter" than me?

Why should every square inch be managed directly against the species of wildlife that TWRA is also charged with protecting, that are in steepest decline?

 

[CFAZ]

So it's not about what's good or right for the resource, it's about your personal aesthetic...

You have 90k acres of forest on catoosa. How many 1000's at fall creek falls under state parks control that won't ever be managed? There will still be, what, at least 15k acres of forest left of Bridgestone? How about what the Corps land around Dale Hollow and Center Hill?

I like deer hunting in sagegrass fields and briar patches. I like quail. I like rabbits. I like woodcock. What makes you "righter" than me?

Why should every square inch be managed directly against the species of wildlife that TWRA is also charged with protecting, that are in steepest decline?

What makes me righter than you is that nobody is wanting to cut down or tear up 1000 acres of your hunting spots, which is perfectly good hardwoods, when there is an even bigger spot of mature pine across the river on the same WMA. Its one thing to develop habitat - its another to destroy existing and make it an either/or.

We don't disagree on the need for more open field hunting areas, I would love to have those too. But rather on tearing up 1000 acres of perfectly good hardwood instead of just clearcutting the pines they already have across the river or better yet buying some of the nearby timber company land that is mostly pine, if not already stripped, and doing their quail thing on that.

 

[Chaneylake]

The plan isn't to clearcut it and let it reestablish itself, but rather to turn it into pine savannah,

Thank you, I fully understand the concern now.

 

[jlanecr500]

So it's not about what's good or right for the resource, it's about your personal aesthetic...

You have 90k acres of forest on catoosa. How many 1000's at fall creek falls under state parks control that won't ever be managed? There will still be, what, at least 15k acres of forest left of Bridgestone? How about what the Corps land around Dale Hollow and Center Hill?

I like deer hunting in sagegrass fields and briar patches. I like quail. I like rabbits. I like woodcock. What makes you "righter" than me?

Why should every square inch be managed directly against the species of wildlife that TWRA is also charged with protecting, that are in steepest decline?

Thank You

 

[CFAZ]

You can watch state representative discuss it with commission at last meeting and hear the responses from biologists, etc.

Thank you for posting this! Not being a social media guy the video of the meeting I referred to in my OP was not available to me. But your post caused me to search around and find it. It is very enlightening and I will post it below.

TWRA had their Assistant Wildlife Chief making the presentation, and Representative Sherrell did a great job of asking about some of the concerns I raised here. But during the presentation I kept thinking to myself "wait a minute - is that TWRA guy lying, clueless, or being intentionally deceptive- that map aint even close to right as I have seen with my OWN EYES more areas clearcut than he laid out in his presentation. His deal was, well, we are just cutting 340 acres of hardwoods around the farm, no big deal, etc. But then at the end one of the local guys got up and called him on it, Well, er, ah, its, ah 340 acres now, but yes, since you ask, our future plans are to cut all the hardwood down to the Virgin Falls parking lot. So yeah, well, ah, that would be over 1000 acres.
What about the areas you already cut - funny look, well, er, ah, that would be 2043 acres total. Meaning the whole flat east of the road and north of the gulf is being cut, and with details like that he wasn't clueless but rather intentionally deceptive. Which IMO is absolutely disgraceful (though hardly surprising) in a public employee. And the final kicker was when the guy asked him if he has 2000 acres south of the river has been managed for quail for the past 22 years and there still aint no quail how will cutting down the hardwoods north of the river help that situation No answer - next topic.

Good video, the deceptiveness is stunning if you have been following what is going on there. Rep Sherrell gets up about the 9 minute mark then the presentation continues with the local guy calling BS on them about the 51 minute mark. Whether you agree with the cut or not, you should all be outraged at the deceptive way they are going about it.

 

[timberjack86]

Have you hunted south Cherokee? Plenty of big woods for you.

 

[mike243]

If you have a small property you can do put and take birds but they found out a long time ago raising birds and turning them loose didn't work, they have no skills to feed or survive , all of these projects are slated for long term results, no over night fix on some things, I'm sure the low deer numbers didn't grow quickly and they were easy to raise and release in other areas , TWRA cant look at today and tomorrow but bet they have a 100 year plan or maybe something more modest as that's their job.

 

[jlanecr500]

First a little about me to show that I'm not an activist and have respect for hunters of all types of game. I grew up in the 70's, squirrel, bird, and occasionally deer hunting. I got into dirtbiking in 78 and it became my life until I got lyme disease turkey hunting in 2012. In 2010 my uncle died of cancer. He was my father figure and mentor who taught me the ways of the outdoorsman. I deeply regret not hunting with him more but I can't go back and change that now. So while I occasionally take a 2 wheeled adventure, I mostly find myself on foot in the woods now days. I am a deer hunter first and foremost. However, I respect all forms of hunting and partake in some of them on occasion. When you take a bird dog afield, it's something everyone should experience. It's like taking your kid hunting except they already know what to do and are giddy when they see that orange collar in your hand.

I just watched the commission meeting on the subject. I've also read the 5 year plan. My take is this:

1) much of these areas on the plateau were once grasslands and early forest where the understory supplied food and cover for all wildlife, including deer and turkey. The thick canopy forests that are there today offer little in the way of food after the acorns are gone. I've had trail cam pictures of deer eating tree bark in the dead of winter. This is why deer numbers are lower where the land is mostly old forest with little to no fields or agriculture. Like west TN has more farming, fields, agriculture, deer, and bigger deer.

We travel to Eglin AFB every Feb for a ml deer hunt. The landscape is much the same as what is planned for this project except in TN there will be more grasses rather than coastal ground cover. Each area is burned every 5 years. If you think the deer are malnourished at Eglin, think again. Every deer I've killed there had more than 1/2" of fat on its back. The pic below is on Eglin. Some areas are more sparcely populated with pines. BTW, the trees a few feet tall with brown leaves are scrub oaks and yes, they produce acorns.

2) in CFAZ's post above about the commission meeting, I'll quote

""""Good video, the deceptiveness is stunning if you have been following what is going on there. Rep Sherrell gets up about the 9 minute mark then the presentation continues with the local guy calling BS on them about the 51 minute mark. Whether you agree with the cut or not, you should all be outraged at the deceptive way they are going about it.""""

Rep Sherrell basically diplomatically proposed not to use the "farm" area. He did a good job.

The local guy, in my opinion, failed to call BS on the commission because there is no BS to be called out. The agency has a solid plan for this restoration project, which that BTW, only includes 1/10th of the wma. When it's all said and done, every game animal will benefit from this project. Basically, he and a group of people do not want that specific area cut period. I suspect it is because of easy access from the road for deer hunting. He even attacked quail and other bird hunters by mentioning that they should have to pay more to hunt wma's. On one hand, they don't want hikers in there but still use the "this project will destroy hiking trails" argument. Just because the trees are cut, what's to stop anyone from using the trails? Sure. I feel all users should contribute to use wma's but that is not today's subject. The way I see it, I purchase a sportsman license every year which is all-inclusive. I pay my fair share. He did a very poor job of presenting his groups proposal and grievances. There is nothing deceptive about this project. Lack of knowledge and selfishness are the only points he displayed before the commission.

 

[CFAZ]

First a little about me I grew up in the 70's, squirrel, bird, and occasionally deer hunting. I got into dirtbiking in 78 and it became my life until I got lyme disease turkey hunting in 2012. In 2010 my uncle died of cancer. He was my father figure and mentor who taught me the ways of the outdoorsman. I deeply regret not hunting with him more but I can't go back and change that now. So while I occasionally take a 2 wheeled adventure, I mostly find myself on foot in the woods now days. I am a deer hunter first and foremost. However, I respect all forms of hunting and partake in some of them on occasion. When you take a bird dog afield, it's something everyone should experience. It's like taking your kid hunting except they already know what to do and are giddy when they see that orange collar in your hand.

I just watched the commission meeting on the subject. I've also read the 5 year plan. My take is this:

1) much of these areas on the plateau were once grasslands and early forest where the understory supplied food and cover for all wildlife, including deer and turkey. The thick canopy forests that are there today offer little in the way of food after the acorns are gone. I've had trail cam pictures of deer eating tree bark in the dead of winter. This is why deer numbers are lower where the land is mostly old forest with little to no fields or agriculture. Like west TN has more farming, fields, agriculture, deer, and bigger deer.

We travel to Eglin AFB every Feb for a ml deer hunt. The landscape is much the same as what is planned for this project except in TN there will be more grasses rather than coastal ground cover. Each area is burned every 5 years. If you think the deer are malnourished at Eglin, think again. Every deer I've killed there had more than 1/2" of fat on its back. The pic below is on Eglin. Some areas are more sparcely populated with pines. BTW, the trees a few feet tall with brown leaves are scrub oaks and yes, they produce acorns. View attachment 112968

2) in CFAZ's post above, I'll quote

""""Good video, the deceptiveness is stunning if you have been following what is going on there. Rep Sherrell gets up about the 9 minute mark then the presentation continues with the local guy calling BS on them about the 51 minute mark. Whether you agree with the cut or not, you should all be outraged at the deceptive way they are going about it.""""

Rep Sherrell basically diplomatically proposed not to use the "farm" area. He did a good job.

The local guy, in my opinion, failed to call BS on the commission because there is no BS to be called out. The agency has a solid plan for this restoration project, which that BTW, only includes 1/10th of the wma. When it's all said and done, every game animal will benefit from this project. Basically, he and a group of people do not want that specific area cut period. I suspect it is because of easy access from the road for deer hunting. He even attacked quail and other bird hunters by mentioning that they should have to pay more to hunt wma's. On one hand, they don't want hikers in there but still use the "this project will destroy hiking trails" argument. Just because the trees are cut, what's to stop anyone from using the trails? Sure. I feel all users should contribute to use wma's but that is not today's subject. The way I see it, I purchase a sportsman license every year which is all-inclusive. I pay my fair share. He did a very poor job of presenting his groups proposal and grievances. There is nothing deceptive about this project. Lack of knowledge and selfishness are the only points he displayed before the commission.

Based on your post I take it you neither hunt nor hike the area in question. So i shall enlighten you.

Bridgestone WMA is basically Scotts Gulf, with a flat tableland on either side. Scotts Gulf is the headwaters of the Upper Caney Fork River, with then feeds into Great Falls Lake, then Center Hill. The upper Caney is a primo Musky and spotted bass fishery. The Musky are native to the area (pioneers called them jackfish) - just like the walleye and smallmouth throughout the Upper Cumberland. They are ice age relics that have managed to hang on this far south due to the cold clear spring fed waters that come off the plateau and feed the Caney, Collins, and Calfkiller rivers, Cane Creek, etc...

Part and parcel of that ice age relic community is the Canadian Hemlock forests and Rhodendon thickets that are able to thrive at that relatively low elevation and southern latitude because of the unique microclimate created in Scotts Gulf. While the tableland is around 2000 ft elevation, Scotts Gulf is a giant canyon, about 1000 feet deep and maybe a mile across. The sides of the gulf are covered un mixed hardwood, mostly steep as heck, with the Hemlock community forests in the bottom,. When they tell you most of the land is being left in hardwood they are referring to Scotts Gulf. There are only 2 road entrances to the gulf from the North - Scotts Gulf road is the only one continuously open, and Ambers Den Road is gated and locked most of the year. If they cut all the hardwood off the tableland the only ground left to hunt big woods will be the Gulf itself, which in many places would be like trying to hunt the sides of the Grand Canyon. And with only 1 or 2 road access points. You cannot get down by trail due to the bluff line, The Virgin Falls trail follows the Laurel Creek hollow down, but that is protected territory and a 4mile steep hike in before you would hit the river bottom anyway.

The 1000 acre area marked for cutting is part of the hardwood plateau, and it is a very nice looking forest. It also contains several hollows feeding the gulf, and in those hollows are the Hemlock and Rhodendron forests. This area is accessed by the Upper and Lower Polly Branch Falls trails, as well as the Yellow Bluff trail, This is part of the 20 mile trails that will be affected by the clearcut, that the TWRA guys just did a low down yankee liar thing when said no trails would be affected. One reason the Hemlocks are able to survive at that elevation in the Polly Falls area is the Northeast aspect, limiting sunlight when combined with the existing hardwood forest. If you know anything about Hemlock/Rhodendron, esp at that relative low altitude, you will note they create their own self sustaining micro climate, making it noticably cooler and moister under their canopy, which allows them to regenerate themselves, If you strip out the surrounding hardwood, that fragile community balance that has existed since the last ice age will be stripped away, and its unlikely they will sustain themselves.
Although they state they will leave a hardwood boundary around the riparian areas, from what I have seen already it is not big enough to sustain the Hemlocks, Then throw in the fact that they will be doing prescribed burns to maintain the savannah, which of course will get down into the riparian areas, and thats the end of those communities. Then throw in the Hemlock Wooly Adelgid problems, and it basically game over for these communities that have existed since the ice age.

Nobody has to take my word for any of this. Just drive past the Virgin Falls trailhead, stop at the Yellow Bluff trailhead and walk to the overlook. You will see all the stripped ground plus the prescribed burn in the hardwoods. From the overlook walk downhill another 100 yds and there is a small creek crossing, with a Hemlock community on either side. You will see both burned Hemlocks plus the telltale white spots on the Hemlock branches that indicates a wooly adelgid infestation. Those areas will die off, open up, Ailanthus will sprout up all over (that invasive crap you see all over, variously called Tree of Heaven, Ghetto Palm, etc depends on where you live)

While you may have a lot of confidence in TWRA biologists and foresters I simply do not based on my experience, both from hiking all through the area and from experiences on my own land. They can sound pretty convincing if you don't know any better, but most of what they do is actually agenda driven, and the needs of hunters are not necessarily part of that agenda. Maybe 20 years ago I would have confidence in the gov,org types, but after 50 plus years of watching them do the layers of retardation thing time and again, one just doubts everything they say. (like the guy trying to convince everyone a 2000 acre clearcut was only 320 acres, lying abut the trails, and even had a fake map to back himself up)

Essentially I consider the TWRA to be like a Homeowners Association for wildlife. The people that want to get involved always do so for power, money, influence, etc... while the people that you would actually want involved don't value those things so they never get involved.

One more thing. To me this isn't about my hunting territory. I am fortunate in that I have deer in my back yard every morning and evening munching my garden or landscaping, I can stick one anytime I want, drag it into my garage, string it up, skin and butcher it, and keep the freezer full. But that is harvesting not hunting. I am also fortunate in that I have my own place to do my traditional deer hunting too. I could never hunt or hike Bridgestone again and our lifestyle would be unnaffected. This is actually about all those folks who don't have any big woods to hunt in, and get away from all the crowds. Or those folks that rarely get to experience the temperature difference walking through a Rhodendron thicket under a Hemlock canopy on a warm summer day. And of course maintaining the quality and composition of waters coming off the plateau and feeding the headwaters streams, that despite what the HOA is telling you, have been unchanged since the last ice age.

 

[CFAZ]

And one more thing. After they cut all that you are still not going to able to run your dogs or hunt birds there. It will for all intents and purposes be a quail sanctuary for your lifetime. Likely just like area across the river, a quail sanctuary with more hogs than quail, but a defacto sanctuary nonetheless. They will never allow quail hunting there until the target numbers are reached, and if that was going to ever happen it would have already as folks have been at it for decades.

 

[jlanecr500]

Based on your post I take it you neither hunt nor hike the area in question. So i shall enlighten you.

Bridgestone WMA is basically Scotts Gulf, with a flat tableland on either side. Scotts Gulf is the headwaters of the Upper Caney Fork River, with then feeds into Great Falls Lake, then Center Hill. The upper Caney is a primo Musky and spotted bass fishery. The Musky are native to the area (pioneers called them jackfish) - just like the walleye and smallmouth throughout the Upper Cumberland. They are ice age relics that have managed to hang on this far south due to the cold clear spring fed waters that come off the plateau and feed the Caney, Collins, and Calfkiller rivers, Cane Creek, etc...

Part and parcel of that ice age relic community is the Canadian Hemlock forests and Rhodendon thickets that are able to thrive at that relatively low elevation and southern latitude because of the unique microclimate created in Scotts Gulf. While the tableland is around 2000 ft elevation, Scotts Gulf is a giant canyon, about 1000 feet deep and maybe a mile across. The sides of the gulf are covered un mixed hardwood, mostly steep as heck, with the Hemlock community forests in the bottom,. When they tell you most of the land is being left in hardwood they are referring to Scotts Gulf. There are only 2 road entrances to the gulf from the North - Scotts Gulf road is the only one continuously open, and Ambers Den Road is gated and locked most of the year. If they cut all the hardwood off the tableland the only ground left to hunt big woods will be the Gulf itself, which in many places would be like trying to hunt the sides of the Grand Canyon. And with only 1 or 2 road access points. You cannot get down by trail due to the bluff line, The Virgin Falls trail follows the Laurel Creek hollow down, but that is protected territory and a 4mile steep hike in before you would hit the river bottom anyway.

The 1000 acre area marked for cutting is part of the hardwood plateau, and it is a very nice looking forest. It also contains several hollows feeding the gulf, and in those hollows are the Hemlock and Rhodendron forests. This area is accessed by the Upper and Lower Polly Branch Falls trails, as well as the Yellow Bluff trail, This is part of the 20 mile trails that will be affected by the clearcut, that the TWRA guys just did a low down yankee liar thing when said no trails would be affected. One reason the Hemlocks are able to survive at that elevation in the Polly Falls area is the Northeast aspect, limiting sunlight when combined with the existing hardwood forest. If you know anything about Hemlock/Rhodendron, esp at that relative low altitude, you will note they create their own self sustaining micro climate, making it noticably cooler and moister under their canopy, which allows them to regenerate themselves, If you strip out the surrounding hardwood, that fragile community balance that has existed since the last ice age will be stripped away, and its unlikely they will sustain themselves.
Although they state they will leave a hardwood boundary around the riparian areas, from what I have seen already it is not big enough to sustain the Hemlocks, Then throw in the fact that they will be doing prescribed burns to maintain the savannah, which of course will get down into the riparian areas, and thats the end of those communities. Then throw in the Hemlock Wooly Adelgid problems, and it basically game over for these communities that have existed since the ice age.

Nobody has to take my word for any of this. Just drive past the Virgin Falls trailhead, stop at the Yellow Bluff trailhead and walk to the overlook. You will see all the stripped ground plus the prescribed burn in the hardwoods. From the overlook walk downhill another 100 yds and there is a small creek crossing, with a Hemlock community on either side. You will see both burned Hemlocks plus the telltale white spots on the Hemlock branches that indicates a wooly adelgid infestation. Those areas will die off, open up, Ailanthus will sprout up all over (that invasive crap you see all over, variously called Tree of Heaven, Ghetto Palm, etc depends on where you live)

While you may have a lot of confidence in TWRA biologists and foresters I simply do not based on my experience, both from hiking all through the area and from experiences on my own land. They can sound pretty convincing if you don't know any better, but most of what they do is actually agenda driven, and the needs of hunters are not necessarily part of that agenda. Maybe 20 years ago I would have confidence in the gov,org types, but after 50 plus years of watching them do the layers of retardation thing time and again, one just doubts everything they say. (like the guy trying to convince everyone a 2000 acre clearcut was only 320 acres, lying abut the trails, and even had a fake map to back himself up)

Essentially I consider the TWRA to be like a Homeowners Association for wildlife. The people that want to get involved always do so for power, money, influence, etc... while the people that you would actually want involved don't value those things so they never get involved.

One more thing. To me this isn't about my hunting territory. I am fortunate in that I have deer in my back yard every morning and evening munching my garden or landscaping, I can stick one anytime I want, drag it into my garage, string it up, skin and butcher it, and keep the freezer full. But that is harvesting not hunting. I am also fortunate in that I have my own place to do my traditional deer hunting too. I could never hunt or hike Bridgestone again and our lifestyle would be unnaffected. This is actually about all those folks who don't have any big woods to hunt in, and get away from all the crowds. Or those folks that rarely get to experience the temperature difference walking through a Rhodendron thicket under a Hemlock canopy on a warm summer day. And of course maintaining the quality and composition of waters coming off the plateau and feeding the headwaters streams, that despite what the HOA is telling you, have been unchanged since the last ice age.

I certainly am glad you took time to enlighten me. I'm beginning to think you're a hiker posing as a hunter in order to garner support on this forum. You assume theat we have never hunted or hiked the area but you are mistaken. Until a few years ago, I was on a lease at the Gulf so I know a lot more about the hunting, fishing, and hiking opportunities in that area than you give credit for.

I've said what I have to say. Obviously the fight for you is only beginning. Perhaps you can garner more support from an equestrian forum. By the way, talking down to and talking trash on the agency will get you nowhere with them. Perhaps you should attempt to compromise with the agency rather than dictate.